Latest Updates:
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5 (Read 142724 times)
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #327 - 05/25/08 at 19:55:01
Post Tools
Did it even reach the middlegame?  Link here:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1154029852
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10716
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #326 - 05/25/08 at 19:14:11
Post Tools
That one hardly reached the middle game.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Viking
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 673
Location: Norway
Joined: 10/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #325 - 05/25/08 at 18:49:52
Post Tools
There was also a smith morra gambit game...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #324 - 05/25/08 at 14:45:53
Post Tools
There was also a Caro-Kann, Advanced Variation game between Willempie and HgMan:

http://www.chesspublishing.com/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1151070318

This game and the two I played in were concurrent.  The BDG games took place about a year earlier:

http://www.chesspublishing.com/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1120575514
http://www.chesspublishing.com/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1116522162
http://www.chesspublishing.com/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1118074494
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10716
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #323 - 05/25/08 at 11:16:58
Post Tools
There are two or three BDG games.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Chevalier
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 265
Joined: 04/11/08
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #322 - 05/25/08 at 03:47:01
Post Tools
How many such games between two ChessPub members on the ChessPub forum have been played before? I can only recall this one and a game between OstapBender and SmyslovFan.

  

Nothing has meaning or value other than the meaning and value that you give it.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #321 - 05/24/08 at 20:50:22
Post Tools
Although it's been a year or so since I've given any thought to this game, I agree with you that 16.h4 which I played has some drawbacks.  I wouldn't be surprised if White could do better here.

As I recall, 16.c4 is a move I hadn't really given serious consideration to, although my opponent had:
Scholar wrote on 07/11/06 at 07:12:04:
I spent some time with 16.c4 the main idea being Nf4 17.g3 Ne6 and White can now activate his bishop to g2 or h3 as the situation demands, thus Black might play instead 16...Nf6 with the idea of Re8 e5-e4.  I hadn't really come to any concrete conclusions.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
unknown_master
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 23
Joined: 09/15/06
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #320 - 05/24/08 at 15:20:34
Post Tools
Now what can we learn from this game?
I think that 16. h4 was already a slight mistake... After the strong reply 16... h5! I really like Black's position. There is even a piece sacrifice which both of you guys did not calculate properly... Probably 18... Bf5! was nevertheless the best move!

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 Bxd4 13. Qxd4 Qb6 14. Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16. h4 h5 17. c4 Nf4 18. Qe3 Bf5 19. g3 Ne6 20. Rg1 Rfd8 21. g4 Rxd1+ 22. Kxd1 Rd8+ 23. Kc1 and here I don't know if 23... Ng7 oder 23... Nd4 ist the better move but it's clear that if the bishop on f5 is taken Black will get a beautiful compensation on the dark squares (the most likely outcome is a perpetual).

So far the good news for Black.

The bad news is that White can play 16. c4! And here I looked at all 4 knight moves for Black and in each case I'm not convinced of his position. May be we could have a little discussion about this position.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #319 - 11/21/06 at 08:57:13
Post Tools
Nice game chaps Smiley
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #318 - 11/21/06 at 01:24:33
Post Tools
Thanks very much for the game, Ostap.

It was a pleasure to play and analyze with you; you certainly raised the quality of my game.  I haven't had a chance to review the early stages of the opening since we started, but your assessment probably isn't far off the mark -- only future tests can determine the playability of the middlegame.

Until then, I'm happy to have defended the honor of the black pieces and the dragon!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #317 - 11/19/06 at 21:30:41
Post Tools
I haven't had much time the last couple of weeks to analyze the current position (perhaps there is also a problem with incentive Embarrassed), but I see liitle White can do other than postpone the inevitable.

Thus, I think it's time I resigned.  Sorry for taking so long about it - my intention was to not resign without first analyzing the position thoroughly but in the end I think I was just procrastinating.

Well played, Scholar!  Although it seemed (to me at least) that I came out of the opening with a nice advantage, you clearly outplayed me in the latter stages of the game.  I enjoyed the game and learned a lot (hopefully) from the analysis we did as well as from the process of coming up with such analysis.

Congratulations on your victory!

0-1


  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #316 - 11/16/06 at 03:45:11
Post Tools
Thanks Paddy.  I hadn't spotted the Blehm-Charbonneau game; the Kerndl ones were briefly discussed early in the thread.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1752
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #315 - 11/15/06 at 18:46:34
Post Tools
Looking for more games in this line it appears that a player named Rainer Kerndl played this line (15 __ Qc7) 3 times in year 2001 and won one game, lost the second and got a draw the third time. Totally on chessbase.com there where 5 games, 1 white win, 3 draws and 1 black win. Rogozenkos disc has one Kerndls games but no more games on this line.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 954
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #314 - 11/15/06 at 10:12:41
Post Tools
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this recent game using Scholar's line:

[Event "USCL"]
[Site "ICC INT"]
[Date "2006.09.06"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Blehm, P."]
[Black "Charbonneau, P."]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B76"]
[WhiteElo "2511"]
[BlackElo "2501"]
[PlyCount "72"]
[EventDate "2006.08.30"]
[EventType "team"]
[EventRounds "10"]
[Source "Mark Crowther"]
[SourceDate "2006.09.11"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2
O-O 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 Bxd4 13. Qxd4 Qb6 14. Na4
Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16. h4 Bf5 17. g4 e5 18. Qd2 Be6 19. h5 Rad8 20. hxg6 fxg6 21.
Nc5 Nf4 22. Nxe6 Nxe6 23. Bd3 Nd4 24. Qh6 Qg7 25. Qe3 e4 26. fxe4 Rf3 27. Qh6
Nxb3+ 28. axb3 Qa1+ 29. Kd2 Rdxd3+ 30. Ke2 Rfe3+ 31. Qxe3 Rxe3+ 32. Kxe3 Qc3+
33. Kf4 Qf6+ 34. Ke3 Qc3+ 35. Kf4 Qf6+ 36. Ke3 Qc3+ 1/2-1/2
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #313 - 11/02/06 at 08:06:33
Post Tools
Fair enough -- I apologize for my laziness in not working out the lines after 38...Rd2 myself.

I expect 39.Qc3 or 39.Qc4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #312 - 10/28/06 at 16:40:25
Post Tools
Scholar wrote on 10/26/06 at 06:50:30:
I believe that either of my candidate moves is sufficient to win (although I am certainly interested in knowing whether Ostap still considers the position after 38...Rd2 acceptable for White).  Although I could take some more time to make my decision, I will not have time for chess for the next week or so, and thus would rather make a move now rather than delay the game.

I think White's position may be resignable after 38...Rc8.  

If so, then it hardly matters whether the position after 38...Rd2 is acceptable for White.  I thought it was when I decided to play 33.Rxd4, and this was mainly based on 39.Rc1 Qxf3 etc. (IMO 39.Rxd2 is a blunder).  If I look more deeply at 38...Rd2 39.Rc1 h4 I may find that White's task is more difficult than it appeared to be when I first looked at this line.  Unless the rules of the game have recently changed, however, only one winning line is required to take the point – so none of this matters if White cannot hold a draw after 38...Rc8.

I will look a bit more at the current position and decide whether to resign or play on.  Should I play on, candidate moves include 39.Qc3, 39.a4, 39.b4, and 39.c7.  None of these seem to be sufficient based on what I've looked at thus far and the last two may be outright blunders.  39.Qc3 looks like the best try at the moment.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #311 - 10/26/06 at 06:50:30
Post Tools
I believe that either of my candidate moves is sufficient to win (although I am certainly interested in knowing whether Ostap still considers the position after 38...Rd2 acceptable for White).  Although I could take some more time to make my decision, I will not have time for chess for the next week or so, and thus would rather make a move now rather than delay the game.

I choose the more solid of the two options: 38...Rc8 bringing us to the following:


1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2 c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Qxe7 Bc6 26.Qe1 Qd6 27.Ne7+ Kg7 28.Nxc6 Qxc6 29.Kb1 Re8 30.Qc3 Qf6 31.Rd2 Qxh4 32.Rgd1 Qg3 33.Rxd4 cxd4 34.Qxd4+ Kg8 35.Qxa7 Re2 36.c5 Rbe8 37.c6 Qxg2 38.Qc5 Rc8


White has many options now, which are probably best left to Ostap to discuss.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #310 - 10/25/06 at 04:51:40
Post Tools
My candidate moves are the two already mentioned above: 38...Rc8 and 38...Rd2.  The semi-obvious 38...Qxf3 seems to lead to complications after 39.c7 Qa8 (forced since Black needs to cover both c8 and e8) 40.b4 and the position is suddenly unclear, since the pawn on c7 isn't so easy to capture (b5-b6 comes quickly) and the bishop is suddenly useful...just to show Willempie that these pawns aren't all free.

Although I think that either of Black's other choices should be sufficient here, there are some tactics in both lines.

38...Rd2 39.Rxd2 I mentioned above that I thought this didn't put up much resistance, but looking deeper Qxd2 40.b4 (now this has to come before c7 since otherwise Black just wins the pawn with Qd7 and Rc8) Re1+? would start chasing the White king up the board where he supports the pawns quite nicely -- the position is now rather unclear.  So Black should play 40...h4 or something instead, but certainly forcing the trade of rooks like this gives White some useful time.  Of course these lines have the advantage of being somewhat forcing, though by move 40 there are already many choices.

The main line (and the likely game continuation) 38...Rc8 is also not without some tricks.  White can play, for example 39.Qc3 with the idea h4 40.Be4 h3 41.Bd5 h2 42.Qf6 and Black has to start calculating some king walks since Rf8? leads to a draw after 43.Bxf7+.  On the other hand, 42...Qg1 does hold things together quite nicely.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #309 - 10/24/06 at 14:44:28
Post Tools
I accept the conditional moves and play 38.Qc5.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2 c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Qxe7 Bc6 26.Qe1 Qd6 27.Ne7+ Kg7 28.Nxc6 Qxc6 29.Kb1 Re8 30.Qc3 Qf6 31.Rd2 Qxh4 32.Rgd1 Qg3 33.Rxd4 cxd4 34.Qxd4+ Kg8 35.Qxa7 Re2 36.c5 Rbe8 37.c6 Qxg2 38.Qc5

current position


White's queenside pawns are not as dangerous as I once thought and, sadly, it looks like "resigns" will soon be one of my candidate moves.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #308 - 10/18/06 at 05:11:08
Post Tools
My move is 35...Re2.  As mentioned in the previous post, 35...Ra8 may also be good enough.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2 c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Qxe7 Bc6 26.Qe1 Qd6 27.Ne7+ Kg7 28.Nxc6 Qxc6 29.Kb1 Re8 30.Qc3 Qf6 31.Rd2 Qxh4 32.Rgd1 Qg3 33.Rxd4 cxd4 34.Qxd4+ Kg8 35.Qxa7 Re2


I offer the conditional sequence: 36.c5 Rbe8 37.c6 Qxg2.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #307 - 10/18/06 at 04:50:39
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 10/18/06 at 02:28:28:
After 35.Qxa7, I did look at 35...Re2 but after 36.c5 Rbe8 37.c6 Qxg2 38.Qc5 my main line continued with 38...Rd2 where I thought White should be OK; once I reached this conclusion, I moved on to other lines (such as 35...Ra8, which I thought caused White the most trouble though now I'm a bit doubtful of this).  Although I didn't completely overlook your 38...Rc8 the only thing I had down for this move was 39.Qc3 "stopping ...Rd2, so Black should play 38...Rd2 right away."  In hindsight, it's pretty clear I underestimated 38...Rc8 specifically, and maybe misassessed the whole ...Re2 plan in general.  Difficult to account for such an oversight except to say that I still have a lot to learn about how to analyze properly in this kind of a game!


Well, you had/have a very difficult defensive task.

35.Qxa7 Ra8 36.Qb6 (is probably best?) Re1!? is the best idea that I have in this line -- trying to immediately exchange the troublesome rook. 37.Rxe1 Qxe1+ 38.Kb2 Qe5+ 39.Kb1 Qg3 and White's defensive task is not trivial, but easier than the lines after 35...Re2.  These positions are very hard to judge without looking at long variations, but it is tricky for White to hold.  Black can just park his rook on f8 and push the h-pawn.

I thought that after 35...Re2 36.c5 Rbe8 37.c6 Qxg2 38.Qc5 Rd2 was OK for Black -- a rook trade should be winning for Black and if 39.Rc1 h4 makes life uncomfortable.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #306 - 10/18/06 at 02:28:28
Post Tools
Scholar,

Your analysis looks pretty convincing.  I think I may be able to improve White's play in this line, but I'm not sure it will be enough to save the game.  Well - I guess we'll know soon enough.

After 35.Qxa7, I did look at 35...Re2 but after 36.c5 Rbe8 37.c6 Qxg2 38.Qc5 my main line continued with 38...Rd2 where I thought White should be OK; once I reached this conclusion, I moved on to other lines (such as 35...Ra8, which I thought caused White the most trouble though now I'm a bit doubtful of this).  Although I didn't completely overlook your 38...Rc8 the only thing I had down for this move was 39.Qc3 "stopping ...Rd2, so Black should play 38...Rd2 right away."  In hindsight, it's pretty clear I underestimated 38...Rc8 specifically, and maybe misassessed the whole ...Re2 plan in general.  Difficult to account for such an oversight except to say that I still have a lot to learn about how to analyze properly in this kind of a game!



  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #305 - 10/17/06 at 06:03:00
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 10/17/06 at 04:17:44:
Willempie wrote on 10/17/06 at 03:56:46:
35-25 what's in a number.
But still same argument. What can white do against simply 35..Qxg6 36..Rbd8 followed by rook exchange and an invasion on the second (or first)?

35...Qxg6 or 35...Qxg2, what's in a number?  Grin

I'll defer this question to Scholar, who should be more than ready to answer after a bit of analysis. Tongue


Well, 35...Qxg2 is probably the weakest of the alternatives listed, because of 36.Rg1 -- the trade of queens is to White's advantage, in my opinion.  Black would rather trade rooks than queens.  This is not to say that the position is simple after 36...Rb7 (avoiding the trade leads to a draw after a sacrifice on g6) 37.Rxg2 Rxa7



Now this position may still be winning for Black, but it's the best that White can hope for, according to the basic principles that I'm working with, so I haven't looked at it in any detail.  Since White's pawns get rolling faster, he has good chances to draw.

So instead I think that it is more likely to see a quick invasion along the e-file.  Now we shall see how my endgame technique holds up to public scruntiny.

Here's a line which might not be all that bad (Fritz plays White, I push the h-pawn as fast as I can as Black):

35.Qxa7 Re2 36.c5 Rbe8 37.c6 Qxg2 38.Qc5 Rc8 39.b4 h4 40.Qc3 h3 41.Bb3 Re7 42.Qc5 Rec7 43.Bd5 h2



44.f4 Qg4 45.Qd4 Rxc6 46.Bxc6 Rxc6 47.Qd8+ Kg7 48.Qd4+ Rf6 and I think Black can win this.

Throwing in 35...Ra8 first may be an improvement, but I'll look at that after the more direct 35...Re2.  No need to help White improve his queen position, although Black have some surprises.

Well, I suspect that Ostap has checked all of this in detail, so we shall see what I can learn this week.  If White holds in all lines, I consider it a rather inspired piece of analysis on his part, since his position looks (to my fishy eyes) to be completely lost.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #304 - 10/17/06 at 06:01:20
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 10/17/06 at 04:17:44:
Willempie wrote on 10/17/06 at 03:56:46:
35-25 what's in a number.
But still same argument. What can white do against simply 35..Qxg6 36..Rbd8 followed by rook exchange and an invasion on the second (or first)?

