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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5 (Read 142723 times)
FightingDragon
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Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #12 - 07/04/06 at 09:12:14
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It won't be a problem, though.
Golubev briefly gives 15. ... Rb8 16.Qc5! and analyses 15. ... Bf5 which leads to a white advantage in the endgame after 16.Qc5! Qc5: 17.Nc5: Nc3 18.Re1 Na2: 19.Kb2 Nb4 20.Bc4!! which is known since van der Wiel-Golubev, 1999.
And I don't think you want to defend that endgame, Scholar, do you?  Wink
In Chess Today, Mikhail admits that he overlooked van den Doel-Rogers, Dutch Cht 2004 which went 15. ... Qc7 16.Bc4 Rd8 17.g4?! Be6 ... and white hardly had a serious advantage.
Black must also be prepared to meet 16.h4!?
By the way, can you explain the idea of 15. ... Qc7 to me?
Isn't it just a loss of tempo compared to 13. ... Qc7  ?
The knight could be well placed on a4 since his ideal place is c5 in that pawn structure.
  
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Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #11 - 07/04/06 at 01:25:28
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I'm kinda glad to be seeing 13...Qb6 of course some variations of 13...Qc7 were discussed here http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1078502585. ; Hopefully both sides have a copy of "Experts vs. the Sicilian" so they can compare GM Golubev's analysis with their own.  I have to confess I still don't have a copy and I believe a second revised (I think it's revised anyway) is already available.  Anyway, I too will follow this game with interest.


Sadly, I do not.  By the time I got close to purchasing the first, the second edition was already announced, and so I am waiting for that one to be released (if I understand correctly, any day now...).  I do not think that we will follow known lines for very long, but it would be good to see what ideas he has there for White, and maybe improvements for Black on the lines that I am familiar with, especially if 15...Qc7 appears.
  
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Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #10 - 07/03/06 at 21:21:28
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As far as I know, 14.Na4 is the only choice for white to fight for an advantage.
All other tries are less dangerous. By the way, against 14.Nd5: cd5: 15.Qd5:, I think 15. ... Bf5 is even stronger, with initiative for black.
After 14.Na4 Qa5 15.b3, Scholar must make up his mind what he wants to play.
Possible moves include 15. ... Bf5, 15. ... Be6 and 15. ... Qc7.
He has already annonced that he would probably play Qc7.
I am not sure which move is best, perhaps we will find out?!?
  
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Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #9 - 07/03/06 at 20:00:46
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14. Nxd5 cxd5 15. Qxd5 reminds me too much of the line (after 11...bxc6) 12. Nxd5 cxd5 13. Qxd5 where I think Black has very good compensation for the pawn.  In fact, I think the deferred gambit (i.e., 14. Nxd5) looks, if anything, even better for Black even though the dark-squared bishops have been exchanged (e.g., 15...Be6 looks good).  So I will rule out 14. Nxd5.

14. Qxb6 axb6 and then 15. Nxd5 cxd5 doesn't win a pawn because opening the a-file leaves the a2-pawn hanging.  After 16. a3 Black protects d5 and White might be able to take advantage of the isolated b-pawn, but the whole idea looks pretty dull.  My impression is that Black can easily defend b6 (which is not an trivial target to get to in the first place) and also get some active play with his kingside/central majority.  I suppose the drawishness of 14. Qxb6 could be considered a small drawback of the 13...Qb6 line, at least in a tournament situation where Black needs to play for a win.  But 13...Qc7 is a good option in such a situation so this is not a drawback of 12...Bxd4 overall.

14. Bc4 is an interesting move, played in Sutovsky-Kudrin, World Open, Philadelphia  1993.  This is the only game I could find.  Anyone know of any others?

I think I've narrowed it down to 14. Na4 or 14. Bc4.  I will look at these and come up with a choice by Wednesday.
  

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Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #8 - 07/03/06 at 16:24:08
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By the way:

There is some interesting discussion of 13...Qc7 (the alternative mentioned by Scholar) in the thread:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1078502585

Edit:
This is redundant.  Sorry Frendo, I somehow missed your post when I wrote this one.
« Last Edit: 07/03/06 at 20:14:53 by OstapBender »  

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Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #7 - 07/03/06 at 16:09:33
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http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r1b2rk1/p3pp1p/1qp3p1/3n4...

Hi Scholar,

I'm leaning toward 14.Na4 but I want to take a look at other options (like 14.Nxd5) first before committing to this.  Next couple of days are busy for me, so I may not get a chance to post my move before Wednesday.

Cheers,
Ostap

In the meantime maybe some observers would like to state their opinions or make suggestions...
  

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Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #6 - 07/03/06 at 16:01:54
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I'm kinda glad to be seeing 13...Qb6 of course some variations of 13...Qc7 were discussed here http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1078502585.  Hopefully both sides have a copy of "Experts vs. the Sicilian" so they can compare GM Golubev's analysis with their own.  I have to confess I still don't have a copy and I believe a second revised (I think it's revised anyway) is already available.  Anyway, I too will follow this game with interest.
  
