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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8 (Read 29963 times)
BPaulsen
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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #19 - 06/06/09 at 20:41:26
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Ah, I missed Qc2.

Oh well, the line is still dead for black. It's a good thing I don't play it, anyway.  Grin
  

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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #18 - 06/06/09 at 19:39:23
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nonono Smiley , i wrote this without chessboard, i mean 19.Bb2 Qxa2 20.Ra1 Qxa1 21.Bxa1 etc Smiley
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #17 - 06/06/09 at 14:36:08
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g3g6 wrote on 06/06/09 at 14:18:16:
Hi Toppy,
15..Qd4 was found by engine (in 2006) when we analyse this line here.
16.Kg2 Bd3 17.cd3 Qa1 18.Qc2 Nd7 19.Bb2 Qa1 20.Ba1 Ne5 21.Be5 0-0 22.Bd4 - there are possible only 2 results - 1-0 or 1/2, but i clearly preffer first one..


I completely agree, provided that 19...Qa1 was meant to be  19...Qxh1+ and 20.Ba1 to be 20.Kxh1.  Wink

Hopefully that satisfies Paulsen's query. 

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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #16 - 06/06/09 at 14:18:16
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Hi Toppy,
15..Qd4 was found by engine (in 2006) when we analyse this line here.
16.Kg2 Bd3 17.cd3 Qa1 18.Qc2 Nd7 19.Bb2 Qa1 20.Ba1 Ne5 21.Be5 0-0 22.Bd4 - there are possible only 2 results - 1-0 or 1/2, but i clearly preffer first one..
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...
Reply #15 - 06/06/09 at 13:30:26
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BPaulsen wrote on 06/05/09 at 07:42:00:
TopNotch wrote on 08/11/06 at 00:05:55:
g3g6 wrote on 08/10/06 at 08:06:11:
Are you sure about 12.Qe2?, probably based on Kotronias-Candela Perez Linares 2003. I dont know easy truth about interesting 12...Bxc3 13.bxc3 Qa5 14.h5 Qxc3 15.Kf2!? as was played Van Wissen-Del Rio Angelis Presov 2001, 15...Bxc2 as only move,  but after "normal" moves 14.Rb1 or similliar black is probably less or more playable.


Yes Van Wissen - Del Rio Angelis is a very important game, and I dont think that Del Rio repeated 3...Qd8 again after that defeat. And yes  16. Qb5+ is very strong, maybe winning by force.

Lets hope that many players take up Kogan's S.O.S, which in this case would have the traditional meaning.  Wink

Topster  Smiley


Extremely old thread, but what if 15...Qxd4+ instead of the "only move" 15...Bxc2?. I'm entertaining 16. Kg2 (best, right?) Bd3 right now. Maybe my tactical abilities are too weak to see the refutation, which is entirely possible.

I don't have an engine available, so perhaps I'm just missing something obvious.


Stll no engine?

Tops Smiley

  

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BPaulsen
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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #14 - 06/06/09 at 05:27:50
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TopNotch wrote on 06/05/09 at 23:27:24:
TN wrote on 06/05/09 at 22:00:00:
@BPaulsen

15...Qd4 looks like an improvement over 15...Bc2 - neither myself nor Fritz could find anything better than 16.Qe3 Qe3 17.Be3 f6 when Black has no problems.
However, the 6...Bf5 variation still seems to be too dangerous for Black because of 12.h5 instead of 12.Qe2.

In my opinion, 6...b5 is stronger, playing in similar fashion to a Meran with 7.Bb3 e6, although to be honest I have no doubt that White has a small edge here as well. 7.Bd3!? is rare but also seems like a solid += for White.


You must be using Fritz 2 or earlier  Wink

Tops Smiley


What's the refutation to 15...Qxd4+?
« Last Edit: 06/06/09 at 07:08:59 by BPaulsen »  

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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #13 - 06/06/09 at 05:27:01
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TN wrote on 06/05/09 at 22:00:00:
@BPaulsen

15...Qd4 looks like an improvement over 15...Bc2 - neither myself nor Fritz could find anything better than 16.Qe3 Qe3 17.Be3 f6 when Black has no problems.

However, the 6...Bf5 variation still seems to be too dangerous for Black because of 12.h5 instead of 12.Qe2.

In my opinion, 6...b5 is stronger, playing in similar fashion to a Meran with 7.Bb3 e6, although to be honest I have no doubt that White has a small edge here as well. 7.Bd3!? is rare but also seems like a solid += for White.


Well, at least black isn't flat-out dead after 12. Qe2 now, of course I could still be missing something.

12. h5 of course is still a problem, but I'm not sure what the critical line is for white. The 12...f6 13. Nxg6 variation looks unclear to me, and 13. hxg6 fxe5 gxh7 is has similarities to the Winawer Poison Pawn (white, of course, should have a slight edge, with black only having minimal compensation).