35...Qxg6 or 35...Qxg2, what's in a number?  Grin

I'll defer this question to Scholar, who should be more than ready to answer after a bit of analysis. Tongue

Oops. It is eight in the morning here and I havent had my cafeine shot yet Grin
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #303 - 10/17/06 at 04:17:44
Post Tools
Willempie wrote on 10/17/06 at 03:56:46:
35-25 what's in a number.
But still same argument. What can white do against simply 35..Qxg6 36..Rbd8 followed by rook exchange and an invasion on the second (or first)?

35...Qxg6 or 35...Qxg2, what's in a number?  Grin

I'll defer this question to Scholar, who should be more than ready to answer after a bit of analysis. Tongue
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #302 - 10/17/06 at 04:15:23
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 10/17/06 at 01:24:33:
I suppose Ostapbender has calculated thoroughly,

Well, I hope so anyway!  Grin

I actually like this position for White (better than anything I could find based on 33.Qa5, anyway).  Although I can't claim a clear draw (yet  Wink), I think White's pieces coordinate surprisingly well and the queenside pawns should not be underestimated.


after 35.Qxa7


I mentioned earlier that I didn't think much of White's prospects when I first considered this position(see http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1151879306/285/#289), so I can understand why Willempie and Scholar would be inclined to think that I may have just presented Black a simple path to victory.  However, if either of you analyze it (well, Scholar will have to!) you might see that it's not as simple as 35...Qxg2 followed by pushing the h-pawn or invading on the second rank.  If I'm wrong, I guess we'll see soon enough!  Smiley
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #301 - 10/17/06 at 03:56:46
Post Tools
35-25 what's in a number.
But still same argument. What can white do against simply 35..Qxg6 36..Rbd8 followed by rook exchange and an invasion on the second (or first)?
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10716
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #300 - 10/17/06 at 01:24:33
Post Tools
Me like White's position very much after 25...Qxg2?? 26.Rxg2, as Black is missing some queen.  Wink

Seriously, I suppose Ostapbender has calculated thoroughly, what happens if Black tries an attack via the 2nd row. If it goes White's way, something like Rd7 and Bxg6 will happen.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #299 - 10/16/06 at 08:19:13
Post Tools
Hmm isnt white lacking some rook Wink
Me not like the position of white after 25..Qxg7 followed by an invasion on the 2nd rank.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #298 - 10/16/06 at 04:14:23
Post Tools
Well, I'm definitely surprised by your choice of 33.Rxd4 instead of 33.Qa5.  In fact in the present position, I can share with you all of my analysis in just three lines:

35...Ra8 36.Qb6 Qxg2
35...Re2
35...Qxg2

So I have a *lot* of work to do now to catch up.  Still, I have a hard time believing that White's resources will be sufficient.  That h-pawn is going to move down the board very quickly...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #297 - 10/15/06 at 21:00:28
Post Tools
It was a difficult choice between 33.Qa5 and 33.Rxd4, but I ultimately settled on the latter.  The exchange sac seems inevitable in any variation (the d4-knight just has to go) and doing it right away may have fewer drawbacks than postponing it.  I'm not entirely sure about grabbing the a7-pawn straightaway, but it seems to be the right course based on lines I've examined.  If White's salvation lies anywhere it will be in the advance of the queenside pawns.

So my move is 33.Rxd4

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2 c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Qxe7 Bc6 26.Qe1 Qd6 27.Ne7+ Kg7 28.Nxc6 Qxc6 29.Kb1 Re8 30.Qc3 Qf6 31.Rd2 Qxh4 32.Rgd1 Qg3 33.Rxd4

current position

and I offer the conditional sequence 33...cxd4 34.Qxd4+ Kg8 35.Qxa7 leading to


after 35.Qxa7
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #296 - 10/14/06 at 22:44:41
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 10/13/06 at 00:50:29:
You called my bluff!  Smiley


Yes, well, don't work too hard on that line.  I won't be playing 34...Qxf4, that's for sure.  Of course, judging by your recent posts, perhaps I should start looking more critically at moves other than 33.Qa5.

*

I was replaying the game just now to see how things fit together and could not help but notice that the bizarre trajectory of the Black queen has continued since the opening: Qb6-a5-c7-g3-d6xc6-f6xh4-g3 and with the queen expected to continue to bounce along the b8-h2 diagonal for a while more...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #295 - 10/13/06 at 00:50:29
Post Tools
You called my bluff!  Smiley
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #294 - 10/13/06 at 00:18:34
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 10/12/06 at 14:12:13:
Scholar wrote on 10/12/06 at 13:06:02:
Well, the idea is to sacrifice the rook when the pawn gets to c7 and then try to win with the three connected passed pawns on the kingside.  Since posting, my opinion has shifted and it now looks like this is a touch slow -- Black has enough for a draw, but no win in my analysis.  And in these sorts of positions, that usually indicates that White has pretty good winning chances.

Sounds good!  What are the moves leading to this position?  Grin


1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. f3 Bg7 7. Be3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 Bxd4 13. Qxd4 Qb6 14. Na4
Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16. h4 h5 17. c4 Nf4 18. Qe3 Rb8 19. Rg1 Ne6 20. Bd3 Rd8 21. Be4
Bd7 22. Bc2 c5 23. Nc3 Qg3 24. Nd5 Nd4 25. Qxe7 Bc6 26. Qe1 Qd6 27. Ne7+ Kg7
28. Nxc6 Qxc6 29. Kb1 Re8 30. Qc3 Qf6 31. Rd2 Qxh4 32. Rgd1 Qg3 33. Qa5 Qe5 34.
f4 Qxf4 35. Qxc5 Ne2 36. Rd3 Rbd8 37. Qa5 Rxd3 38. Bxd3 Qf6 39. Kc2 Qf2 40. Qg5
Nf4+ 41. Rd2 Qe3 42. g3 Nxd3 43. Qxe3 Nb4+ 44. Kc3 Rxe3+ 45. Kxb4 Rxg3 46. c5

Good luck!
Let's just say that Black's play isn't entirely forced... Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #293 - 10/12/06 at 14:12:13
Post Tools
Scholar wrote on 10/12/06 at 13:06:02:
Well, the idea is to sacrifice the rook when the pawn gets to c7 and then try to win with the three connected passed pawns on the kingside.  Since posting, my opinion has shifted and it now looks like this is a touch slow -- Black has enough for a draw, but no win in my analysis.  And in these sorts of positions, that usually indicates that White has pretty good winning chances.

Sounds good!  What are the moves leading to this position?  Grin
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #292 - 10/12/06 at 13:06:02
Post Tools
Willempie wrote on 10/12/06 at 10:07:47:
Scholar wrote on 10/10/06 at 06:22:57:
Here's a much more interesting endgame study than the one I gave before.  I have always been fascinated by this type of position (rooks and pawns on opposite wings).


Black to move


Probably a draw, but I'll have to see if Black can squeeze out a win with those kingside pawns.  Bonus points if you can reach this position from the game.

fen=8/p4pk1/6p1/2P4p/1K6/1P4r1/P2R4/8 if you want to analyze this yourself.

I am not sure about this. I think white may be able to win this one as it is hard to stop the c-pawn. Ie with white to move pushing the c-pawn seems winning.


Well, the idea is to sacrifice the rook when the pawn gets to c7 and then try to win with the three connected passed pawns on the kingside.  Since posting, my opinion has shifted and it now looks like this is a touch slow -- Black has enough for a draw, but no win in my analysis.  And in these sorts of positions, that usually indicates that White has pretty good winning chances.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #291 - 10/12/06 at 10:07:47
Post Tools
Scholar wrote on 10/10/06 at 06:22:57:
Here's a much more interesting endgame study than the one I gave before.  I have always been fascinated by this type of position (rooks and pawns on opposite wings).


Black to move


Probably a draw, but I'll have to see if Black can squeeze out a win with those kingside pawns.  Bonus points if you can reach this position from the game.

fen=8/p4pk1/6p1/2P4p/1K6/1P4r1/P2R4/8 if you want to analyze this yourself.

I am not sure about this. I think white may be able to win this one as it is hard to stop the c-pawn. Ie with white to move pushing the c-pawn seems winning.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #290 - 10/11/06 at 02:46:50
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 10/10/06 at 19:16:06:
Right now I'm analyzing a line which could lead to endgames with similar features (i.e., opposite wing passed pawns).  The line is 33.Rxd4 cxd4 34.Qxd4+ Kg8 35.Qxa7

[...]

At first glance, I didn't think much of White's prospects.  I didn't like punting the kingside pawns, in particular giving Black the passer on the h-file.   As I dig deeper, however, I think this may be a valid alternative to 33.Qa5.  In any event, it's double-edged and a fun line to analyze.

So far no other candidate moves.


Yes, this is the main alternative.  My impression is that Black retains good winning chances, since he can push the h-pawn more easily than White can push any of his (and it is a certainty that I would try to grab on g2 and do just that).  It's hard to be sure, though; these sort of slow-motion pawn races make for difficult assessments, and often all three results look plausible before the key line is found.

The only other candidates I considered were moves to protect the queen (in order to make Be4 possible), but these seemed less promising.

I view Qa5 as both most likely and best, and so most of my analysis has been of that move.  To be honest, I have not even managed to prepare my reply to that yet, so I probably won't look further at Rxd4 unless it appears.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #289 - 10/10/06 at 19:16:06
Post Tools
Thank's Scholar.  That's an interesting endgame — which I don't have time to analyze at the moment (maybe after my next move).  Right now I'm analyzing a line which could lead to endgames with similar features (i.e., opposite wing passed pawns).  The line is 33.Rxd4 cxd4 34.Qxd4+ Kg8 35.Qxa7 leading to:


Black to move


At first glance, I didn't think much of White's prospects.  I didn't like punting the kingside pawns, in particular giving Black the passer on the h-file.   As I dig deeper, however, I think this may be a valid alternative to 33.Qa5.  In any event, it's double-edged and a fun line to analyze.

So far no other candidate moves.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #288 - 10/10/06 at 06:22:57
Post Tools
Here's a much more interesting endgame study than the one I gave before.  I have always been fascinated by this type of position (rooks and pawns on opposite wings).


Black to move


Probably a draw, but I'll have to see if Black can squeeze out a win with those kingside pawns.  Bonus points if you can reach this position from the game.

fen=8/p4pk1/6p1/2P4p/1K6/1P4r1/P2R4/8 if you want to analyze this yourself.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #287 - 10/09/06 at 03:44:06
Post Tools
Scholar wrote on 10/09/06 at 02:55:15:
Well, 33.Qa5 looks pretty solid, but I imagine that 33.Be4?? will be crossed off the list pretty quickly (Rxe4).

That f3-pawn is pinned, isn't it?  Yep. Crossed off already!  Grin
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #286 - 10/09/06 at 02:55:15
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 10/09/06 at 01:36:43:
32...Qg3 is an interesting choice which, although a little bit of a surprise (not a big surprise since, of course, you did mention it a couple of days ago) it looks to be no worse than 32...Qf6 (which I expected you to choose).  Whether it's substantially better is not apparent to me just yet.

Although I haven't yet analyzed 32...Qg3 (I, rather lazily, waited to see if you would play it before investing the time), a candidate move which comes to mind right away is 33.Qa5 and I'm sure other possibilities will occur to me as I take a closer look (certain moves, like 33.Be4 will almost certainly be on the list).

It may take a few days to sort everything out, but I'll get to work on analyzing right away.


Well, 33.Qa5 looks pretty solid, but I imagine that 33.Be4?? will be crossed off the list pretty quickly (Rxe4).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #285 - 10/09/06 at 01:36:43
Post Tools
32...Qg3 is an interesting choice which, although a little bit of a surprise (not a big surprise since, of course, you did mention it a couple of days ago) it looks to be no worse than 32...Qf6 (which I expected you to choose).  Whether it's substantially better is not apparent to me just yet.

Although I haven't yet analyzed 32...Qg3 (I, rather lazily, waited to see if you would play it before investing the time), a candidate move which comes to mind right away is 33.Qa5 and I'm sure other possibilities will occur to me as I take a closer look (certain moves, like 33.Be4 will almost certainly be on the list).

It may take a few days to sort everything out, but I'll get to work on analyzing right away.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #284 - 10/09/06 at 00:32:59
Post Tools
My move is 32...Qg3.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2 c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Qxe7 Bc6 26.Qe1 Qd6 27.Ne7+ Kg7 28.Nxc6 Qxc6 29.Kb1 Re8 30.Qc3 Qf6 31.Rd2 Qxh4 32.Rgd1 Qg3


White seems destined to play Rxd4, but perhaps his position can be improved before he commits to doing so.  32...Qf6 was the main alternative, but the selected move puts a little more pressure on White.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #283 - 10/07/06 at 07:14:09
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 10/06/06 at 05:04:45:
Scholar wrote on 10/06/06 at 04:19:22:
Recently I've been working on 32.Be4 f5 33.Bd5 leading to somewhat different play, and where I was having some trouble making things work.  Often I would get what I thought was a winning advantage, and but it would turn out that I was actually just maneuvering myself into a drawn endgame, maybe up a clear pawn, or the exchange, but still drawn.  (It is enough to make one hate the 6-man tablebases...)

I wasn't entirely confident regarding White's drawing chances after 32.Be4 f5 33.Bd5 and decided I didn't want to invite this possibility.  Sounds like I might not have looked at this position carefully enough.


Maybe.  I still believe that there is a win there for Black, even if I can't find it.

As far as the present move, it will be either Qf6 or Qg3; I'll decide this weekend.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #282 - 10/06/06 at 05:04:45
Post Tools
Scholar wrote on 10/06/06 at 04:19:22:
Recently I've been working on 32.Be4 f5 33.Bd5 leading to somewhat different play, and where I was having some trouble making things work.  Often I would get what I thought was a winning advantage, and but it would turn out that I was actually just maneuvering myself into a drawn endgame, maybe up a clear pawn, or the exchange, but still drawn.  (It is enough to make one hate the 6-man tablebases...)

I wasn't entirely confident regarding White's drawing chances after 32.Be4 f5 33.Bd5 and decided I didn't want to invite this possibility.  Sounds like I might not have looked at this position carefully enough.

Scholar wrote on 10/06/06 at 04:19:22:
As far as winning chances, now that I am learning that KQRPvKQBP is not an easy win, I am more circumspect.

While I wouldn't be surprised if a win existed, it seems very difficult to find a clear cut answer.  Indeed, 8-man tablebases would come in handy right now!
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #281 - 10/06/06 at 04:19:22
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 10/06/06 at 02:54:02:
I looked at 32.Be4 and I think it's also a reasonable choice but didn't see any reason to prefer it to 32.Rgd1 (which I'd already analyzed more deeply).  My impression is that similar themes would probably be at play after either move, and lines might eventually just transpose.


Recently I've been working on 32.Be4 f5 33.Bd5 leading to somewhat different play, and where I was having some trouble making things work.  Often I would get what I thought was a winning advantage, and but it would turn out that I was actually just maneuvering myself into a drawn endgame, maybe up a clear pawn, or the exchange, but still drawn.  (It is enough to make one hate the 6-man tablebases...)

Quote:
I suspect we will be seeing a maneuever like ...Re6-b6 and the black queen will need to be brought back into play, maybe via f6, and eventually the advance ...a5-a4 will be coming ...

... and we'll soon see if White's defensive resources are sufficient.


And what will White be doing all this time?  I'm not sure what moves other than Be4 and Rxd4 really improve his position.

