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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8 (Read 30031 times)
AntonioAg
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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #34 - 11/10/16 at 16:54:00
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Newbies shouldnt worry about theoritical correctness unless there is a clear refutation...
If you want to refute 3.Nc3 you should probably try Qe5+ and Bg4 Cheesy
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #33 - 11/07/16 at 01:15:27
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I played this variation a bit just for fun for a while, because hey, sometimes you just wanna play some chess, but I could never figure why I wanted to be Black after 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 Bg4 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 c6 8.Be3 e6 9.Bd3! (9.O-O-O Bb4! is less clear, so White spends a useful developing move to basically force Black to block the option of ...Qd5) 9...Nbd7 10.O-O-O Bb4 11.Ne2, etc. I also notice that Herberla gave the 3...Qd8 master Djukic a rough time in this line, which doesn't bode well.
  
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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #32 - 11/06/16 at 01:01:32
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AJZ wrote on 10/27/16 at 18:29:43:
TD wrote on 10/27/16 at 15:06:08:
AJZ wrote on 10/27/16 at 13:46:43:
What do you think about Lowinger's book? I couldn't find anything here on the forum.

As a Scandi-newbie I use this book (and therefore 3...Qd8) as my repertoire after 3.Nc3 and later on will probably add Qa5 and/or Qd6 to it. I liked his personal touch. But as a newbie (and a 1900-player) I don't really have an opinion about the theoretical status and correctness of his assessments and analyses.


Ok, thank you. I need to check Shaw's book to discover why he thinks that 3...Qd8 is the best answer.


He thinks 3...Qd8 is the best answer because Black is under serious theoretical pressure after the more popular alternatives 3...Qa5 and 3...Qd6, having said that, Shaw tried 3...Qd8 against Nakamura at the recently concluded Olympiad and was crushed, it was not the fault of the opening though, as he would have been crushed regardless of the opening he chose.
  

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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #31 - 10/27/16 at 18:29:43
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TD wrote on 10/27/16 at 15:06:08:
AJZ wrote on 10/27/16 at 13:46:43:
What do you think about Lowinger's book? I couldn't find anything here on the forum.

As a Scandi-newbie I use this book (and therefore 3...Qd8) as my repertoire after 3.Nc3 and later on will probably add Qa5 and/or Qd6 to it. I liked his personal touch. But as a newbie (and a 1900-player) I don't really have an opinion about the theoretical status and correctness of his assessments and analyses.


Ok, thank you. I need to check Shaw's book to discover why he thinks that 3...Qd8 is the best answer.
  
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TD
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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #30 - 10/27/16 at 15:06:08
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AJZ wrote on 10/27/16 at 13:46:43:
What do you think about Lowinger's book? I couldn't find anything here on the forum.

As a Scandi-newbie I use this book (and therefore 3...Qd8) as my repertoire after 3.Nc3 and later on will probably add Qa5 and/or Qd6 to it. I liked his personal touch. But as a newbie (and a 1900-player) I don't really have an opinion about the theoretical status and correctness of his assessments and analyses.
  
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AJZ
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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #29 - 10/27/16 at 13:46:43
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What do you think about Lowinger's book? I couldn't find anything here on the forum.
  
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applechess
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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #28 - 07/17/16 at 11:21:55
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RdC wrote on 07/15/16 at 11:16:26:
GMTonyKosten wrote on 07/14/16 at 23:32:32:
[quote author=5A495F4B5C575A515F564B4C54390 link=1152466611/22#22 date=1468443085]
Isn't this basically the same as the Van Wissen-Del Rio de Angelis game in the previous posts from 2009? That is 13...Qc8 14.h5 Qxc3+ 15.Kf2 which transposes.


Engines seem to agree that 15. .. Qxa1 is losing, but are willing to advocate 15. .. Qxd4 and 15. .. Bxc2 without consensus. It's a type of position perhaps best avoided in practice where the assessment varies with the search depth and the engine used.

What to make of it? As Black if you play .. Qd8, you might be hacked off the board. Alternatively you might provoke White into over extending if he tries to demolish the opening.

RdC wrote on 07/15/16 at 11:16:26:
GMTonyKosten wrote on 07/14/16 at 23:32:32:
[quote author=5A495F4B5C575A515F564B4C54390 link=1152466611/22#22 date=1468443085]
Isn't this basically the same as the Van Wissen-Del Rio de Angelis game in the previous posts from 2009? That is 13...Qc8 14.h5 Qxc3+ 15.Kf2 which transposes.