I spent some time looking at 6...b5, if white responds with 7. Bd3 then I like 7...g6 where I think the positions are unclear. 7. Bb3, on the other hand, is a real problem with 0-0/Re1/Ne5/Nxf7 themes being a constant problem. White should keep a slight edge there for sure.
« Last Edit: 06/06/09 at 07:09:29 by BPaulsen »  

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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #12 - 06/05/09 at 23:27:24
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TN wrote on 06/05/09 at 22:00:00:
@BPaulsen

15...Qd4 looks like an improvement over 15...Bc2 - neither myself nor Fritz could find anything better than 16.Qe3 Qe3 17.Be3 f6 when Black has no problems.
However, the 6...Bf5 variation still seems to be too dangerous for Black because of 12.h5 instead of 12.Qe2.

In my opinion, 6...b5 is stronger, playing in similar fashion to a Meran with 7.Bb3 e6, although to be honest I have no doubt that White has a small edge here as well. 7.Bd3!? is rare but also seems like a solid += for White.


You must be using Fritz 2 or earlier  Wink

Tops Smiley
  

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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #11 - 06/05/09 at 22:00:00
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@BPaulsen

15...Qd4 looks like an improvement over 15...Bc2 - neither myself nor Fritz could find anything better than 16.Qe3 Qe3 17.Be3 f6 when Black has no problems.

However, the 6...Bf5 variation still seems to be too dangerous for Black because of 12.h5 instead of 12.Qe2.

In my opinion, 6...b5 is stronger, playing in similar fashion to a Meran with 7.Bb3 e6, although to be honest I have no doubt that White has a small edge here as well. 7.Bd3!? is rare but also seems like a solid += for White.
  

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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...
Reply #10 - 06/05/09 at 07:42:00
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TopNotch wrote on 08/11/06 at 00:05:55:
g3g6 wrote on 08/10/06 at 08:06:11:
Are you sure about 12.Qe2?, probably based on Kotronias-Candela Perez Linares 2003. I dont know easy truth about interesting 12...Bxc3 13.bxc3 Qa5 14.h5 Qxc3 15.Kf2!? as was played Van Wissen-Del Rio Angelis Presov 2001, 15...Bxc2 as only move,  but after "normal" moves 14.Rb1 or similliar black is probably less or more playable.


Yes Van Wissen - Del Rio Angelis is a very important game, and I dont think that Del Rio repeated 3...Qd8 again after that defeat. And yes  16. Qb5+ is very strong, maybe winning by force.

Lets hope that many players take up Kogan's S.O.S, which in this case would have the traditional meaning.  Wink

Topster  Smiley


Extremely old thread, but what if 15...Qxd4+ instead of the "only move" 15...Bxc2?. I'm entertaining 16. Kg2 (best, right?) Bd3 right now. Maybe my tactical abilities are too weak to see the refutation, which is entirely possible.

I don't have an engine available, so perhaps I'm just missing something obvious.
  

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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...
Reply #9 - 08/11/06 at 00:05:55
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g3g6 wrote on 08/10/06 at 08:06:11:
Are you sure about 12.Qe2?, probably based on Kotronias-Candela Perez Linares 2003. I dont know easy truth about interesting 12...Bxc3 13.bxc3 Qa5 14.h5 Qxc3 15.Kf2!? as was played Van Wissen-Del Rio Angelis Presov 2001, 15...Bxc2 as only move,  but after "normal" moves 14.Rb1 or similliar black is probably less or more playable.


Yes Van Wissen - Del Rio Angelis is a very important game, and I dont think that Del Rio repeated 3...Qd8 again after that defeat. And yes  16. Qb5+ is very strong, maybe winning by force.

Lets hope that many players take up Kogan's S.O.S, which in this case would have the traditional meaning.  Wink

Topster  Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #8 - 08/10/06 at 09:08:13
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after 15..Bxc2 probably 16.Qb5 is very strong...
  
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Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #7 - 08/10/06 at 08:06:11
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Are you sure about 12.Qe2?, probably based on Kotronias-Candela Perez Linares 2003. I dont know easy truth about interesting 12...Bxc3 13.bxc3 Qa5 14.h5 Qxc3 15.Kf2!? as was played Van Wissen-Del Rio Angelis Presov 2001, 15...Bxc2 as only move,  but after "normal" moves 14.Rb1 or similliar black is probably less or more playable.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...
Reply #6 - 08/10/06 at 01:24:00
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g3g6 wrote on 08/09/06 at 06:03:56:
Good point, TopNotch. Kogan says, that 9...Bb4 is bad for 10.f3 (+/- Kogan), but 10...Nd5 11.Bxd5 cxd5 12.h5 is maybe not to bad for black (closely to +/= than to +/-). On opposite Kogan offer 9..Nbd7!, but now 10.f3! (g3g6 mark Wink ) 10...Nxe5 11.dxe5 is probably bad for black - +/-


Very confusing indeed, and I aggree with your assesments. However after 9...Bb4 10.f3 Nd5 11.Bxd5 cxd5 12.Qe2! Black is close to if not completely lost.

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Secrets of opening surprises/Scandinavian 3...Qd8
Reply #5 - 08/09/06 at 06:03:56
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Good point, TopNotch. Kogan says, that 9...Bb4 is bad for 10.f3 (+/- Kogan), but 10...Nd5 11.Bxd5 cxd5 12.h5 is maybe not to bad for black (closely to +/= than to +/-). On opposite Kogan offer 9..Nbd7!, but now 10.f3! (g3g6 mark Wink ) 10...Nxe5 11.dxe5 is probably bad for black - +/-
  
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