But, yes, the main candidates for my next move are various queen moves, with 32...Qf6 currently topping the list, although not by much.  As far as winning chances, now that I am learning that KQRPvKQBP is not an easy win, I am more circumspect.  Where are those 8-man tablebases when you need them!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #280 - 10/06/06 at 02:54:02
Post Tools
My move is 32.Rgd1.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2 c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Qxe7 Bc6 26.Qe1 Qd6 27.Ne7+ Kg7 28.Nxc6 Qxc6 29.Kb1 Re8 30.Qc3 Qf6 31.Rd2 Qxh4 32.Rgd1

current position

I looked at 32.Be4 and I think it's also a reasonable choice but didn't see any reason to prefer it to 32.Rgd1 (which I'd already analyzed more deeply).  My impression is that similar themes would probably be at play after either move, and lines might eventually just transpose.

I suspect we will be seeing a maneuever like ...Re6-b6 and the black queen will need to be brought back into play, maybe via f6, and eventually the advance ...a5-a4 will be coming ...

... and we'll soon see if White's defensive resources are sufficient.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #279 - 10/04/06 at 05:33:27
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 10/04/06 at 05:10:57:
I kind of expected 31...Qxh4 which I thought was the best try, but I was a bit worried that 31...Re6 might be your move - in which case none of the analysis I've done so far would be useful!  So I guess I'm relieved that I chose right move to focus on.  It shouldn't take me very long to post a reply (at least for the next move).

Most likely I will play 32.Rgd1 which is the only move I've analyzed so far, but I will at least briefly look at other possibilities to make sure I don't overlook an important candidate move.  So far I've entered 32.Be4 as a possibility in the database entry for the analysis of this game, but haven't really analyzed it yet and don't really expect it to be a serious alternative.


Well, in that case, I'm likely to play Re6 later, anyway.  Playing 31...Re6 was to discourage 31.Be4 which seems less bad after 31...Qxh4, but ultimately, I decided that the cure was worse than the disease.  The 32.Be4 lines are interesting, and certainly less explored by me than 31.Rgd1, but I decided that 31...Qxh4 32.Be4 was more pleasant to face than 31...Re6 32.Rh1 when I couldn't find the way forward, mainly because 31...a5 doesn't work.  (If that makes sense -- basically if 31...a5 doesn't work, then 32...a5 isn't going to work either, and that's Black's only real plan if White does nothing.  With the h-pawn in hand, a5 becomes dangerous again...)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #278 - 10/04/06 at 05:10:57
Post Tools
I kind of expected 31...Qxh4 which I thought was the best try, but I was a bit worried that 31...Re6 might be your move - in which case none of the analysis I've done so far would be useful!  So I guess I'm relieved that I chose right move to focus on.  It shouldn't take me very long to post a reply (at least for the next move).

Most likely I will play 32.Rgd1 which is the only move I've analyzed so far, but I will at least briefly look at other possibilities to make sure I don't overlook an important candidate move.  So far I've entered 32.Be4 as a possibility in the database entry for the analysis of this game, but haven't really analyzed it yet and don't really expect it to be a serious alternative.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #277 - 10/04/06 at 04:27:18
Post Tools
My move is 31.Qxh4.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2 c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Qxe7 Bc6 26.Qe1 Qd6 27.Ne7+ Kg7 28.Nxc6 Qxc6 29.Kb1 Re8 30.Qc3 Qf6 31.Rd2 Qxh4



Ostap's assessment may prove to be correct.  It will probably take another week or so of thinking before I am satisfied that Black's chances have evaporated, and so it makes sense to just move, since there is nothing better.  I will offer a draw at move 35 if I can't find anything concrete by then.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #276 - 10/03/06 at 07:58:13
Post Tools
Here's an interesting endgame I have come across, whose evaluation (I claim a draw) has influenced my choice of candidate.


Black to move


So, it turns out that I may have my move ready earlier than I thought if I make no further progress in this line (based on the idea that I should just play whatever looks promising and that I haven't analyzed out to a draw for White).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #275 - 10/01/06 at 00:39:38
Post Tools
Oh, I plan to take the pawn, but I don't think that White can really defend it (well, maybe I should look more closely at Rh1 ideas) and so Black might do better to re-arrange his pieces a bit and hopefully restrict White's options a bit with 31...Re6, even if the rook is not ideally placed on e6 in all lines.  Since White's sources of counterplay involve primarily Rgd1/Be4/Rxd4, it's hard to see White taking advantage of Black's move order.

Still, 31...Qxh4 is most likely.

The long think is required because White may have compensation for the exchange sacrifice on d4 -- that and the fact that the mere passage of time doesn't improve my analysis.  On the plus side, the collapse of the Kramnik-Topalov match has given me some more time for this game...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #274 - 09/29/06 at 11:39:47
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 09/29/06 at 11:26:32:
Oh, you greedy Dutchman, like Dik Trom you first swallow and only then you think of the stomach-ache.  Grin

"Concentrate on material gains. Whatever your opponent gives you take, unless you see a good reason not to."
Bob Visser Wink
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10716
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #273 - 09/29/06 at 11:26:32
Post Tools
Oh, you greedy Dutchman, like Dik Trom you first swallow and only then you think of the stomach-ache.  Grin
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #272 - 09/29/06 at 09:45:28
Post Tools
Why need a long think? There is a pawn to grab Grin
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #271 - 09/29/06 at 00:32:29
Post Tools
OK.  I will probably use this move for my "long think" so it may be a few days beyond that before I reply.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #270 - 09/28/06 at 12:52:48
Post Tools
Scholar,

I will be out of town from Thursday (flight today) until Sunday night, so there is no need to post your next move before Sunday.

Cheers,
Ostap
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #269 - 09/28/06 at 04:10:31
Post Tools
Well, I've more or less decided that 31...a5 is not good enough for a win.  There are a couple of good reasons for this -- exchanging off the a-pawn like this makes it easier for White to progress on the queenside (he need only push two pawns, instead of three) and Black will need to send a rook to remove the h-pawn.  I had thought that Black might be able to make these concessions and still promote first, but it is not to be.

It will take some more work to decide whether I should grab the pawn immediately or try a more subtle move order.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #268 - 09/26/06 at 15:41:56
Post Tools
As far as my own analysis goes, 31...Qxh4 is the line, but 31...a5 is a significant branch.  For me it's bit of a toss-up as to which is objectively best, although I suspect that 31...Qxh4 being a bit more complicated to analyze may offer the best practical chance of finding a winning plan.  I only looked at 31...Re6 long enough to decide that it wasn't a direct refutation, so it's possible there is more to this move than I saw from that brief analysis.

I think Black retains an edge in any line, but the winning plan remains hidden (from me) at the moment.  A few moves down the road, who knows?  Slight, but solid, edges often have a way of growing into winning edges - I still have my work cut out for me.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #267 - 09/26/06 at 06:55:03
Post Tools
Interesting choice -- I had been expecting Rge1, when I had hoped to be able to grab the h4 pawn and try and maintain the initiative, but I am not sure that Black really has as much as I thought a few moves back.  31.Rd2 seems like a good choice as well, likely better.  I'll have to take a close look at the position in order to determine whether Black can still play for a win.

The candidates, at least the obvious ones, are:

31...Qxh4 -- greedy and probably best; the exchange sac is made much more dangerous (cf. 31...a5)
31...a5 -- the endgame looks equal; Black can try to push on the kingside, but this appears too slow
31...Re6/31...Rb6 -- suggested by some analysis in other lines
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #266 - 09/25/06 at 04:37:12
Post Tools
My move is 31.Rd2.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2 c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Qxe7 Bc6 26.Qe1 Qd6 27.Ne7+ Kg7 28.Nxc6 Qxc6 29.Kb1 Re8 30.Qc3 Qf6 31.Rd2

current position

It is still too soon to claim that all of White's problems are solved, but I think things are heading in the right direction.  Black, while still a bit better, will need to find something more potent than my own analyses have turned up to demonstrate a clear path to a winning advantage.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #265 - 09/24/06 at 21:32:58
Post Tools
After further analysis 31.Rde1 (upon which I based my decision to play 30.Qc3) still looks OK, but 31.Rd2 looks even better and is likely to be my choice.  I have a few more branches to check out in the 31.Rd2 line and should be able to post my next move tonight.

(Then it will be time to catch up on analysis of my French Defense game which has lain dormant for a couple of weeks.  There have been a few interesting posts there that I haven't yet had a chance to digest.)
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #264 - 09/21/06 at 15:06:49
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 09/21/06 at 01:48:24:
To me 31.Rd2 looks best, as grabbing back the pawn takes two tempi. White can use these to activate his pieces: Qxh4 32.Rgd1 Qf6 33.Be4 and White is OK.
31.Rd2 a5 32.Rgd1 a4 is nicely met with 33.Rxd4, as the two connected passed pawns will compensate for the exchange.

Thanks!  This looks quite convincing.  I haven't had time to analyze 31.Rd2 yet, but it looks like it has good prospects of being better a move than 31.Rde1 (the only move that I've analyzed so far, and also a move which I am reasonably happy with).

31.Rd2 definitely will get more than a brief look!
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10716
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #263 - 09/21/06 at 01:48:24
Post Tools
To me 31.Rd2 looks best, as grabbing back the pawn takes two tempi. White can use these to activate his pieces: Qxh4 32.Rgd1 Qf6 33.Be4 and White is OK.
31.Rd2 a5 32.Rgd1 a4 is nicely met with 33.Rxd4, as the two connected passed pawns will compensate for the exchange.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #262 - 09/20/06 at 20:17:26
Post Tools
Now h4 hangs and 31...Ne2 threatens to win the exchange (since Qxf6+ will allow Black ...Nc3+ after the g1-rook moves), so the h4-pawn falls -- unless Black has something even better.  I've looked a bit at 31.Rde1, which might be OK although this is not entirely clear at this point.  I will also consider (at least briefly) a few other options including 31.Be4, 31.Rge1, 31.Rgf1, and 31.Rd2.  Unless one of the other choices (upon analysis) emerges as a clearly better move, then 31.Rde1 (which appears to be the most flexible option) seems likely.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #261 - 09/20/06 at 19:04:36
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 09/20/06 at 18:27:48:
On the last move, I only considered candidate moves which stopped ...Ne2.  Although this may be too restrictive from the viewpoint of exhaustively searching for the absolute best move, this approach appealed to me pragmatically (with limited time a narrower list allows for deeper analysis of each choice).  I suspect that in an OTB game I would have limited my choices in the same way.  Although I haven't analyzed it at all, my impression is that Qa5 and Qxc5 will misplace the white queen and likely cost White the exchange as well.


Well, I think your intuition is correct, but I always feel an obligation to check pawn-grabbing lines first.  It is interesting to wonder about the order of the last couple of moves (Re8 before Qf6 instead of Qf6 first), but I agree that at some point one needs to check a few lines and then just play.

My move is 30...Qf6, bringing us to the following position:



1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2 c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Qxe7 Bc6 26.Qe1 Qd6 27.Ne7+ Kg7 28.Nxc6 Qxc6 29.Kb1 Re8 30.Qc3 Qf6
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #260 - 09/20/06 at 18:27:48
Post Tools
Scholar wrote on 09/20/06 at 06:09:45:
Well Ostap, it looks like you've answered both of my earlier questions in the negative: White will neither defend h4 nor attack c5.  The alternatives for White (to my mind) were to defend h4 with 30.Be4 or attack c5 with 30.Qa5.  The latter move always seemed too bold (Qf6 and Ne2 both looked strong).  I have to say that I was expecting 30.Be4, which seemed risky but at least let White have some fun on the kingside.  30.Qc3 is certainly a more solid choice.

On the last move, I only considered candidate moves which stopped ...Ne2.  Although this may be too restrictive from the viewpoint of exhaustively searching for the absolute best move, this approach appealed to me pragmatically (with limited time a narrower list allows for deeper analysis of each choice).  I suspect that in an OTB game I would have limited my choices in the same way.  Although I haven't analyzed it at all, my impression is that Qa5 and Qxc5 will misplace the white queen and likely cost White the exchange as well.

From the current position my impression is that I might ultimately have to give up the exchange no matter what path I choose.  However, I think that there are a least a few possible (likely?) scenerios – at least partly controlled by my choices – where giving up the exchange leads to a perfectly playable endgame.  Although there is still much I haven't analyzed yet and I may be proven wrong, White's game may just be salvageable.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #259 - 09/20/06 at 06:09:45
Post Tools
Well Ostap, it looks like you've answered both of my earlier questions in the negative: White will neither defend h4 nor attack c5.  The alternatives for White (to my mind) were to defend h4 with 30.Be4 or attack c5 with 30.Qa5.  The latter move always seemed too bold (Qf6 and Ne2 both looked strong).  I have to say that I was expecting 30.Be4, which seemed risky but at least let White have some fun on the kingside.  30.Qc3 is certainly a more solid choice.

Only three moves presented themselves as reasonable tries in the present position:

30...Qf6
30...a5
30...Re2


The last two can be rejected for purely tactical reasons: 30...Re2 31.Bd3 Re3 32.Rge1 seems like a gift of a tempo to White and 30...a5 31.Rxd4 cxd4 32.Qxd4+ Kg8 33.Be4 Qa6 34.g4 a4 35.gxh5 axb3 36.a4 Qxa4 37.Rxg6+ is just a draw.  (OK, so that's not all forced, but I don't see anything better for Black.)

So I'll take another quick look around, but no prizes for guessing my next move.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #258 - 09/20/06 at 05:09:48
Post Tools
After looking a bit at 30.Be4 (I was hoping to maneuver the bishop to d5 after, probably, Qc3), I decided I don't completely trust it.  The bishop belongs on c2 - at least for the time being.  So my choice is 30.Qc3.  There might be other candidate moves to consider but, at the moment, I don't have time to look at anything else.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2 c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Qxe7 Bc6 26.Qe1 Qd6 27.Ne7+ Kg7 28.Nxc6 Qxc6 29.Kb1 Re8 30.Qc3

current position


It looks like it might be a difficult defense, but I haven't found a forced win for Black just yet - maybe I just haven't looked deeply enough...
« Last Edit: 09/20/06 at 06:56:12 by OstapBender »  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #257 - 09/13/06 at 04:01:04
Post Tools
Again, I offer my moves with the caveat of having spent about five minutes looking at the position.

30.Be4 smells like a rotten lemon.  Black simply replies 30...Qc7 and the dark squares fall to him.

30.Qc3 looks like an artificial attempt to forestall the forks and threats to e2 and feels destined to fail.  My analysis backing it up?  None. 

My first choice move in a blitz game therefore would be the very passive looking 30.Qf1.  It aint pretty, but at least it also slows down Re2.  I just realised that 30.Qf1 may run into something like 30...Ne2 31.Rg-h1?! Nc3+! (Why win the rook on h1?)  So maybe my blitz move fails.  Maybe Black is close to winning after all! 

So much for my thoughts.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #256 - 09/12/06 at 18:15:08
Post Tools
I'd considered 29...Re8 as a possibility, but was expecting 29...Qf6 which I would have immediately answered with 30.Qc3 (having access to the c3 square was one reason I preferred leaving my queen on e1 rather than aiming for some kind of vague central/kingside play with Qe5+).  After 29...Qf6 30.Qc3 I had 30...Re8 as my top candidate move for Black (although there were a couple of other potentially dangerous lines I had to analyze before arriving at that prioritzation).