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Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #5 - 07/03/06 at 15:54:42
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FightingDragon wrote on 07/03/06 at 08:34:08:
Great, a dragon game in the forum!  Smiley
Of course I will observe very closely how it develops.
Is it possible for other people to make suggestions for both sides?

Yes, by all means.  Participation from observers (move suggestions, analysis, kibitzing in general) is definitely possible - and strongly encouraged.  This game (and others like it I hope) is modeled after the BDG Challenge Matches which took place about a year ago:

Schoupal-Bonsai http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1117050810

Schoupal-Prie http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1118074494

Schoupal-MNb http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1116522162

ArKheiN-Markovich http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1120575514

A more recent (and ongoing) game is:
Willempie-HgMan http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1151070318

Take a glance at these game and you'll have a pretty good idea of what we're aiming for here.

  

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Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #4 - 07/03/06 at 08:34:08
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Great, a dragon game in the forum!  Smiley
Of course I will observe very closely how it develops.
Is it possible for other people to make suggestions for both sides?
  
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Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #3 - 07/03/06 at 06:18:26
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OstapBender wrote on 07/03/06 at 03:47:20:
Take you time.  I think both of the options you mentioned (12...Bxd4 and teyko's 24...c5 in the main line following 12...e5) are great choices.  A nice thing about teyko's move is that we have a lot of analysis which developed in the thread you cited, but still no practical examples - at least, as far as I know.  If you want to spend some time weighing the pros and cons of these two very different choices, by all means feel free to do so.

Incidentally, with regard to the teyko's 24...c5, I'd be willing to agree to start from this position if that's an option you'd like to consider.


It's true that there are no practical examples, but I've already invested a lot of time in those positions, and so I'd rather look at something else first.  Perhaps the next test match on this forum can begin with 24...c5; for now, I prefer to learn something about 12...Bxd4 (and perhaps will be convinced to return to the 12...e5 mainlines as a result).

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.f3 Bg7 7.Be3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6

The main alternative here is 13...Qc7, and I do not have a concrete reason to prefer one to the other.
  
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Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #2 - 07/03/06 at 03:47:20
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Scholar wrote on 07/03/06 at 01:27:54:
Ostap, I will ask for your patience during this coming week, which because of the holiday (not to mention the World Cup) leaves me less time for chess than usual.

No problem.  I also have a lot going on in the next week or so and, in any event, feel that there is no need to hurry this along.
Quote:
I'll post my move in a few hours

Take you time.  I think both of the options you mentioned (12...Bxd4 and teyko's 24...c5 in the main line following 12...e5) are great choices.  A nice thing about teyko's move is that we have a lot of analysis which developed in the thread you cited, but still no practical examples - at least, as far as I know.  If you want to spend some time weighing the pros and cons of these two very different choices, by all means feel free to do so.

Incidentally, with regard to the teyko's 24...c5, I'd be willing to agree to start from this position if that's an option you'd like to consider.
  

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Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #1 - 07/03/06 at 01:27:54
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Black has some choices at move 12.

It is no secret from my other posts that I think that 12...Nxc3 is dubious (although I have moderated my opinion somewhat -- my view now is that it might be the worst of the three moves, but is probably playable) and that 12...e5 leads to complications which I am not convinced favor Black.  Perhaps for a discussion game of this sort it would be best to play 12...e5, in part because I think that it would attact some more observers.

However, http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1122802309 contains lots of analysis of Teyko's suggestion of 24...c5 in the absolute main line (13.Bc5 Be6 14.Ne4 Re8 15.h4 h6 16.g4 Qc7 17.g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19.Qf2 Qb7 20.Rhe1 Nf4 21.Bxe6 Nxe6 22.Bd6 Rd7 23.Rd2 Rad8 24.Red1 c5 25.c4 Qb4), and although my recollection is a bit hazy, I think that at the end of the day I thought Black was OK, although the lines don't really suit my tastes (poor piece play for Black, many ideas for White, study-like endgame play required to hold various draws).  At this point, I could probably play the Black side of a game in this line by simply following my analysis there -- and it would be interesting to see where improvements have been found (or if you would choose some sideline)...

You are right to note that I've more typically promoted 12...Bxd4 as a simple approach for Black which has had very few practical tests in recent times, both at the highest levels as well as in my own praxis.  I am tempted to choose this route in part because I've done very little work on this move, but think that it would be a more reliable path OTB.  The game continuation would probably be 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15.b3 Qc7.

Ostap, I will ask for your patience during this coming week, which because of the holiday (not to mention the World Cup) leaves me less time for chess than usual.

I'll post my move in a few hours.
  
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OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
07/02/06 at 22:28:23
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Hello Scholar,

I'm looking forward to our game and discussion on the Dragon, an opening which I've alway found challenging to face with the white pieces - but not enough to drive me down the Anti-Sicilian path.  There are too many Open Sicilian lines that I love playing the white pieces with and am unwilling to give up!

The starting moves we agreed upon are:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. O-O-O d5

My response is

10. exd5

and I propose that if 10...Nxd5 then we continue with 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4

and if 12...Bxd4 then 13.Qxd4 (but maybe I am anticipating too much?)  Grin

Cheers,

Ostap
  

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