Engines seem to agree that 15. .. Qxa1 is losing, but are willing to advocate 15. .. Qxd4 and 15. .. Bxc2 without consensus. It's a type of position perhaps best avoided in practice where the assessment varies with the search depth and the engine used.

What to make of it? As Black if you play .. Qd8, you might be hacked off the board. Alternatively you might provoke White into over extending if he tries to demolish the opening.

RdC wrote on 07/15/16 at 11:16:26:
GMTonyKosten wrote on 07/14/16 at 23:32:32:
[quote author=5A495F4B5C575A515F564B4C54390 link=1152466611/22#22 date=1468443085]
Isn't this basically the same as the Van Wissen-Del Rio de Angelis game in the previous posts from 2009? That is 13...Qc8 14.h5 Qxc3+ 15.Kf2 which transposes.


Engines seem to agree that 15. .. Qxa1 is losing, but are willing to advocate 15. .. Qxd4 and 15. .. Bxc2 without consensus. It's a type of position perhaps best avoided in practice where the assessment varies with the search depth and the engine used.

What to make of it? As Black if you play .. Qd8, you might be hacked off the board. Alternatively you might provoke White into over extending if he tries to demolish the opening.


While 3...Qd8 may still be playable, it is clear to me that this does no longer refer to the line below since my analysis show that neither 15...Qxd4 nor 15...Bxc2 can save Black.

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "?"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd8 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Ne5 e6 8.g4 Bg6 9.h4
  
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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #27 - 07/17/16 at 11:11:58
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 07/14/16 at 23:32:32:
applechess wrote on 07/13/16 at 20:51:25:
A. Martin wrote (after 13...Qa5) "Black obtains sufficient and in some cases very strong counterplay." This is not true as White is busted after 14.Kf2!!


Isn't this basically the same as the Van Wissen-Del Rio de Angelis game in the previous posts from 2009? That is 13...Qc8 14.h5 Qxc3+ 15.Kf2 which transposes.
Incidentally, 13...Qa5 14.h5 must surely be at least as strong as 14.Kf2.


You are right.
  
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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #26 - 07/15/16 at 11:16:26
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 07/14/16 at 23:32:32:
[quote author=5A495F4B5C575A515F564B4C54390 link=1152466611/22#22 date=1468443085]
Isn't this basically the same as the Van Wissen-Del Rio de Angelis game in the previous posts from 2009? That is 13...Qc8 14.h5 Qxc3+ 15.Kf2 which transposes.


Engines seem to agree that 15. .. Qxa1 is losing, but are willing to advocate 15. .. Qxd4 and 15. .. Bxc2 without consensus. It's a type of position perhaps best avoided in practice where the assessment varies with the search depth and the engine used.

What to make of it? As Black if you play .. Qd8, you might be hacked off the board. Alternatively you might provoke White into over extending if he tries to demolish the opening.
  
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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #25 - 07/15/16 at 08:45:42
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 07/14/16 at 23:39:56:
applechess wrote on 07/13/16 at 20:51:25:
The analysis by Andrew Martin may be wrong.


Certainly, I could say on his behalf that analysis engines were much weaker back in 2003, but, on the other hand, the refutation was already played back in 2001 ...

In 1997 Deep Blue has beaten Kasparov in a match but since then enormous progress has still been made by the engines. The magnitude of this is something very difficult to grasp for humans.
In 2003 most of us (if we already were born and playing chess of course) were using Fritz 8 see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_(chess). Well if you compare that with the latest Fritz tested on CCRL see http://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/4040/cgi/compare_engines.cgi?family=Fritz&p... then we see already a gap of 467 ratingpoints (assuming the Bilbao version is not much stronger than the standard one). The leading program Komodo is still 192 ratingpoints stronger than the latest Fritz. That means in total we have seen a raise of 659 points in the last 13 years for the top-engine. Yes we are speaking of a level above any human player so that is also the reason why Magnus politely refuses any match with a top engine.

Just imagine that in 2003 you were asking advise from a 2193 rated person while today you get advise from Magnus (today with a live rating of 2852 points see http://www.2700chess.com/).

Anybody still surprised that most of what has been analysed in the past can be thrown away? In my article of 2014 http://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2014/05/manuals.html I wrote that I redo all analysis older than 2007. Today I would probably already redo anything older than 2010.
  
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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #24 - 07/14/16 at 23:39:56
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applechess wrote on 07/13/16 at 20:51:25:
The analysis by Andrew Martin may be wrong.