Now I have a couple of choices to consider, but haven't analyzed any of them yet, so probably no more blitz pace - at least for the moment.  My first inclination was to answer 29...Re8 with 30.Qc3 when 30...Qf6 (which, however, is certainly not forced or necessarily best) would transpose to lines I've already analyzed.  I'm also going to look at 30.Be4 since it may be advantageous to leave my queen on e1 for the moment.  I will try to get it all sorted out by Friday, but might wind up needing part of the weekend to finish the task - depending on how much of my now very limited "chess time" gets spent analyzing lines for my other game.

As for the decision to to end this game at some point or continue until the likely outcome has been clarified, I leave that decision to you.  My main motivation for stopping this game is that it will make it easier for me to focus on my other game.  However, I think our game has reached an interesting (not to mention ironic) juncture where it's not clear if White's defensive resources will be enough to hold the position.  While I'm not thrilled at the prospect of possibly losing, I find the challenge of defending such a position actually quite attractive and I think there is something to be learned (albeit not of theoretical value) from playing it out.

So, I vote that we play it out at least as long as Black's winning chances look realistic (as they do now).  If we get to the point where it looks drawish, or technically very difficult to win, then I would prefer to and the game and get on with what should be an interesting post-mortem analysis.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #255 - 09/12/06 at 03:26:19
Post Tools
Ostap, I hasten to add to my previous posts that I am happy to end this game at any point -- to the extent that this game was designed to test the opening, its objective has been met. Keeping that in mind, I will mention that I won't have much time to spend on the game the next couple of weeks...I had thought that the moves I had prepared during your last think would last me, but at the current pace, those lines might not even make it to this weekend!

Still, there's no reason to "think" for a few days, and so while I am here, I will make my next move, and continue the blitz pace.  Between my main candidates of 29...Qf6 and 29...Re8, I have come to prefer the latter, despite its additional risk.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2 c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Qxe7 Bc6 26.Qe1 Qd6 27.Ne7+ Kg7 28.Nxc6 Qxc6 29.Kb1 Re8
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #254 - 09/12/06 at 00:44:14
Post Tools
Boy, that happened fast!

I am really glad you decided to play on.  Unfortunately, I no longer have any concrete analysis to offer.   I think that White may have already escaped the brunt of Black's attack, but that's only based on a cursory look at the position. 

I should point out that my next PGA (Pawn Grabbers Anonymous) meeting isn't until next month. Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #253 - 09/11/06 at 21:55:26
Post Tools
Scholar,

My impression was that this game would be a torturous draw with White hanging on by a thread, but apparently you've found something a bit more lethal.  So let's get on with it and see if White really is toast here - if you're right, at least it will be a quick, relatively painless death! Grin

I accept the conditional sequence 27.Ne7+ Kg7 28.Nxc6 Qxc6 and play 29.Kb1.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2 c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Qxe7 Bc6 26.Qe1 Qd6 27.Ne7+ Kg7 28.Nxc6 Qxc6 29.Kb1

current position


Regarding the alternative 29.Qe5+ I didn't spend much time analyzing it, but my impression was that it merely misplaces the white queen.  29.Kb1, which I also need to analyze further, seems like White's only reasonable attempt to hold the position together.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #252 - 09/11/06 at 03:34:48
Post Tools
In the current position, 16...Qxe1 may be enough for a draw, but Black would have to work for it.  The best move is, in my opinion, 16...Qd6 when White needs to remain vigilant.

I decline the draw offer and play 26...Qd6.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2 c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Qxe7 Bc6 26.Qe1 Qd6

I offer the conditional sequence 17.Ne7+ Kg7 18.Nxc6 Qxc6, which I regard as more or less forced.

So the current position is given by:


and if the conditional moves are accepted, we will reach:


I've looked mainly at 29.Kb1 and 29.Qe5+ here.  Strategically, White must decide how (or if) to defend h4, whether (and how) to attack c5, and what should be done about king safety.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #251 - 09/11/06 at 03:28:55
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 09/11/06 at 00:25:00:
Sorry this took a couple of days longer than promised but analysis for my other game (where, unlike this game, I still might have winning chances) took longer than I thought it would.


No worries.  Since I have elected to continue the game, I should say that I don't mind if the pace slows somewhat.

Quote:
Here I looked a bit at 26.Nf6+ and decided it's just too risky, so I will go with what seems like the safest choice for this position: 26.Qe1.


I suspect that 26.Nf6+ loses by force.  I wouldn't guarantee it, but when I stopped looking, I had a large advantage for Black in all lines.

Quote:
and here I offer a draw, as I can see no way that White can play for a win.  My assessment of the current position is that Black is at least a bit better, and White must play carefully just to hold the balance.


I am tempted to accept the offer, but I'd like to see another couple of moves, in part because I've already investigated 26.Qe1 fairly carefully.  At the moment, I do not see a way for White to avoid sacrificing the exchange for what appears to be insufficient compensation, but I may be overestimating Black's attack.  I haven't looked at the game in a while, so I'd rather just play the moves I consider forced, and then decide whether or not it is reasonable to play for the full point.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #250 - 09/11/06 at 00:25:00
Post Tools
Scholar,

Sorry this took a couple of days longer than promised but analysis for my other game (where, unlike this game, I still might have winning chances) took longer than I thought it would.

Here I looked a bit at 26.Nf6+ and decided it's just too risky, so I will go with what seems like the safest choice for this position: 26.Qe1.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2 c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Qxe7 Bc6 26.Qe1

current position


and here I offer a draw, as I can see no way that White can play for a win.  My assessment of the current position is that Black is at least a bit better, and White must play carefully just to hold the balance.

As I mentioned earlier, I had thought that 25.Qxe7 might give White a slight hope of continuing to push for a win but this was based on the reply 25...Be6 - your 25...Bc6 is a much stronger move.

If you accept the draw, we can start looking for earlier improvements in the game line.  If you want to play on, this is also understandable: from a competetive perspective you may have enough of an edge to generate some winning chances.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #249 - 09/05/06 at 20:16:16
Post Tools
Sorry I've had a lot going on the past week and a half (deadline pressure and a bit of travel) and, sadly, virtually no time for chess.  I've looked a bit more at 25...Bc6 and have become convinced that it's a much better move than 25...Be6, which was my basis for selecting 25.Qxe7 and which I had believed to be Black's only serious reply.  I certainly regret not taking a more serious look at 25...Bc6 (underestimated but not actually overlooked) when I had the chance in which case I believe I would have concluded that 25.Qxe7 was not the correct choice.  

Then again, as I said earlier, from a theoretical perspective a draw would have proved nothing since some virtually forced draws have already been established.  I chose 25.Qxe7 to keep the outcome of the game in the balance, but in doing so may have provided the wrong color with winning chances - ooops!  Oh well, at least it will be more interesting this way.  Seeing a few more posts by someone other than myself or Scholar leads me to wonder if I should not have blundered sooner! Grin

Again, sorry for disappearing when things got busy.  I will bring my analysis of 25...Bc6 up to speed ASAP and have my next move posted in a few days (Friday latest - hopefully sooner than this).
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10716
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #248 - 08/30/06 at 20:22:31
Post Tools
Thanks. When looking at a position it is handy to have the pieces on the right squares  Embarrassed and the bishop on c2 iso d3.
I suppose best White can do is offering an endgame with 26.Qe1. Black probably decline with Qd6 27.Ne7+ Kg7 28.Nxc6 Qxc6 relying on his strong knight. My fear has come true: White's clever manoeuvres have led to a position, in which all Black pieces have found good squares.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
parisestmagique
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 471
Location: paris
Joined: 01/24/06
Gender: Male
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #247 - 08/30/06 at 13:10:42
Post Tools
Did you check 26.Qc7 QxQ 27.NxQ Ne2+
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10716
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #246 - 08/30/06 at 03:07:42
Post Tools
Something wrong with 26.Qc7 ?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #245 - 08/29/06 at 05:40:47
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/29/06 at 02:38:14:
The more I look at the position the more it seems to be an optical illusion.  White should be winning this, yet nothing seems to work! 

Scholar,

You've found a really interesting position.  I still don't have faith in Black here, but finding the key to winning for White is really going to be difficult.  In fact, as you know, there are many traps for White to slip into that will give Black a real advantage.

Ostap,

Right now, I don't have any concrete advice for you here. 


I would go further.  While I don't want to overestimate my chances in the current position, I have a difficult time finding a clear path for White to equality.  On previous occasions White had the option to take the draw or try and play on.  My impression is that Black is now in the same situation.

I agree that it is a bit incredible -- on the surface White's pieces are well placed and he is a pawn to the good -- and yet here we are.  Well, to talk up my position any more while Ostap is on the move strikes me as a bit unsporting, but he faces another difficult choice.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #244 - 08/29/06 at 02:38:14
Post Tools
The more I look at the position the more it seems to be an optical illusion.  White should be winning this, yet nothing seems to work! 

Scholar,

You've found a really interesting position.  I still don't have faith in Black here, but finding the key to winning for White is really going to be difficult.  In fact, as you know, there are many traps for White to slip into that will give Black a real advantage.

Ostap,

Right now, I don't have any concrete advice for you here.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #243 - 08/28/06 at 16:56:48
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/28/06 at 12:00:32:
...Bc6 has the definite benefit of covering both d5 and e4, making Nf6-e4 and g3 much more difficult to work.  But at least it's back in the cards again.  I wonder if there's a way to lure the Nd4 away without giving up too much.

I know Scholar's done quite a bit of work on Bc6, but it just looks to be on the wrong diagonal for defending the rather exposed king.


I think you mean the wrong diagonal for attacking the rather exposed king, but it's hard to be sure.  Smiley

Short of Rxd4, I think the knight is here to stay, since Nf6+ puts the White knight on the wrong circuit.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #242 - 08/28/06 at 12:00:32
Post Tools
...Bc6 has the definite benefit of covering both d5 and e4, making Nf6-e4 and g3 much more difficult to work.  But at least it's back in the cards again.  I wonder if there's a way to lure the Nd4 away without giving up too much.

I know Scholar's done quite a bit of work on Bc6, but it just looks to be on the wrong diagonal for defending the rather exposed king.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #241 - 08/27/06 at 23:59:39
Post Tools
In light of the above comments, I am happy to play 25...Bc6.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2 c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Qxe7 Bc6
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #240 - 08/27/06 at 23:51:29
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 08/27/06 at 17:37:40:
Scholar wrote on 08/27/06 at 06:06:47:
Of course, I think that Black has equalized, and so all of my variations support this assessment; the same is true after 25.Qxe7.  In this position, 25...Be6 is perhaps an error--I think that White can maintain at least a slight advantage with best play.

I guess this means I underestimated 25...Bc6, which I thought to be inferior to 25...Be6.
I'll have to take a deeper look at this move, and see what I missed. Undecided


Maybe 25...Be6 isn't so bad for Black.  It's always been my second choice in the position, but I was prompted to take another look at it after seeing your conditional move.  The line that I was looking at continued 26.Nf6+ Kg7 27.Ne4 Qe5 28.Kb1 Rbc8



and now, my impression is that White can retain a small edge after  29.Bd3 Nf5 30.Qg5 f6 31.Qc1 Nxh4 32.Nc3 with hopes of continuing a kingside attack against Black's weakened pawns.

This seems stronger than allowing 28...Re8 29.Qxc5 Qxc5 30.Nxc5 Ne2 31.Rge1 Nc3+ 32.Kb1 Nxd1 33.Rd1 when White has compensation for the exchange.

However, 25...Bc6 has always struck me as more solid.  It doesn't restrict the White queen as much, but it prevents the White knight from coming to rest on e4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #239 - 08/27/06 at 17:37:40
Post Tools
Scholar wrote on 08/27/06 at 06:06:47:
25.Qh6 was one of the critical moves in the position, leading to complex play.  Again though, I think Black has sufficient resources.

I didn't think 25.Qh6 looked very promising, but maybe I dismissed it too quickly.

Scholar wrote on 08/27/06 at 06:06:47:
Of course, I think that Black has equalized, and so all of my variations support this assessment; the same is true after 25.Qxe7.  In this position, 25...Be6 is perhaps an error--I think that White can maintain at least a slight advantage with best play.

I guess this means I underestimated 25...Bc6, which I thought to be inferior to 25...Be6.
I'll have to take a deeper look at this move, and see what I missed. Undecided
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #238 - 08/27/06 at 06:06:47
Post Tools
I'm not so sure that White has anything with Nxe7+/Rxd4 either...actually, I think the sacrifice is a little dubious and after 25.Nxe7+ Kh7 26.Be4 is probably safer, although this leads to a draw rather quickly.

25.Qh6 was one of the critical moves in the position, leading to complex play.  Again though, I think Black has sufficient resources.

Of course, I think that Black has equalized, and so all of my variations support this assessment; the same is true after 25.Qxe7.  In this position, 25...Be6 is perhaps an error--I think that White can maintain at least a slight advantage with best play.

I've looked at the position in some depth already.  Indeed, it was the first line that I checked, since 23...Nd4 24.Qxe7 was the reason why I played 23...Qg3 in the first place.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #237 - 08/27/06 at 04:51:47
Post Tools
After much wavering back and forth between the two possible captures, I've decided to go with what is probably the riskier choice: 25.Qxe7.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2 c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Qxe7

current position

and I offer the conditional moves: if 25...Be6 then 26.Nf6+.

You are correct that I was leaning towards 25.Nxe7+/26.Rxd4 - in fact, analysis of this continuation was the main basis for my decision to play 24.Nd5.  My impression is that it offers a safe, but small advantage. However, I could not find anything in this line which suggested more than an eventual draw.

My feeling at this point is that a draw proves nothing, other that that you were right about White's lack of real winning chances - and where's the fun in that?Wink  Moreover, I've already passed up a chance on my last move to play in a way which could have virtually forced a draw (assuming I analyzed 24.Ne2 correctly).

I took a hard look at 25.Qxe7, which I think is a lot more complex.  I'm sure I didn't see everything, but I think I saw enough to suggest that White can try for a tangible advantage in some lines while still being able to bail out into a roughly equal positition (or forced draw) in other lines.  I hope I saw enough. Undecided
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #236 - 08/27/06 at 03:39:25
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 08/25/06 at 18:37:45:
Scholar wrote on 08/23/06 at 01:09:58:
I don't know a safe way for White to win a pawn at this point.

I think that the safety issue refers mainly to Black's well-posted knight on d4 eyeing the e2-square.  In most (all?) lines where White grabs the e7-pawn (either with queen or knight) he will have to give up the exchange: either passively through allowing a knight fork or actively with Rxd4.  This is definitely a concern.

However ...

... in most (all?) lines where this happens White gains a second pawn for the exchange as well as a protected passed pawn on the c-file.  I think that the two pawns for the exchange material balance should be slightly favorable for White (at least no worse than drifting towards eventual equality) in most of the endgames that  I'm looking it.

I happy with this prospect. Smiley  Hopefully, there is not a worse scenerio that I am missing. Undecided


White will also have to extricate whichever piece he uses to capture on e7.  Given time, Black can also grab some pawns for himself.  The exchange sacrifice by White is strong but is also forced in many lines.

I take it that you are leaning towards 25.Nxe7+/26.Rxd4, which is one of the best ways to unbalance things.  (25.Bxg6 is another -- I thought White could maintain a small edge drifting towards equality, but I suspect that by this point, you have looked deeper into the resulting endgame than I.)

*Edit: Removed an extra word.
« Last Edit: 08/27/06 at 05:54:14 by Scholar »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #235 - 08/25/06 at 18:37:45
Post Tools
Scholar wrote on 08/23/06 at 01:09:58:
I don't know a safe way for White to win a pawn at this point.

