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Poll Question: Who is the greatest player of all time?
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Fischer    
  31 (41.9%)
Kasparov    
  28 (37.8%)
Capablanca    
  3 (4.1%)
Karpov    
  2 (2.7%)
Alekhine    
  0 (0.0%)
Morphy    
  2 (2.7%)
Botvinnik    
  2 (2.7%)
Tal    
  1 (1.4%)
Smyslov    
  0 (0.0%)
Lasker    
  5 (6.8%)




Total votes: 74
« Created by: Keano on: 07/05/06 at 14:59:59 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Who is the greatest player of all time? (Read 35508 times)
ReneDescartes
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Re: Who is the greatest player of all time?
Reply #107 - 11/30/24 at 04:23:06
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A subjective question, for it depends on which qualities you value. Peak dominance? Fischer. Highest absolute move quality or "intrinsic rating"? Capablanca. Most awed contemporaries? Capablanca. Sustained high level (definite integral of strength over career)? Kasparov. Peak FIDE rating? Carlsen. Tournament beast? Karpov. Most ahead of his time? Lasker. Most terrifying when in form? Fischer. Greatest impression of genius in games? Capablanca (even Carlsen cited Capablanca as the standard here). Mentally toughest? Lasker never went on tilt. Fewest chess weaknesses? Carlsen (but he goes on tilt and lacks the will for classical matches).

I voted for Fischer.

  
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Re: Who is the greatest player of all time?
Reply #106 - 11/29/24 at 20:25:23
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I'm reminded of Christof Sielecki opining some years ago (during banter blitz; see link) that Kasparov is the greatest player, although Carlsen is almost certainly better in terms of "pure quality of moves."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP7gexEJm4Q&t=5358s

(I miss Sielecki's weekly banter blitz/Geschwätzblitz. That is, he would do a "show" in one language and then one in the other. I recall him making a gesture of something like turning a switch on his head in order to effect the change.)

« Last Edit: 11/29/24 at 22:15:06 by kylemeister »  
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Re: Who is the greatest player of all time?
Reply #105 - 11/29/24 at 13:53:33
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I find it hard to judge as I think there is a tendency to say older players like Capablanca were just so much better than their competition ("natural talent"), whereas more modern players have played the game at a much higher level than it was back in the day (they "know" more or "worked harder"). Even Fischer falls to that criticism i.e., versus Kasparov, at least to some. Apples and oranges. You don't have to be the greatest ever to beat your competition, just better than them. And that would be true for each generation of players.
  
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Keano
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Re: Who is the greatest player of all time?
Reply #104 - 11/29/24 at 03:41:51
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Anand has also said Fischer so I guess thats it, we could do another one to include Carlsen but even he says he has not got near Kasparov
  
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Re: Who is the greatest player of all time?
Reply #103 - 08/07/06 at 03:36:49
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/07/06 at 00:05:10:

Rubinstein won many great tournaments.  He also had many mundane performances.  A check of his life-time statistics, or Schlechter's, would suggest they were both mediocre players.  Yet GrandMasters, artists in their own right, consider these two players very highly.  Perhaps just a check of life-time statistics isn't a good enough measure of greatness.


With some optimism I count
Carlsbad 1907 (no Tarrasch, no Lasker)
St Petersburg 1909
San Sebastian 1912 (no Capablanca, no Lasker)
Bad Pistyan 1912 (idem)
Breslau 1912 (idem).

That is an admirable amount for sure and I have stated two times before, that Lasker should have played with Rubinstein instead of Janowsky. Still it is just a bit less impressive than Lasker's and Capablanca's.
I think with some prudence statistics can be used, especially as the other players, including the WCh's, did not win every tournament and match they played either. I really don't see, why life-time statistics should lead to the conclusion, that Rubinstein and Schlechter (or someone else) were mediocre players. At the other hand, neglecting such data inevitably leads to statements like "I vote X, because many GM's consider him so highly and I have played through a couple of great games and I don't bother about other candidates."  As a consequence it seems, as if Bogo's performances at the aforementioned tournaments don't have any value. It's fine with me to have a favourite, but I'd rather avoid total subjectiveness.
What I have done is comparing the achievements of several reasonable candidates. My conclusion is that Rubinstein, Keres and Fine were the strongest non-WCh's before 1945, each within a limited amount of years.  From them I think only the latter could have made it to the title.
Until now I have not read any argument against this conclusion.
Of course it is much harder to determine the strongest player of all time with this method. The reason is simple. We can use the contemporary WCh's as a standard. But such a standard is not available for the WCh's themselves.
After long hesitation I voted Karpov in this poll, mainly because I suspected that way too many have voted Kasparov and Fischer. Speaking of total subjectiveness!  Huh

PS Rubinstein had a life-time score of 55% against my hero, which leads me to the undisputed conclusion that he was on average the stronger one.  Wink
  

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Re: Who is the greatest player of all time?
Reply #102 - 08/07/06 at 00:05:10
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There's a typically boring way to explain why Fischer has the most votes.  Any pollster will tell you that the first named option gets more votes than any others, all things being equal.

There was the comment that there are a large number of Americans (meaning from the United States, I presume) here.  I'm an American, but most of the people I chat with seem to be European.  I started two football threads at close to the same time.  The English football thread flourished while the American football thread floundered.  It's not absolute evidence, but I suggest there may be a link between Euro-centricism and football here.

Having said all that, I agree with Markovich.  Fischer was indeed great, but to place him ahead of Kasparov reeks of a false nostalgia.