Certainly, I could say on his behalf that analysis engines were much weaker back in 2003, but, on the other hand, the refutation was already played back in 2001 ...
  
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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #23 - 07/14/16 at 23:32:32
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applechess wrote on 07/13/16 at 20:51:25:
A. Martin wrote (after 13...Qa5) "Black obtains sufficient and in some cases very strong counterplay." This is not true as White is busted after 14.Kf2!!


Isn't this basically the same as the Van Wissen-Del Rio de Angelis game in the previous posts from 2009? That is 13...Qc8 14.h5 Qxc3+ 15.Kf2 which transposes.
Incidentally, 13...Qa5 14.h5 must surely be at least as strong as 14.Kf2.
  
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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #22 - 07/13/16 at 20:51:25
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Glenn Snow wrote on 07/30/06 at 00:45:30:
Andrew Martin has written on Chesspub that the Banker is very playable.  He also mentioned the article noting that Kogan has updated a lot of the analysis that he (Martin) wrote over 5 years ago.


The analysis by Andrew Martin may be wrong. Black loses after

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "?"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd8 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Ne5 e6 8.g4 Bg6 9.h4 Bb4 10.f3 Nd5 11.Bxd5 cxd5 12.Qe2 Bxc3+ 13.bxc3 Qa5 14.Kf2 Qxc3 15.h5 *

but A. Martin wrote (after 13...Qa5) "Black obtains sufficient and in some cases very strong counterplay." This is not true as White is busted after 14.Kf2!!
  
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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #21 - 06/06/09 at 21:20:58
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Gilmour wrote on 06/06/09 at 20:51:23:
Hello everybody,

it´s a mystery to me that a class player like Kogan recommends Qd8 in combination with Bf5.
You don´t have the flexibilty of the Qd6-variation; you don´t even have the pin of the Nc3 as in the Qa5-variation (whatever that counts ?!) - the only thing you get is loosing time with the queen-manoever to go "home" in the end and as a "plus" you play the bishop outside to allow white to hunt it and develop thereby the white forces.
One must always be careful to run something down, which is recommended by a grandmaster. But in this case that´s
complete madness to me. A ready made recipe not to reach move twenty.

In my view the only possibility to play the Qd8-scandinavian is in combination with g6, leaving the light-squared bishop at least for a while at home .
Either until one can pin a knight on f3 or neutralize white´s light squared bishop via b6/Ba6.

Should white castle queenside black can play a manoever with c6, Be6; Qa5 and Nd5
should white castle kingside black can play c6/b6/Ba6 to reduce white´s attacking potential
and should white adopt a policy of wait and see, may be black can take time to play a Nh6-Nf5, leaving out c7-c6 to keep the possibility to play Nc6 in order to attack white´s d4-pawn.

What black in my view also always should consider is to play a fast Nf6-d5 to exchange whites knight on c3 to reduce white´s control over e4 and d5; and in case white has castled long to remove a defender of the white king.

Anyone interested in this line should check the games of Chelushkina Irina.

Greetings

Gilmour


Fisher many moons ago put 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qd8 4. d4 g6 to death with 5. Bf4!
  

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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #20 - 06/06/09 at 20:51:23
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Hello everybody,

it´s a mystery to me that a class player like Kogan recommends Qd8 in combination with Bf5.
You don´t have the flexibilty of the Qd6-variation; you don´t even have the pin of the Nc3 as in the Qa5-variation (whatever that counts ?!) - the only thing you get is loosing time with the queen-manoever to go "home" in the end and as a "plus" you play the bishop outside to allow white to hunt it and develop thereby the white forces.
One must always be careful to run something down, which is recommended by a grandmaster. But in this case that´s
complete madness to me. A ready made recipe not to reach move twenty.

In my view the only possibility to play the Qd8-scandinavian is in combination with g6, leaving the light-squared bishop at least for a while at home .
Either until one can pin a knight on f3 or neutralize white´s light squared bishop via b6/Ba6.

Should white castle queenside black can play a manoever with c6, Be6; Qa5 and Nd5
should white castle kingside black can play c6/b6/Ba6 to reduce white´s attacking potential
and should white adopt a policy of wait and see, may be black can take time to play a Nh6-Nf5, leaving out c7-c6 to keep the possibility to play Nc6 in order to attack white´s d4-pawn.

What black in my view also always should consider is to play a fast Nf6-d5 to exchange whites knight on c3 to reduce white´s control over e4 and d5; and in case white has castled long to remove a defender of the white king.

Anyone interested in this line should check the games of Chelushkina Irina.

Greetings

Gilmour
  
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