I think that the safety issue refers mainly to Black's well-posted knight on d4 eyeing the e2-square.  In most (all?) lines where White grabs the e7-pawn (either with queen or knight) he will have to give up the exchange: either passively through allowing a knight fork or actively with Rxd4.  This is definitely a concern.

However ...

... in most (all?) lines where this happens White gains a second pawn for the exchange as well as a protected passed pawn on the c-file.  I think that the two pawns for the exchange material balance should be slightly favorable for White (at least no worse than drifting towards eventual equality) in most of the endgames that  I'm looking it.

I happy with this prospect. Smiley  Hopefully, there is not a worse scenerio that I am missing. Undecided
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #234 - 08/24/06 at 20:25:07
Post Tools
For the record, candidate moves are:
  • 25.Bxg6
  • 25.Nxe7+
  • 25.Qxe7!

There are other possible moves, but these seem to be the critical ones.

There's still a bit of work to do, but right now it looks like a toss-up between 25.Nxe7+ and 25.Qxe7! (the exclam is not so much for strength as it is for the fact that Smyslov_Fan suggested it and it might actually be the best move! Wink).  As I've said before, I didn't like the look of the endgame which arises (pretty much by force) from 25.Bxg6 - and as I investigate it deeper I like it even less.  So, although I list 25.Bxg6 as a candidate, it's not likely to be the move that I play.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #233 - 08/23/06 at 18:45:31
Post Tools
Ostap,

I think you're right, but I'll have to look at it with a board some time, and these next three days are going to be busy for me.

Cheers!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #232 - 08/23/06 at 18:01:34
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/23/06 at 15:59:35:
Ostap, I think I forgot to throw in 28.Qf6+ K moves then 29.g3.

In your line after 27.Ne4 (necessary to support Qf6+) Black plays 27...Qf4+.  With the black queen also covering f6, there is no way to get in Qf6+ (it drops a piece).  The general problem that your attacking idea runs into is that Black is able keep the f-file (particularly f6) sufficiently covered.  Note also that 28...Bxc4 covers the f1-square (the value of Black's earlier ...Rb8 is not merely winning the pawn, but more importantly gaining the c4-square for the bishop) so that 29.g3 Qxf3 cannot be followed up by 30.Rf1.  The attacking idea is logical, but it just doesn't work here.  Black's pieces are well-placed; his position is resilient.

29.Qxc5 (instead of 29.g3) might be worth a look, though.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #231 - 08/23/06 at 15:59:35
Post Tools
Ostap, I think I forgot to throw in 28.Qf6+ K moves then 29.g3.  But I could be wrong since I'm trying to do three things at once during my break. 

Ciao!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #230 - 08/23/06 at 08:03:15
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/23/06 at 06:50:25:
(Again, I have the caveat that I'm operating with no computer assistance and just the diagrams.  Almost as if it were an otb game!)

Please explain to me why 25.Qxe7 is bad.

25.Qxe7 is definitely a candidate move - but I haven't looked at it in any depth yet.

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/23/06 at 06:50:25:
Another line is 25...Be6 but even then White has interesting play by either sacking his Rook on d4 or playing the more forcing line:  26.Nf6+ Kg7 27.Ne4 (protecting f2 and preparing a possible Qf6+) 27...Qf4+ 28.Kb2 Bxc4?! (Trying to justify Rb8) 29.g3 followed by a monstrous attack on the kingside.

After 29...Qxf3, I can't find better than 30.Qe5+ Kh6 31.Qe5+ with a perpetual.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #229 - 08/23/06 at 06:50:25
Post Tools
(Again, I have the caveat that I'm operating with no computer assistance and just the diagrams.  Almost as if it were an otb game!)

Please explain to me why 25.Qxe7 is bad. Let me just give a couple of sample lines for Black:  25...Nc2?! 26.Nf6+ Kg7 27.Kc2 Bf5+ 28.Nf5 is CHECK! gf5 And probably 29.Qg5+ wins for White.

Another line is 25...Be6 but even then White has interesting play by either sacking his Rook on d4 or playing the more forcing line:  26.Nf6+ Kg7 27.Ne4 (protecting f2 and preparing a possible Qf6+) 27...Qf4+ 28.Kb2 Bxc4?! (Trying to justify Rb8) 29.g3 followed by a monstrous attack on the kingside.  

Again, these are just impressions after about ten minutes of thinking, but I am not seeing Black's equal game arising from such a relatively simple set of forcing moves.  (Of course, a computer would be able to analyse these positions more fully, especially whether the checks lead to anything more than an attractive position.)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #228 - 08/23/06 at 04:53:24
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 08/23/06 at 04:21:09:
I still think that the move you played, 24...Nd4, is Black's best - after which I haven't found a specific line which suggests that you are in any real (or imagined Wink) danger of losing.  However, in contrast to the forced draws found in other lines, the position hasn't clarified just yet - I think White still has a (very) slight edge. 

That is, nothing has changed dramatically since 22...c5.


Sounds about right.  White has some interesting options, but it's hard to decide which endgames give the best chances.  Some of the rook and pawn endgames, for example, amount to races which are extraordinarily difficult to judge.  I certainly don't think that Black is in any danger of getting mated, but his winning chances are almost exclusively the result of White overplaying his hand in equal endgames by wasting too much time trying to grab queenside pawns.

Well, Ostap, you have another critical decision on your hands, with many moves to sort through: good luck!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #227 - 08/23/06 at 04:21:09
Post Tools
Scholar wrote on 08/23/06 at 01:09:58:
I'm not sure what Ostap sees, but he will most likely have to reveal it with his next move; certainly, I don't know a safe way for White to win a pawn at this point.

I wasn't claiming to have a specific line where White wins a pawn right away, but making a vague reference to the fact that you might later lose a pawn on the queenside since both pawns are isolated.

I still think that the move you played, 24...Nd4, is Black's best - after which I haven't found a specific line which suggests that you are in any real (or imagined Wink) danger of losing.  However, in contrast to the forced draws found in other lines, the position hasn't clarified just yet - I think White still has a (very) slight edge.  

That is, nothing has changed dramatically since 22...c5.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #226 - 08/23/06 at 01:09:58
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 08/22/06 at 23:51:38:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/22/06 at 21:51:48:
I have to say that if Black's best is 24...Nd4, then Ostap's position is even better here than in my game.  And that's saying something!

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Smyslov_Fan.  While I agree that White is still maintaining an edge here, I think you might be underestimating Black's defensive resources a bit.  Even if I can eventually get to a pawn up endgame (and I'm not absolutely sure that I can), it's not entirely clear that this will be enough to win.  Right now, I'm happy to have avoided a clear-cut draw (but I have a feeling Scholar will soon be making me unhappy again).


Well, SF, you didn't exactly suggest anything better in your previous post Wink

I'm not sure what Ostap sees, but he will most likely have to reveal it with his next move; certainly, I don't know a safe way for White to win a pawn at this point.  My main concern is with some of the equal-material endgames, where White attempts to activate his queenside majority faster than Black can activate his kingside majority, but concretely I haven't found any significant problems.

So, I'll stick with the plan: 24...Nd4

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2 c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #225 - 08/22/06 at 23:51:38
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/22/06 at 21:51:48:
I have to say that if Black's best is 24...Nd4, then Ostap's position is even better here than in my game.  And that's saying something!

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Smyslov_Fan.  While I agree that White is still maintaining an edge here, I think you might be underestimating Black's defensive resources a bit.  Even if I can eventually get to a pawn up endgame (and I'm not absolutely sure that I can), it's not entirely clear that this will be enough to win.  Right now, I'm happy to have avoided a clear-cut draw (but I have a feeling Scholar will soon be making me unhappy again).

Our game in the French defense is a totally different matter because it's so much more complex.  I think White's prospects there are great, but there are many unclear choices and Black has resources (e.g., if the kingside can be held together, a queenside counterattack could prove deadly) - I think memers' suggestion of playing 16...Re8 and keeping the knight posted on c4 looks like a good possibility which will probably require a very different plan/solution from the lines analyzed so far.

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/22/06 at 21:51:48:
Ostap, we gotta gang up on one of your Black repertoire openings some time!  You're doing great as White (so far)!

After current games finish up, I'd be very interested in the black side of a Nimzo-Indian (or possibly even a Benoni Shocked).
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #224 - 08/22/06 at 21:51:48
Post Tools
I have to say that if Black's best is 24...Nd4, then Ostap's position is even better here than in my game.  And that's saying something!

Ostap, we gotta gang up on one of your Black repertoire openings some time!  You're doing great as White (so far)!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #223 - 08/21/06 at 05:49:22
Post Tools
It's difficult to imagine that Black has a better move than 24...Nd4, but it never hurts to consider alternatives.  Every now and then a token alternative proves to be significantly better than it appeared at first glance.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #222 - 08/21/06 at 05:08:47
Post Tools
My candidate move is: 24...Nd4.

Since I'm not sure this is precisely how Kotov envisioned his 'system' being used(!), I'll also look at 24...Kg7 and 24...Re8, neither of which appears to lose immediately.  Mainly I'll try and check my variations after 24...Nd4 for errors.

Kg7/Re8 claim that White can't make progress if Black just sits back and plays passively.  This is not as absurd as it sounds; if 24...Re8 loses, I do not know how, and I am interested in any analysis of that move.  For transpositional reasons, I think it unlikely that 24...Kg7 is stronger than both 24...Re8 and 24...Nd4.

Nd4 aims to bring about equality by force -- and so all things being equal, it remains my top choice.

*

I'm using CB8.  I will say that the Chessbase technical support people have always been very helpful when I've contacted them.  This time, they even offered to try and recover the data (although by that point I had discovered the above 'method').

All the same, I'll probably just keep my analysis in a pgn file for the rest of this game, and just delete and reinstall everthing (the program and the data) when I have a few hours to kill.  So my chess software may need to regenerated, but the show must go on!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #221 - 08/21/06 at 03:09:14
Post Tools
Scholar wrote on 08/21/06 at 02:58:54:
OK.  I'll post my reply quickly but there is one catch: my copy of chessbase corrupted all of my databases last week.

This is horrendous.  Is there no end to the problems with this software?

Out of curiosity, what version of Chessbase are you using?

Of course, I have no problem with waiting for your move as you get everything back into a working (hopefully stable) state.  Good luck!
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #220 - 08/21/06 at 02:58:54
Post Tools
OK.  I'll post my reply quickly but there is one catch: my copy of chessbase corrupted all of my databases last week.  I was able to recover all of the data (well, as best as I can tell), but I essentially had to do this in ten-game chunks by exporting to pgn after sorting by annotator.  (Don't ask me why this worked, but I am very happy that I was able to get the data somehow.)  Fortunately my home prepation is not so extensive that this was an impossible task, but it still took a while.  I mention this only because after re-creating all new databases, it happened again today.  Of course, I had up-to-date copies saved of all of the stuff that I had done, so I only have to recover what I've done in the past week.  So while I don't think I've lost any analysis, I am a bit concerned that the next time I might not be so lucky.  That, and everything is now sorted by annotator, a field which I usually filled with random crap, and so it's not so easy for me to find things.

So once I figure out where my analysis files from this game are hidden, I'll verify that Black will play 24...Nd4 -- this shouldn't be a surprise either, and I don't think that there are any real alternatives, although it might be smart to give it a day in case someone else wants to help me out.  As SF pointed out above, the obvious alternatives aren't much to look at.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #219 - 08/20/06 at 15:12:31
Post Tools
I accept the conditional moves 23.Nc3 Qg3 and my next move is 24.Nd5:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2 c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5

current position


No surprise here (other than I finally made a decision! Wink).

24.Rd5 was interesting, but Black seems to have a couple of good replies (at least) which look good enough to maintain the balance.  And of course 24.Ne2 leads only to a forced draw with best play.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #218 - 08/19/06 at 07:52:21
Post Tools
No problem -- it is only natural that you'd want to spend your time on the French game where you still have some winning chances :P

All kidding aside, I am very interested to see what your plan is here for White, although probably that won't really be clear for another couple of moves.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #217 - 08/19/06 at 05:04:36
Post Tools
Scholar,

Sorry this is taking so long.  I spent the small amount of time I had earlier in the the week looking at line in my other game and had almost no time midweek.  I think I have 24.Nd5 worked out pretty well, and this looks likely to be the choice, but I want to look deeper at 24.Rd5 (a good suggestion - thanks!) before committing to a move.  I don't know how likely it is that this would wind up being my choice, but there are some interesting lines (moreso than I would have imagined before starting to dig in) and I want to make sure I don't miss out on an opportunity here.

Although tomorrow is not exactly free for me I think I should be able to find enough time to work out an intracacies of 24.Rd5 and make the choice between this and 24.Nd5.  I will try to post my next move by tomorrow night.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #216 - 08/18/06 at 08:06:22
Post Tools
24.Nd5 Qxh4? 25.g4 hxg4 26.Rh1 Qg5 27.f4 traps the queen.

In the position after 24.Nd5, I have only considered 24...Nd4, when my main line (after 25.Bxg6) is given in an earlier post, linked below.

[quote author=Scholar link=1151879306/180#190 date=1155186007][b]22...c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Bxg6 fxg6 26.Qxe7 Rf8 27.Rxd4 cxd4 28.Qxd7 Rf7 29.Qe6 Rbf8[/b][/quote]
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #215 - 08/18/06 at 07:43:06
Post Tools
Here's one completely unforced line:  24.Nd5 Kf8?! 25.Qh6 Ke8? 26.Qh8 Ng8 and White threatens mate on c7 after 27.f4 or f6 after Rfe1.  Both are cool smothered mates, and neither is forced.  But it should be enough to give Black pause.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #214 - 08/18/06 at 07:32:34
Post Tools
I haven't analysed things very deeply, but I don't see how Black can hang on to the extra pawn after 24.Nd5 Qh4?! 25.g3 ummm Qg5 26.f4 and White gains a central pawn (e7 for the h-pawn and maintains attacking chances.  What am I missing?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #213 - 08/15/06 at 16:09:22
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 08/15/06 at 08:46:06:
Actually, I had this all worked out before I put 24.Ne2 on the list of candidates.  I will take 24.Ne2 off the list once I determine (with reasonable certainty) that White has another line that promises more than this!  Undecided


Ah, now I understand.  Well, there's no doubt that White can get a draw if he'd like, but I didn't see anything much better in any of the lines that I considered.  Probably 24.Nd5 offers the best chances then, since if 24...Nd4 then White has (in addition to the endgame after 25.Bxg6) some less forcing options.  (25.Qe1 comes to mind, but I didn't think White could squeeze much out of the endgame.)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #212 - 08/15/06 at 08:46:06
Post Tools
Scholar wrote on 08/15/06 at 05:36:21:
I agree with your analysis of 22.c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Ne2 Qxh4 25.Bxg6 fxg6 26.Rxd7 Qf6 27.Rxa7 -- it is a draw after either of Black's options.  At some point I considered that White might reply to 27...Rb7 with 28.Ra6 planning on meeting Rb6 with 29.Rxb6 Qa1+ 30.Kc2 Qa2+ 31.Kc3 Qa5+ 32.Kb2 Qxb6, but I do not think that it is to White's advantage to avoid the draw, and 27...Rd6/28...Rbd8 does not leave him a choice in the matter.

I don't think that 27.Rxd8+ is much of an improvement.  I guess this removes 24.Ne2 from the list of candidates...