Regarding GM Spraggett's comments on Fischer's openings:

Fischer didn't invent openings, but he did recreate them in his own image.  This is more than just a matter of style, but of preparation and move order.  While there may not be an official "Fischer Variation", anyone who plays the Najdorf, Exchange Spanish, Main-line Spanish, or any of the dozen or so openings that Fischer played has to know how Fischer handled the positions and how to refute some of his ideas.

I have stated many times that I am not a fan of Fischer, but his chess games were brilliant works of art.  His style was most often seen in the late middlegame, but he was a complete player along the lines of Rubinstein, Karpov and Kasparov.

I'll also comment on GM Spragget's mention of Rubinstein's performance.  We all know that statistics lie.  To look up a player's total tournament performance and come to the conclusion that he wasn't as good as another player isn't fair.  Emmanuel Lasker is a classic case in point.  He played well when he had to (except in the match against Capa).  Many great players played to the level of their competition but rose to certain challenges.  Smyslov was one such player in the 1950s.

Rubinstein won many great tournaments.  He also had many mundane performances.  A check of his life-time statistics, or Schlechter's, would suggest they were both mediocre players.  Yet GrandMasters, artists in their own right, consider these two players very highly.  Perhaps just a check of life-time statistics isn't a good enough measure of greatness.
  
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Re: Who is the greatest player of all time?
Reply #101 - 08/06/06 at 14:56:19
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Well I'm glad you're having fun with it!  I must admit that I'm biased against it because I have no positional judgement and therefore rely on setting up 1 and 2 move threats to win the few games that I do.
  
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Re: Who is the greatest player of all time?
Reply #100 - 08/04/06 at 19:49:08
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Quote:
I don't like, however, how he helped popularise the matches/tournaments where a player gets to use a computer during the game.  I know Tony Kosten has recently done this, but I find it distasteful.


I am just preparing myself for my old age, when I can't calculate properly any more (!), as then I will just play these 'Centaur' tournaments, and hope that my positional judgement will ideally compliment the computer's tactical foresight! Cry
Actually, I find these things quite good fun, and need completely different thought processes to a normal game - you can't hope that your opponent will miss a mate in five! Shocked
  
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Re: Who is the greatest player of all time?
Reply #99 - 08/03/06 at 08:02:41
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woofwoof wrote on 08/02/06 at 17:35:01:


Fischer's was more an aggressive version of Capablanca.


woofwoof - very nice description of Fischers style. For me his genious was to create a kind of "simple beauty" in the games he played. His games have such a clarity and a logic to them that sometimes you forget the opponents were world class GM´s. I think it is this aspect of Fischer that the Soviets found most startling, they just did not believe it was possible for somebody to do things like this. 
  
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Re: Who is the greatest player of all time?
Reply #98 - 08/02/06 at 17:35:01
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Quote:
Fischer had his own openings


I dont think I can really agree when Spraggett said that. Fischer & GK had quite a few openings in common as both played for tension, open lines & counter-play. Tho admittedly GK has a far wider range of openings . But the real similarities are both played primarily the Lopez as white, KID's & Grunfelds against 1.d4 & the Najdorf against 1.e4.

What wld hv been more correct to say was Fischer had his own style. GK had a much sharper & more dynamic style of the 2. Fischer's was more an aggressive version of Capablanca.
  

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Re: Who is the greatest player of all time?
Reply #97 - 08/02/06 at 07:38:45
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I am not sure of Rubinsteins tournament record but I got the impression Spragett was referring more to his overall contribution to the game in terms of endgame artistry, opening contributions etc. (In these 2 areas he definitely must be up there, but of course chess is a sport and there are other things to consider  Wink )

Frendo - I think Anand is correct, to compare different generations is almost impossible, its good fun though!
  
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Re: Who is the greatest player of all time?
Reply #96 - 08/02/06 at 03:13:12
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I think a couple of Anand's comments are interesting from 2005

"Garry Kasparov has retired from the game."  (Was that actually a question?)

"He seems to have had his reasons or political ambition, as he has mentioned. He is clearly in the league of the all-time greats, like Bobby Fischer.", Anand.

"Do you think he is the greatest chess player ever?"

"He has a phenomenal record, though comparisons between players of different generations are meaningless.", Anand.

So Anand doesn't really answer the question and thinks our discussion here is meaningless.  Really he's probably right, but it is interesting.  

It would be enlightnening if Spragget would explain the Rubinstein tournament record statement.  I don't get that one either right now.



  
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Re: Who is the greatest player of all time?
Reply #95 - 08/02/06 at 02:50:45
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I also find Spraggett's comments curious. Rubinstein "may be the greatest player of all time in terms of his results." A little research shows, that Steinitz, Lasker, Capablanca and Alekhine all had even better results.
My conclusion is that Spraggett does not know the historical facts.
  

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Re: Who is the greatest player of all time?
Reply #94 - 08/01/06 at 18:20:33
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I find some of Spraggett's comments curious.  In comparing Spassky to Kasparov (despite the problematic nature of comparing ratings from different points in time), you're comparing a sub-2700 player to an over-2800 player; e.g., their peak ratings were more than 150 points apart.  Also I don't know what "Fischer had his own openings" means.   
  
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Re: Who is the greatest player of all time?
Reply #93 - 08/01/06 at 16:14:48
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Lasker is in 3rd place with 4 votes, I suppose it really hard to not vote for either Fischer or Kasparov, but Lasker is a very under rated historical figure also, I think I am finding myself agreeing he should come next. A pity Spassky is not on the list in retrospect having seen what Spraggett said
  
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