Actually, I had this all worked out before I put 24.Ne2 on the list of candidates.  I will take 24.Ne2 off the list once I determine (with reasonable certainty) that White has another line that promises more than this!  Undecided

BTW, I think that 27.Rxd8+ is not an improvement at all, but may actually be somewhat worse; e.g.:
27...Rxd8 28.Kb1 (what else? maybe 28.Qe4 is possible, but it's not inspiring with ...a5-a4 coming) 28...Qf5+ 29.Qe4 Qxe4+ 30.fxe4 Rd2 and I prefer Black.  Sad
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #211 - 08/15/06 at 05:36:21
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 08/15/06 at 05:12:19:
Scholar wrote on 08/15/06 at 02:00:19:
With apologies, let me *now* comment on this line.  As a side remark, I had looked at 29.Bb1 as my main line, and concluded that the exchange sacrifice by White didn't lead to any advantage, even if Black plays poorly, giving the line 29.Bb1 Bxg4 30.fxg4 e6 31.Rh1 Kxe7 32.Qxc5+ as leading to a draw, and I think that Black has various improvements at move 30 which give him the opportunity to play for the win.

Need to insert the move pair 31.Ne7+ Kf8 and 32.Rh1 Kxe7 33.Qxc5+ leads to a draw as you said.  I agree with you that Black should have better than 30...e6.


Yes -- thanks for the correction.  30...Ne6 is probably Black's best.

Quote:
Scholar wrote on 08/15/06 at 02:00:19:
So Black might deviate earlier, and here I think 26...Qh8 is probably the first place to look.

Yes, this is what worries me.  The queen stays on the long diagonal, but it is no longer under attack when White plays 28.Nd5.  I haven't analyzed any lines, though.


Yes -- it's possible that I've overlooked some resources for White, but since 26...Qf6 now seems good enough for a draw, I imagine you'll be spending your time elsewhere.

I agree with your analysis of 22.c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Ne2 Qxh4 25.Bxg6 fxg6 26.Rxd7 Qf6 27.Rxa7 -- it is a draw after either of Black's options.  At some point I considered that White might reply to 27...Rb7 with 28.Ra6 planning on meeting Rb6 with 29.Rxb6 Qa1+ 30.Kc2 Qa2+ 31.Kc3 Qa5+ 32.Kb2 Qxb6, but I do not think that it is to White's advantage to avoid the draw, and 27...Rd6/28...Rbd8 does not leave him a choice in the matter.

I don't think that 27.Rxd8+ is much of an improvement.  I guess this removes 24.Ne2 from the list of candidates...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #210 - 08/15/06 at 05:12:19
Post Tools
Scholar wrote on 08/15/06 at 02:00:19:
With apologies, let me *now* comment on this line.  As a side remark, I had looked at 29.Bb1 as my main line, and concluded that the exchange sacrifice by White didn't lead to any advantage, even if Black plays poorly, giving the line 29.Bb1 Bxg4 30.fxg4 e6 31.Rh1 Kxe7 32.Qxc5+ as leading to a draw, and I think that Black has various improvements at move 30 which give him the opportunity to play for the win.

Need to insert the move pair 31.Ne7+ Kf8 and 32.Rh1 Kxe7 33.Qxc5+ leads to a draw as you said.  I agree with you that Black should have better than 30...e6.

Scholar wrote on 08/15/06 at 02:00:19:
The error that I had was in overlooking the move 34.Rxh5 -- at a glance, it seems like White can force the draw.  So while I don't think it validates the line, it is at least better than I had thought it would be.  After, say 34...Bxc2 (forcing the draw) 35.Nxg6+ fxg6 36.Qxc5+ Kg8 37.Rh8+ Kxh8 38.Qe5+ and Black cannot escape the checks.

Another line is 34...Qxc2 35.Qh8+ Kg7 36.Rc1 Qd3 37.Qh6+ Kf6 38.Nd5+ Rxd5 39.cxd5 Qxf3 40.Rxb8 Qg3+ and Black forces the draw.

I also overlooked 34.Rxh5, so this line is not as bad for White as I had thought either.


Scholar wrote on 08/15/06 at 02:00:19:
So Black might deviate earlier, and here I think 26...Qh8 is probably the first place to look.

Yes, this is what worries me.  The queen stays on the long diagonal, but it is no longer under attack when White plays 28.Nd5.  I haven't analyzed any lines, though.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #209 - 08/15/06 at 03:36:48
Post Tools
BTW,

It's great to have you involved in the discussion MNb!
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #208 - 08/15/06 at 03:18:56
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 08/15/06 at 02:42:31:
Now 24.Ne2 Qxh4 25.g4 does not work, it is time to see if we can reinforce that idea. Already looked at 25.Bxg6 intention fxg6 26.Rxd7, an idea that played a role in some 25.g4 lines too? If Black does not play 25...fxg6, but say 25...Qf6, White can play either against Black's weak pawns or against Black's vulnerable king (g2-g4).

24.Ne2 Qxh4 25.Bxg6 was the first line I analyzed for the 22.c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 continuation, even before Scholar played 22.c5.  My conclusions are that after 25...fxg6 (which I initially thought was somewhat worse for Black) White can probably force a draw, but there is no way to play for a win (at least none that I can find).  After 25...Qf6 (which I initially thought was Black's best chance to hold) I think White has serious winning chances - in fact, thus far I cannot find a way for Black to save the game in this line.

Here's my main line after 22.c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Ne2 Qxh4 25.Bxg6 fxg6:

26.Rxd7 Qf6 27.Rxa7 (other moves are worse, and might even lead to an advantage for Black) and now
    [A]  27...Rb7 forces a draw after 28.Rxb7 (other moves just ask for trouble) 28...Qa1+ 29.Kc2 Qxa2+ with perpetual check.

    [B]  27...Rb6 can be tried if Black wants to play for more, but I think the game will still be drawn after 28.Kc2 Rbd6 29.Re1 Qf5+ 30.Qe4 Rd2+ 31.Kb1 Qf6 32.Nc3 Qxc3 33.Qxe6+ Kh8 34.Qe5+ Qxe5 35.Rxe5 and here I think Black has nothing better than to force a draw with 35...Rd1+ 36.Kb2 R8d2+ 37.Kc3=

Whether a win for White can be absolutely proven after 25...Qf6 is debatable (although I think it's quite likely).  All White's ideas after 25...Qf6 are of no value unless there is an improvement for White after 25...fxg6 which makes that line winning for White as well.

[Edit: Looks like you found the draw with 27...Rb7 and modified your post while I was responding to your initial post.]
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10716
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #207 - 08/15/06 at 02:42:31
Post Tools
Now 24.Ne2 Qxh4 25.g4 does not work, it is time to see if we can reinforce that idea. Alas 25.Bxg6 fxg6 26.Rxd7 Qf6 27.Rxa7 Rb7! draws.
I do not trust 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Bxg6 fxg6 26.Qxe7 Rf8 27.Rxd4 cxd4 28.Qxd7 either.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #206 - 08/15/06 at 02:00:19
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 08/14/06 at 20:41:06:
After 24.Ne2 Qxh4 25.g4 hxg4 26.Rxg4 Qf6 (26...Qh8 also needs to be considered) 27.Nc3 I now think Black's best reply may well be 27...Ng7, the move I had down initially - and this looks like a tough nut to crack.

The move I would like to play in this position is 28.Nd5, but it doesn't seem to work. My main line here is:
28...Qa1+ 29.Kd2 Qb2 30.Rb1 Qxa2 31.Nxe7+ Kf8 32.Rf4 Bf5+ 33.Ke1 Nh5 34.Nxf5 Re8 35.Re4 Qxc2 and here, to paraphrase a remark I've heard elsewhere:

Black has the extra pawn AND the compensation.

The line I gave is a long one, and I'm sure it doesn't represent best play.  However, I'm struggling right now to find a key improvement that significantly changes its assessment.

If, after 27...Ng7, White has nothing better than moving the g4-rook (e.g., Rgg1 or Rg2) then I expect Black will quickly activate his pieces an consolidate his pawn advantage.

I still haven't given up on 25.g4, but I'm getting a bit less optimistic.


With apologies, let me *now* comment on this line.  As a side remark, I had looked at 29.Bb1 as my main line, and concluded that the exchange sacrifice by White didn't lead to any advantage, even if Black plays poorly, giving the line 29.Bb1 Bxg4 30.fxg4 e6 31.Rh1 Kxe7 32.Qxc5+ as leading to a draw, and I think that Black has various improvements at move 30 which give him the opportunity to play for the win.

It is now clear to me that 29.Kd2 is better, though I find this quite surprising.  There is a typo in your line: 32.Rh4 (instead of 32.Rf4?) above.

The error that I had was in overlooking the move 34.Rxh5 -- at a glance, it seems like White can force the draw.  So while I don't think it validates the line, it is at least better than I had thought it would be.  After, say 34...Bxc2 (forcing the draw) 35.Nxg6+ fxg6 36.Qxc5+ Kg8 37.Rh8+ Kxh8 38.Qe5+ and Black cannot escape the checks.

Another line is 34...Qxc2 35.Qh8+ Kg7 36.Rc1 Qd3 37.Qh6+ Kf6 38.Nd5+ Rxd5 39.cxd5 Qxf3 40.Rxb8 Qg3+ and Black forces the draw.

So Black might deviate earlier, and here I think 26...Qh8 is probably the first place to look.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #205 - 08/15/06 at 01:10:11
Post Tools
One move which isn't among your candidates but which I had thought would be is 24.Rd5.  The downside from White's perspective is that Black has several plausible replies, but this was one of the moves that I initially thought might lead to an edge for White (although now I think Black is OK).

**

Sorry, I meant to edit my previous post with that comment in it, but instead deleted it (but not fast enough to prevent you from replying).

I realized that my analysis of the line that you gave had an error in it, and so I figured that I could correct it before anyone else noticed.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #204 - 08/15/06 at 01:05:16
Post Tools
Scholar wrote on 08/15/06 at 00:55:39:
One move which isn't among your candidates but which I had thought would be is 24.Rd5.  The downside from White's perspective is that Black has several plausible replies, but this was one of the moves that I initially thought might lead to an edge for White (although now I think Black is OK).

I don't recall giving this move much thought (may have been that I concluded the rook would just be a target on d5 and I didn't look further), and I definitely did not analyze any lines based on it.  It will be worth at least a quick look to see if I can figure out what you initially liked about it (and sometimes analyzing one line produces an idea for another line).

Thanks for the suggestion.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #203 - 08/14/06 at 20:41:06
Post Tools
After 24.Ne2 Qxh4 25.g4 hxg4 26.Rxg4 Qf6 (26...Qh8 also needs to be considered) 27.Nc3 I now think Black's best reply may well be 27...Ng7, the move I had down initially - and this looks like a tough nut to crack.

The move I would like to play in this position is 28.Nd5, but it doesn't seem to work. My main line here is:
28...Qa1+ 29.Kd2 Qb2 30.Rb1 Qxa2 31.Nxe7+ Kf8 32.Rh4 Bf5+ 33.Ke1 Nh5 34.Nxf5 Re8 35.Re4 Qxc2 and here, to paraphrase a remark I've heard elsewhere:

Black has the extra pawn AND the compensation.

The line I gave is a long one, and I'm sure it doesn't represent best play.  However, I'm struggling right now to find a key improvement that significantly changes its assessment.

If, after 27...Ng7, White has nothing better than moving the g4-rook (e.g., Rgg1 or Rg2) then I expect Black will quickly activate his pieces an consolidate his pawn advantage.

I still haven't given up on 25.g4, but I'm getting a bit less optimistic.

[Edit: Corrected a typo pointed out by Scholar below: 32.Rf4 was replaced by 32.Rh4]
« Last Edit: 08/15/06 at 02:06:15 by OstapBender »  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #202 - 08/14/06 at 05:38:22
Post Tools
Some brief remarks on Ostap's candidates.  (The public ones, that is -- it would not surprise me if some other move rises through the ranks as did 22.Bc2.)

The 24.Ne2/25.g4 lines are highly entertaining, and I think that this path offers White some of his best winning chances, but it does so at considerable risk.  27...Ng7 as mentioned by Ostap and 26...Qh8 as I mentioned above pose White some new problems.  Of course, 24.Ne2 does not commit to the sacrifice of material.

For aesthetic reasons, I am partial to 24.Ne4 Qe5 -- an entertaining echo of a previous discussion -- even though I have looked at this in somewhat less detail than the other moves mentioned.  This move does have the advantage of cleverly guarding the h-pawn as 24...Qxh4?? 25.g3 traps the queen.

24.Nd5 was the first move that I considered here, and combined with the many choices for Black and White on subsequent moves, is hard to evaluate clearly.

24.Rd2 -- My impression is that Black is happy to trade precisely one pair of rooks in the present position, and for that reason alone, I do not think it one of White's best moves.

24.Kb1 -- I have no reason to believe that White's king would be any happier here.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #201 - 08/14/06 at 03:20:16
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 08/14/06 at 02:26:06:
That work should also include 24.Ne2 Qxh4 25.g4 hxg4 26.Rxg4 Qf6 27.Nc3 Bc6 (Nd4 28.Nd5) 28.Rdg1 Nf8 (Xxf3 29.Rxg6+!) 29.f4 e6.

MNb,
This is a great suggestion: your main line looks very promising!

I had 27.Nc3 and 27.Rdg1 down as candidate moves in my notes of lines to analyze after 24.Ne2 Qxh4 25.g4 hxg4 26.Rxg4 Qf6.  My initial impression was that Black's best reply might be 27...Ng7 (attacking the g4-rook without blocking the queen's access to a1), in both cases.  However, I didn't have exploring these possible improvements in the 25.g4 line high on my list of priorities.

Seeing how strong White's play looks after 27.Nc3 Bc6 gives me much motivation to look further into 27.Nc3.  Maybe I gave up too quickly on 24.Ne2 Qxh4 25.g4.  For the moment at least, looking for a way to make 25.g4 work is moved up to first priority!

Thanks!
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10716
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #200 - 08/14/06 at 02:26:06
Post Tools
That work should also include 24.Ne2 Qxh4 25.g4 hxg4 26.Rxg4 Qf6 27.Nc3 Bc6 (Nd4 28.Nd5) 28.Rdg1 Nf8 (Xxf3 29.Rxg6+!) 29.f4 e6.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #199 - 08/14/06 at 00:40:14
Post Tools
At this point I see my candidate moves (after 23.Nc3 Qg3, I doubt that White has a sensible alternative to 23.Nc3) as:

  • 24.Nd5
  • 24.Ne2
  • 24.Ne4
  • 24.Rd2
  • 24.Kb1

So far I've looked at 24.Nd5 and 24.Ne2 (which at one point I though might be winning, but now the best I can find are a couple of sharp, and almost forced, drawing lines), but need to look at both a bit further.  I'm not yet certain which of these knight moves I prefer.

I haven't taken more than a cursory look at the other three moves.  None of these seem a likely contender at the moment, although none have been looked at deeply enough to be eliminated just yet.

Still a bit of work to do before coming to a decision ...  Undecided
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #198 - 08/14/06 at 00:24:17
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 08/12/06 at 20:43:16:
Just a wild idea, I haven't checked it, so it might be complete nonsense. But my instinct tells me, that it is worth a serious look.
24.Ne2 Qxh4 25.g4!?

I also was attracted to this idea, but couldn't make it work.  My main line was:
(24.Ne2 Qxh4 25.g4) 25...hxg4 26.Rxg4 Qf6 27.Rh1 (if 27.Kb1 then 27...Nd4 threatening ...Nxc2 followed by ...Bf5+) 27...Nd4 28.Rgh4 and now 28...Nxe2+ (28...Nxc2 also looks good for Black) 29.Qxe2 Qa1+ 30.Bb1 Qc3+ 31.Bc2 (31.Qc2 might be better, but still not inspiring) and after 31...Bf5 I don't see what White has to show for the pawn.  

The 25.g4 idea is tempting, but there doesn't seem to be a way to make it work (sadly, this a pretty fair description of most of the lines I've looked at with g2-g4 over the last couple of moves).
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #197 - 08/12/06 at 23:15:01
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 08/12/06 at 20:43:16:
Just a wild idea, I haven't checked it, so it might be complete nonsense. But my instinct tells me, that it is worth a serious look.
24.Ne2 Qxh4 25.g4!?

Scholar, was there an objection against 23...a5 ?


Against 23...a5,  24.Nd5 would appear to force 24...Qg3 anyway, and so Black has just restricted his options.  I would also have to consider 24.g4 via this move order (and this is the more honest objection).  Part of my reason to prefer the immediate 23...Qg3 is laziness -- Black does not need to worry about an immediate g4 -- but 23...a5 24.g4 looks quite good for White, and is probably even winning.

Your first line is interesting, and there are a few move orders where White sacrifices a pawn in order to get in g4.  Some of them are unclear, but in general, I think that Black can accept the material and defend.  That looks to be true here: 24.Ne2 Qxh4 25.g4 hxg4 26.Rxg4 and my impression is that Black can defend with Qf6 or the fancy Qh8.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10716
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #196 - 08/12/06 at 20:43:16
Post Tools
Just a wild idea, I haven't checked it, so it might be complete nonsense. But my instinct tells me, that it is worth a serious look.
24.Ne2 Qxh4 25.g4!?

Scholar, was there an objection against 23...a5 ?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #195 - 08/12/06 at 07:32:55
Post Tools
No surprises here: I am ready to make the move [b]22...c5[/b].  This is part of the general plan outlined several moves ago where the Black knight continues its circuit: Nf6xd5-f4-e6-d4.  (Next up: b3.)

[b]1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2 c5[/b]

The current position is:
[center][img]http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.php?fen=1r1r2k1/p1qbpp2/4n1p1/2p4p/N1P4P/1P2QP2/P1B3P1/2KR2R1[/img][/center]

and I will offer the conditional move [b]if 23.Nc3 then 23...Qg3[/b].  I would prefer to place the knight on its optimal squares immediately, but I have been unsuccessful in finding a way to continue the attack (Black's attack, that is!) after 23...Nd4 24.Qxe7.  (If this can be done, I would be very interested in the analysis.  Black is by no means compelled to play 23...Qg3; one may compare 23...Qf4 to other incarnations of that move, for example.)

If the conditional move is accepted (almost a certainty -- White lacks any real alternative) then the following position is reached.

[center][img]http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.php?fen=1r1r2k1/p2bpp2/4n1p1/2p4p/2P4P/1PN1QPq1/P1B3P1/2KR2R1[/img][/center]

White now has a wide choice of moves, which I shall leave it to Ostap to discuss -- I do not think that White can win, but any reasonable move preserves his ability to force a draw.  As a joke, I was going to write that only 24.Be4 would surprise me, but it turns out that even that is playable...so I will stop analyzing while I still have my sanity, and wait for the next move.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #194 - 08/11/06 at 03:24:11
Post Tools
Scholar,

No problem - and thanks for letting me know.  I can now spend some time on some French 'homework' that I've been neglecting lately.

I think there are are few lines which could be dangerous for Black after 22...c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 but, based on what I've examined so far, they are all avoidable (frustratingly so, from my perspective).  So far I think I might have a virtually forced draw in one line I'm considering and a possibility of a slight, but not entirely clear, edge in another.  There is also the endgame you have shown with queens still on the board which, to me at least, seems very unclear - to such an extent that I worry about whether deeper analysis might reveal that Black has an advantage, or even winning chances.  Should we go down the 24.Nd5 Nd4 path this will be an ending I'll need to look at very carefully before committing to it.

I'll check in on this thread again, with much anticipation, on Sunday night then.

Cheers,
Ostap
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #193 - 08/11/06 at 02:32:08
Post Tools
Ostap,

Thanks for letting me know.  I could probably make a decision now, but I'd rather take the extra day to make sure that I won't be facing any surprises after 22...c5, since we are at a rather critical juncture.  If I end up playing that I should be able to make the next couple of moves pretty quickly, though, and I'll even throw in a conditional move to sweeten the deal.

Enjoy the weekend!

Cheers,
Scholar
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #192 - 08/11/06 at 01:10:14
Post Tools
Scholar,

FYI, I will be going out of town for the weekend.  If you get your move posted today I will probably get a chance to consider my reply and post a move early next week.  If not, I will probably not start considering my reply until after I get back (of course, I've analyzed a few lines already and may have guessed correctly which ones to look at).

In other words, if you are not able to post a move today then there is no reason to post it before Sunday night.

Cheers,
Ostap      Smiley
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #191 - 08/10/06 at 15:40:41
Post Tools
[quote author=Scholar link=1151879306/180#190 date=1155186007] [b]22...c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Bxg6 fxg6 26.Qxe7 Rf8 27.Rxd4 cxd4 28.Qxd7 Rf7 29.Qe6 Rbf8[/b] is a long line, not forced by any means, which gives somewhat typical play (maybe best play, both both sides have some interesting deviations).  I think that these endgames are harder for White to play for a win, and although I may be badly mistaken, at least *I* have a harder time determining what White should do, since the Black queen covers a lot of ground on g3, and he can/will give back the exchange if White ever plays f4.[/quote]
This is a pretty line leading a very interesting ending.  I had the position after 24...Nd4 on the board at one point and missed the 25.Bxg6 idea, having developed the mindset that it only works after ...Qxh4 (as I'd found in other variations). I agree with you that it's not easy to find a way for White to play for a win here (the d4-pawn is a rather nasty distraction!).  However, there are options on moves 24 and 25, so I'm not entirely sure this ending is White's best prospect.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #190 - 08/10/06 at 05:00:07
Post Tools
[quote author=OstapBender link=1151879306/180#189 date=1155104439]
Looking at your choices I'd say that:
22...Qf4 is what I'm expecting, and it's difficult for me to imagine that White's advantage will be big enough to convert to the full point.  There are a few key decisions to make, and I suppose that it may take a few moves into this endgame before this becomes entirely clear.[/quote]

I agree that White's advantage is probably insufficient for 1-0, but I think that Black is clearly, if only slightly, worse.  I'll play this if there is nothing better, but I'd rather find a line that equalizes more easily.  (Partially, this is because I feel that the weakest part of my chess is the middlegame-endgame transition, and so I am trying to learn to become more patient.  On the other hand, my experiences playing OTB in sudden death time controls have demonstrated that rather the opposite is true: better to trade that = for 'slightly worse' and save the ten minutes.)

[quote]22...Qg3 is very tempting, but it's difficult to make an absolutely certain assessment.[/quote]

I'm actually no longer very enthusiastic about this move, since Black appears to lack an effective continuation if White plays slowly.  Sure, 23.Qxa7 is bad for White, but other than that trap...

[quote]22...c5 was the first move I worried about when I considered 22.Bc2 (even before MNb had mentioned it) and it is this move in particular which caused me to prefer Bc2 over Bb1.  The line 22...c5 23.Nc3 Nd4 works perfectly against Bb1, but it fails against Bc2 (at least that's my impression based on what I've analyzed so far).  22...c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 is interesting; I've looked at some lines which look reasonably promising for White but haven't analyzed deep enough to get a clear assessment.  I'd put this line in a similar category as 22...Qg3.  Although it could be an improved version of the ...Qg3 idea (since the c5-pawn shields a7 from the white queen), it also could be a slightly worse version (since White's knight is on c3 instead of a5).  Tough call.  Unclear?
[/quote]

I agree that the bishop on c2 lends the additional suppport to b3 to keep White safe from Black's tricks.  My main reason for preferring this to Qg3 is that playing c5 makes d4 a nice spot for the Black knight, and so Black has a reasonable development scheme.

[b]22...c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Bxg6 fxg6 26.Qxe7 Rf8 27.Rxd4 cxd4 28.Qxd7 Rf7 29.Qe6 Rbf8[/b] is a long line, not forced by any means, which gives somewhat typical play (maybe best play, both both sides have some interesting deviations).  I think that these endgames are harder for White to play for a win, and although I may be badly mistaken, at least *I* have a harder time determining what White should do, since the Black queen covers a lot of ground on g3, and he can/will give back the exchange if White ever plays f4.  Here's a diagram:

[center][img]http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.php?fen=
5rk1/p4r2/4Q1p1/3N3p/2Pp3P/1P3Pq1/P5P1/2K3R1[/img][/center]

I'll check a few of the possible earlier deivations more carefully, but I'd say that I am more like than not to prefer this to 22...Qf4, not to decline the implied draw offer, but just for the sake of playing the moves I think are best.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #189 - 08/09/06 at 06:20:39
Post Tools
[quote author=Scholar link=1151879306/180#188 date=1155101063][quote author=OstapBender link=1151879306/180#184 date=1155060326]If the game follows a course similar to the one I expect I think we will soon arrive at a point where Black has achieved an ending which arguably should be drawn with careful play (hopefully, it will not turn out worse than this for White but I will not rule out anything yet!).  If we reach such a position in the next few moves, I suggest that we consider the option of calling the game a draw in order to begin discussion of alternative lines passed over earlier in the game - given that we have probably passed the critical point as far as opening theory is concerned.[/quote]

That would be fine with me -- I would be willing to play out the game, but of course it could take months to reach a position where the outcome would be clear (at least to me), and I am certainly interested in hearing your thoughts about earlier positions.  Although it may be too early to start mixing drinks, I will say that I appreciate the time and energy that you've spent on the game, and you've certainly forced me to work hard to maintain the balance.

Personally, I think that anything other than a draw at this point will be the result of poor play on my part.  It's not really an endorsement of the opening idea to reach a position and say that after several months of suffering Black could probably draw, but sometimes that's all there is :-)[/quote]
Yes, I'm pretty well convinced by the likely queenless positions that I've run across that Black should either have equal chances or at least be able to hold one of the slightly worse endings which could result.  Some might be unbalanced enough that the outcome would be determined by the relative endgame skills of the two players, but this is more likely to be true over the board than in the type of game that we are playing.

[quote author=Scholar link=1151879306/180#188 date=1155101063]I wouldn't say that I've narrowed down the candidate moves down just yet, but here are the plans I view as most likely at the moment:

[b]22...Qf4 23.Qxf4 Nxf4[/b] and Black defends a slightly worse endgame; I haven't decided what White's best plan here would be (probably centralizing the rooks, but there are many ways to do this), though I suspect that Black has made his own life more difficult than it needs to be and that there is a more clever way of arranging a queen trade.  Nevertheless, this is a very safe option to fall back on, and it is possible that Black's position will turn out to be easy to play after a little more study.

Therefore, I will spend some time on more ambitious moves, and the two related ideas which seem promising currently are [b]22...Qg3[/b], which has been on the table for a while now, and [b]22...c5[/b], which is the most natural move in the position.  I'm not giving anything away by saying that [b]23.Nc3[/b] is forced when Nd4 is daring (but probably unsound) and now [b]Qg3[/b] again seems interesting.[/quote]
Looking at your choices I'd say that:
[list][*]22...Qf4 is what I'm expecting, and it's difficult for me to imagine that White's advantage will be big enough to convert to the full point.  There are a few key decisions to make, and I suppose that it may take a few moves into this endgame before this becomes entirely clear.
[*]22...Qg3 is very tempting, but it's difficult to make an absolutely certain assessment.  There are so many alternatives to consider in some of the key lines (in fact, I think 22...Qg3 was really the move that convinced to just stop analyzing and post my move; it seems that I could keep tweaking these lines forever and never be sure I had them figured out!).  Analyzing variations I've found at least a few lines which initially look very safe for Black - even dead equal, but seeming minor improvements for White can make the line very favorable for White (I may be missing improvements for Black which turn the assessment back to equal on some of these).  Anyway, my guess is that 22...Qg3 might offer the best chances of fully equalizing but there is a real risk of misassessing a key line and drawing the wrong conclusion about the move.  I think I'm starting to understand what the 'unclear' symbol signifies.
[*]22...c5 was the first move I worried about when I considered 22.Bc2 (even before MNb had mentioned it) and it is this move in particular which caused me to prefer Bc2 over Bb1.  The line 22...c5 23.Nc3 Nd4 works perfectly against Bb1, but it fails against Bc2 (at least that's my impression based on what I've analyzed so far).  22...c5 23.Nc3 Qg3 is interesting; I've looked at some lines which look reasonably promising for White but haven't analyzed deep enough to get a clear assessment.  I'd put this line in a similar category as 22...Qg3.  Although it could be an improved version of the ...Qg3 idea (since the c5-pawn shields a7 from the white queen), it also could be a slightly worse version (since White's knight is on c3 instead of a5).  Tough call.  Unclear?
[/list]
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #188 - 08/09/06 at 05:24:23
Post Tools
[quote author=OstapBender link=1151879306/180#184 date=1155060326]If the game follows a course similar to the one I expect I think we will soon arrive at a point where Black has achieved an ending which arguably should be drawn with careful play (hopefully, it will not turn out worse than this for White but I will not rule out anything yet!).  If we reach such a position in the next few moves, I suggest that we consider the option of calling the game a draw in order to begin discussion of alternative lines passed over earlier in the game - given that we have probably passed the critical point as far as opening theory is concerned.[/quote]

That would be fine with me -- I would be willing to play out the game, but of course it could take months to reach a position where the outcome would be clear (at least to me), and I am certainly interested in hearing your thoughts about earlier positions.  Although it may be too early to start mixing drinks, I will say that I appreciate the time and energy that you've spent on the game, and you've certainly forced me to work hard to maintain the balance.

Personally, I think that anything other than a draw at this point will be the result of poor play on my part.  It's not really an endorsement of the opening idea to reach a position and say that after several months of suffering Black could probably draw, but sometimes that's all there is :-)

I wouldn't say that I've narrowed down the candidate moves down just yet, but here are the plans I view as most likely at the moment:

[b]22...Qf4 23.Qxf4 Nxf4[/b] and Black defends a slightly worse endgame; I haven't decided what White's best plan here would be (probably centralizing the rooks, but there are many ways to do this), though I suspect that Black has made his own life more difficult than it needs to be and that there is a more clever way of arranging a queen trade.  Nevertheless, this is a very safe option to fall back on, and it is possible that Black's position will turn out to be easy to play after a little more study.

Therefore, I will spend some time on more ambitious moves, and the two related ideas which seem promising currently are [b]22...Qg3[/b], which has been on the table for a while now, and [b]22...c5[/b], which is the most natural move in the position.  I'm not giving anything away by saying that [b]23.Nc3[/b] is forced when Nd4 is daring (but probably unsound) and now [b]Qg3[/b] again seems interesting.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #187 - 08/09/06 at 03:52:41
Post Tools
Some thoughts on the decision between 22.Rd2 and 22.Bc2:

First of all, once I decided against 22.g4 these were the only moves that seriously came into consideration.  22.Bb1, which I also listed as a candidate, may well be similar to Bc2 but at best it's just a weaker version of the same idea.  Based on what I looked at, Black has more options after Bb1 than after Bc2.

22.Rd2 is the most logical move once 22.g4 is discarded since it threatens to double on the d-file while at the same time preventing the pin by ...Qf4, and initially it was the only alternative I considered.  But as I noticed the problems arising from the possibility of ...Qe5 and the unprotected status of the e7-pawn, retreating the bishop starting making a whole lot of sense.  As I started comparing the two moves, I came to the conclusion that 22.Bc2 simply gave Black more problems to solve and more chances to go wrong.

When it finally came down to comparing the most logical best play (more like best guess) lines for each of the moves, I concluded that White came out no worse in the Bc2 lines (in fact, maybe slightly better) - this pretty much sealed the choice.  (as I state earlier a deeper look at both moves might very well have reversed the order of preference, but real life kinda forces one to resist the temptation to "analyze forever.")

At this point, I would contend that if White cannot maintain an edge after 22.Bc2 it is probably not due to this move but rather due to either:

    [1] a missed opportunity earlier, or
    [2] an overoptimistic assessment of White's prospects after 17.c4 Nf4


If [2] then I am tremendously impressed with Scholar's judgement of that position.  Regardless, I'm already very impressed with (and frustrated by) the accuracy of his play thus far.

In any event, I think we still have at least a few moves before things become completely clarified.  
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #186 - 08/09/06 at 03:20:57
Post Tools
22...Qf4 looks just fine for Black.  However, Black still hasn't solved all his problems with a queen swap.  White still has king-side pressure and Black hasn't proven the attacking usefulness of Ra-b8.  

Black will need to contest the d-file in order to balance White's pawn storm.  I think Scholar can do this.  If I was writing for Informant here, I'd probably put an infinity sign over  "=".  That's what GMs do when they don't know isn't it?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #185 - 08/09/06 at 00:34:35
Post Tools
Sacapawn wrote on 08/08/06 at 07:03:13:
I had expected 22.Rd2 to be played and it looks like White can keep some pressure. What variations did you have in mind then?

After 22.Bc2 I don't see any problems for Black after swapping queens with 22.-,Qf4.


OstapBender wrote on 08/08/06 at 14:02:41:
I think 22.Bc2 is a good move, but wouldn't be surprised if 22.Rd2 could be shown to be a (slightly) better choice.  I would, however, be very surprised if 22.g4 could be shown to be the move that should have been played.


I have looked at both 22.Rd2 and 22.g4 in some detail and think that Black is fine; 22.Bc2 seems like a good move, and may even be best.  The main difficulty for Black here is analyzing g4 at every turn, and so postponing it makes his task more difficult, but if it White decides that it can never be played that just means that Black has spent a lot of energy but was never really worse.

Concretely, I agree with Ostap about 22.g4 hxg4 23.fxg4 Qe5.

Alternatively, 22.Rd2 c5 23.Nc3 Nd4 seems sufficient for Black, who still intends Qe5, and would play 24.g4 hxg4 25.fxg4 Qe5.  White has other choices at move 24, but I felt confident that Black could hold.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #184 - 08/08/06 at 18:05:26
Post Tools
Scholar,

If the game follows a course similar to the one I expect I think we will soon arrive at a point where Black has achieved an ending which arguably should be drawn with careful play (hopefully, it will not turn out worse than this for White but I will not rule out anything yet!).  If we reach such a position in the next few moves, I suggest that we consider the option of calling the game a draw in order to begin discussion of alternative lines passed over earlier in the game - given that we have probably passed the critical point as far as opening theory is concerned.

We can, of course, also play the game out to it's logical conclusion - this is also fine with me.  The endgame will be unbalanced and interesting, and I, for one, could learn a good deal from playing it through.  However, given the aspect of the thread devoted to getting at the truth of the line under investigation (i.e., 13...Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15.b3 Qc7) , I wanted to put this other option on the table for consideration.

Of course, if we never reach such a position my suggestion becomes a moot point.

Your somewhat humbled* opponent,
Ostap

(*i.e., quite frustrated by his inability to find the win he has been talking about... Embarrassed)
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #183 - 08/08/06 at 14:02:41
Post Tools
Lines based 22.Rd2 didn't look very promising, but it's possible I didn't look at them thoroughly enough.  There is definitely a point in this type of game when you get tired of looking further and just go with the best move you've found so far (especially, if you have two of these games going at the same time!).

I think 22.Bc2 is a good move, but wouldn't be surprised if 22.Rd2 could be shown to be a (slightly) better choice.  I would, however, be very surprised if 22.g4 could be shown to be the move that should have been played.

My conclusion, particularly after trying unsuccessfully to make 22.g4 work, is that Black is close to equalizing here and that overambitious play on my part could actually land white in a difficult situation.  Over the board, I probably would have played g2-g4 already by this point, but in this type of game - with 4 days or more to come up with a move - Black's proper defense is all too easy to find.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Sacapawn
Full Member
***
Offline


International Master

Posts: 119
Location: Stockholm
Joined: 05/27/05
Gender: Male
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #182 - 08/08/06 at 07:03:13
Post Tools
I had expected 22.Rd2 to be played and it looks like White can keep some pressure. What variations did you have in mind then?

After 22.Bc2 I don't see any problems for Black after swapping queens with 22.-,Qf4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #181 - 08/08/06 at 04:09:53
Post Tools
Some quick thoughts:

As I guess is obvious from my last post, I didn't consider this move likely, and so I have quite a bit of work to do.  I think c2 is a natural place for the bishop, overprotecting b3 etc., but the fact that White's more natural alternatives (g4, Rd2) appear insufficient suggests that Black is fine.  The maneuver Be4-c2 does prevent the Rxd1+/Ng7/Bf5 pathway as opposed to the immediate Bc2, but it gives Black some more time to improve, and I don't think that Bd7 is a wasted move.

If Ostap is correct in asserting that g4 is impossible, then White will have to expend another couple of tempi before getting anything concrete going.  I don't think that White lacks plans in the current position, but it now seems more likely that Black will get an attack on the White king than [i]vice versa[/i].

Secretly, I think that White is trying for too much in a position that is already close to equal; since forcing lines lead to only small advantages, it is easy to favor moves which lead to more unclear assessments.  I think that Black will have to make a few more mistakes if White is to win.

The immediate c5 is a reasonable try, although Black should worry a little about weakening d5 (a good square for the White knight).  In addition (and no particular order) Qf4, Be8, Qg3, Rb7, Kg7, etc. are now possible.  The queen trade is not very ambitious, and perhaps has a concrete drawback, but very superficially, I think that Black has made a lot of progress since we last discussed this possibility.  His development is almost complete, White no longer threatens an attack on the kingside (earlier, the queenless middlegame might still have been dangerous), and Black can secure his share of the d-file.

Of course, I reserve the right to take all of this back if I have misjudged Bc2 :-)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #180 - 08/08/06 at 02:49:38
Post Tools
Scholar,

My next move is 22.Bc2:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7 22.Bc2

current position


Once again, the toothless g2-g4 ("g" is for gummer) doesn't cut it.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #179 - 08/07/06 at 23:30:36
Post Tools

Here's one problem with 22.g4.  After 22...hxg4 23.fxg4 (23.Rxg4 is no better) 23...Qe5 we arrive at the following position


after 23...Qe5

(analysis position)


where I cannot find a continuation for White which does not allow Black to quickly equalize (at least).

Moves like 25.h5, 24.Rg3, 24.Rde1, 24.Rgf1, 24.Nb2 all look plausible for a move or two but none lead anywhere promising for White (at least not in the lines I am looking at).  If anyone can provide a convincing (i.e., supported by some kind of analysis) argument why the above position is something White should strive for, or can show how White can reach a better position than this after 22.g4, then I might be persuaded that 22.g4 really is the way to go.  Otherwise, one of the other candidate moves which I mentioned seems a more likely choice.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #178 - 08/07/06 at 03:41:47
Post Tools
MNb,

I understand your general point about the danger of my attacking prospects disappearing and the specific point about ...c5 (with the idea of supporting ...Nd4) being a good plan for Black.  However, just because I would like to attack with g2-g4 doesn't mean that this is going to be the best plan in this position.  Although 22.g4 is an acceptable move in the current position, I'm not entirely convinced it's the best.  The very real, potential drawback of this move is that Black can force an endgame where White's g4-pawn is a serious weakness.  As such, it is all too easy to wind up in a prospectless endgame if I limit my choices or make my decision too carelessly.

I will not play a move such as 22.Bc2 just for the sake of subtle maneuvering, but only in the event that investigation of specific variations suggest to me that it gives White better prospects than the more direct 22.g4.

Black's awkward piece placement is, in my opinion, also an important a factor in this position (maybe as important as the more obvious possibility to damage Black's kingside pawn structure with g2-g4).

I will take heed of your warning about losing the opportunity to attack (if indeed such an opportunity still exists), but I will also carefully investigate all options.  Right now both 22.g4 and less direct methods such as 22.Bc2 are still under consideration.  It's a complex decision I think.

BTW, based on what I've looked at so far 22...c5 (the first response that came to my mind) may not be as strong an answer (to the bishop retreat) as it appears at first glance.

I will of course choose my move carefully, and hopefully correctly.  Thus far, I'm happy with all of my move choices in the game so far with the possible exception of 19.Rg1 (the only move that I played quickly and rather automatically, without considering alternatives).

Finally: I respect your judgement (a fan of Spielmann should know about such things as the window of opportunity for an attack) and will be sure to weigh g2-g4, whether immediately or after suitable preparation, very heavily into my plans.
« Last Edit: 08/07/06 at 04:57:39 by OstapBender »  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10716
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #177 - 08/07/06 at 02:01:25
Post Tools
To me 22...c5 looks a good response to both 22.Bb1 and 22.Bc2. Ostapbender, I must warn you. Too much subtle manoeuvring in this kind of position might very well lead to your opponent just improving his pieces, while your attack will be further away then ever. You should concentrate on the question how to get g2-g4 in as advantageous as possible.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #176 - 08/06/06 at 22:02:23
Post Tools
After another look at the position, I think that retreating the bishop from e4 might also be a useful move to consider.  This takes care of the threat of ...Qe5 in the most direct way possible.  The pressure exerted on the c6-pawn by the e4-bishop is less of a factor after Black's last move.  At the same time Black's bishop on d7 leaves the e7-pawn unprotected, discouraging (or perhaps ruling out altogether) 22...Ng7 (compared to the analogous position with the bishop still on c8: after 21.Bc2 one move earlier 21...Ng7 was a strong response).  There are two similar, but perhaps subtly different, bishop retreats to consider: Bc2 and Bb1.

Now the candidate moves list is:

  • 22.g4
  • 22.Rd2
  • 22.Bc2
  • 22.Bb1

  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #175 - 08/05/06 at 21:14:11
Post Tools
Scholar,

21...Bd7 was, of course, no big surprise.  Since I can't find anything close to a refutation, I think it's a good choice.  I wouldn't be surprised if it even proved to be the best choice, although I will do my best in the game continuation to make one of the unchosen alternatives look more attractive! Wink

At the moment, my main candidate moves are:

  • 22.g4
  • 22.Rd2


There are some knight and bishop (and even queen and king) moves possible, but none of these looks like a serious contender right now.

I'm currently leaning toward 22.g4 (which, based on my previous posts, means the smart money is on my choice being 22.Rd2).  Still a bit to work through.  I have a few other things to work on (chesswise and otherwise) and don't expect to have it sufficiently sorted out before Monday night, but will attempt to post my move (or ask for patience) then.

Cheers,
Ostap
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #174 - 08/05/06 at 01:52:01
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 08/03/06 at 10:08:22:
Although I was sure you'd see this pretty quickly, this tactic was one of the reasons for choosing 21.Be4. After 21.Bc2, I thought that 21...Rxd1+ 22.Rxd1 Ng7 was one of Black's strongest replies (maybe the strongest) with 23...Bf5 likely to come on the next move when Black has pretty much solved the vexing piece coordination problems that have been one of the major obstacles to equalizing.


I agree completely.  I thought that the above might shed some light into why 21.Be4 was to be preferred to 21.Bc2 for the more casual readers, as well as give them a nice tactic while I pondered my move.

Now we return to business: my move is 21...Bd7 which continues the middlegame maneuvering (and finally, Black connects the rooks).  The position may now become fairly complex, but Ostap's earlier suggestions of Rd2 and g4 are surely still at the top of the list.  White can also continue with a more subtle approach (basically all of his pieces other than the queen and bishop can be improved).  Black hopes to find enough counterplay not to be blown off the board; if I have been too ambitious here, then probably 21...Qe5 will be preferred in the future.

So White has many choices here, and Black has many responses, although 22...Qe5 is still the main threat.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 16.h4 h5 17.c4 Nf4 18.Qe3 Rb8 19.Rg1 Ne6 20.Bd3 Rd8 21.Be4 Bd7

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #173 - 08/03/06 at 10:08:22
Post Tools
Scholar wrote on 08/03/06 at 07:19:25:
I'm not sure what you mean by dicey knight retreats (probably you have in mind what I am about to describe), but in any event, I'll enliven this thread with the following tactic.

Scholar,

Yes, I also worked out that 22...Ng7? (which is a good move in the Bc2 line) more or less loses to 23.Bxc6 since 23...Qxc6?? is not possible on account of 24.Rd8+ Kh7? (allows the pretty mate, but 24...Ne8 still loses after 25.Qxe7) 25.Qh6+! Kxh6 26.Rh8#.

Although I was sure you'd see this pretty quickly, this tactic was one of the reasons for choosing 21.Be4. After 21.Bc2, I thought that 21...Rxd1+ 22.Rxd1 Ng7 was one of Black's strongest replies (maybe the strongest) with 23...Bf5 likely to come on the next move when Black has pretty much solved the vexing piece coordination problems that have been one of the major obstacles to equalizing.

22...Ng7 was what I mainly had in mind when I mentioned dicey knight retreats, but I also thought that 22...Nf8 did not look very appealing either (no hidden, nasty tactic though).
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: OstapBender-Scholar, Yugoslav 9.0-0-0 d5
Reply #172 - 08/03/06 at 07:19:25
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 08/02/06 at 04:58:11:
21...Rxd1+ lines are safest, although you need to take some care in choosing your 22nd move (e.g., some of the knight retreats can get dicey, I think).  My only objection to these lines is that the d-file is relinquished immediately which may give White a safe edge.


I'm not sure what you mean by dicey knight retreats (probably you have in mind what I am about to describe), but in any event, I'll enliven this thread with the following tactic.

Following 21.Bc2 Rxd1+ 22.Rxd1 Ng7!? appears to give Black an equal endgame (assuming that my analysis is correct; this is the continuation I alluded to in my previous post).  It would be natural to try the same thing in this position, but now 21.Be4 Rxd1+ 22.Rxd1 Ng7?! runs into a nice tactic (and so 22...a5 or 22...f5 is probably better)



White to move


So I'll give you a few seconds to think about that...

In the game after 21.Be4, it's not so clear to me that one endgame (21...Rxd1+) is any better than the other (21...Qe5) as I think that in either case, White can't really conjure up much of an attack after a pair of rooks are off the board.  It seems that the queens are soon to be exchanged, and Black should probably hold the resulting endgames.

Of course, it would be nice to aim for the most pleasant endgame possible, and so looking into some long variations is the only way forward.  In general, I think that Black's kingside majority is sufficient to offset the broken queenside pawns, since Black typically develops a passed pawn first which can then be used to gain time for Black to move he king to the queenside.  With reduced material, that should draw.

The tactic above is 21.Bxc6 which gives Black the opportunity to resign with Qxc6?? 22.Rd8+ Kh7 23.Qh6+ Kxh6 24.Rh8# which is a final position worthy of its own diagram.


1-0

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04