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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd (Read 215787 times)
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #16 - 07/12/06 at 17:30:28
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/12/06 at 16:42:56:
Willempie,

(From memory)

7...Qb6 was popular in the late 80s and early 90s.  The main line went something like this:  8.Na4 Qa5+ 9.c3 cd4 10.b4 Nb4 11.cb4 Bb4+ and Karpov argued that the side which had the better grasp of the ideas behind the opening would win.  It turns out though that Ivanchuk and Anand (I think) proved that the piece was indeed better than the three pawns.  

A side note on this variation:  I came up with an important novelty for Black around move 13, but then some super GM played it within a month of my discovery.  He got the credit of course, but it only delayed the inevitable conclusion that White's better.


I posted some analysis on the piece sac a few months ago.  See http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1142605534 for some rather unfinished thoughts.  My sense at the time was that Black actually had some decent chances, though very careful preparation was necessary.  Ideal for correspondence players.  I could be wrong, but I found myself thinking that the three pawns looked pretty good.  I didn't grind anything down to a win, but felt that Black had decent drawing chances.  It would be great to really tear into this.

Of course, I thought 9 ... c4 was the more critical line, when 10 b4 Nxb4 11 cxb4 Bxb4 12 Kf2 was White's best option--12 Bd2 b5 was just plain ugly for White...
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #15 - 07/12/06 at 17:21:53
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986,

Thanks for the suggestion and the games!  I hadn't considered Be7 to be threatening before.  I'll have to study those games played by one of my favorite players!
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #14 - 07/12/06 at 17:20:21
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Keano,

You may be right, but for some reason I thought Yusupov was on the White side.  I'd have to look it up.  It'd be a shame if it was the computers and not some GM who buried my line. Sad
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #13 - 07/12/06 at 17:19:32
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There's also the little used ...Be7 instead of Qb6, cxd4 and a6. Kramnik lost a game against Moro in 2003(a blindfold game). The critical game in this line should be his loss aginst Ivantschuk. Perhaps 8.dxc5 is the best move.

Smiley
Tom


Kramnik,V (2807) - Morozevich,A (2678) [C11]
Amber-blind 12th Monte Carlo (8), 23.03.2003

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 Be7 8.dxc5 0-0 9.Qd2 Nxc5 10.a3 b6 11.Bb5 Bb7 12.0-0 Rc8 13.Rad1 Qc7 14.Qe1 Rfd8 15.Bxc6 Bxc6 16.Nd4 g6 17.Bf2 Bf8 18.Bh4 Re8 19.Kh1 a6 20.Bf6 Nd7 21.Qh4 Nxf6 22.exf6 Qd8 23.f5 exf5 24.Nxf5 Re6 25.Nd4 Rd6 26.Qf4 b5 27.Rde1 Bb7 28.Re3 Qb6 29.Nce2 a5 30.Ng3 b4 31.axb4 axb4 32.Nh5 Qd8 33.Nf5 d4 34.Re7 Rb6 35.Rfe1 Qd5 36.R1e2 Qxf5 37.Qxf5 gxf5 0-1


Ivanchuk,V (2730) - Morozevich,A (2610) [C11]
Donner mem Amsterdam (10), 28.08.1996

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 Be7 8.dxc5 Nxc5 9.Be2 0-0 10.0-0 Bd7 11.a3 Be8 12.Qe1 Rc8 13.Rd1 Qc7 14.b4 Nd7 15.Nb5 Qb8 16.Bd3 f6 17.Qh4 f5 18.Qh3 Nb6 19.Bxb6 axb6 20.g4 g6 21.gxf5 exf5 22.Rf2 Nd8 23.Nbd4 Kh8 24.Rg2 Rc3 25.Nh4 Nc6 26.Ne6 Rg8 27.Nxf5 Qc8 28.Rg3 h5 29.Nh6 Rg7 30.Bf5 Rxg3+ 31.Qxg3 Qb8 32.Rxd5 Rh7 33.Bxg6 Rxh6 34.Bf7 1-0

Shaposhnikov,E (2380) - Morozevich,A (2590) [C11]
RUS-Cup01 Chigorin mem St Petersburg (1), 01.11.1997

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 Be7 8.dxc5 0-0 9.Qd2 Nxc5 10.Be2 b6 11.0-0 Ba6 12.Nd4 Qd7 13.Bxa6 Nxa6 14.Nxc6 Qxc6 15.f5 exf5 16.Nxd5 Bc5 17.Rad1 Rad8 18.c4 Bxe3+ 19.Qxe3 Qxc4 20.Ne7+ Kh8 21.Nxf5 Rxd1 22.Rxd1 Nc5 23.Rf1 Nd7 24.Qa3 g6 25.Ne3 Qe4 26.Kh1 Nc5 27.Qc3 Kg8 28.h3 Qd3 29.Qe1 h5 30.Rf3 Qe4 31.Qg3 Nd7 32.Rf5 Kh7 33.Qg5 Qc6 34.Rf4 Qe6 35.Re4 f6 36.Qg3 f5 37.Ra4 a5 38.Rd4 Nxe5 39.Nd5 Rf7 40.Qe3 Rd7 41.Nf4 Qf6 42.Rxd7+ Nxd7 43.Qe8 Nc5 44.Nd5 Qxb2 45.Qe7+ Qg7 46.Nf6+ Kh6 47.Qd6 Ne4 48.Nxe4 fxe4 49.Qf4+ g5 50.Qxe4 Qf6 51.Kg1 Qd6 52.a4 h4 53.Qe8 Kg7 54.Qe4 Qc5+ 55.Kh2 Kf6 56.Qg4 b5 57.Qf3+ Ke6 58.Qg4+ Qf5 59.Qh5 bxa4 60.Qe8+ Kd6 61.Qd8+ Kc6 62.Qa8+ Kb5 63.Qe8+ Kb4 64.Qe1+ Kc4 65.Qc1+ Kb5 66.Qb2+ Kc6 67.Qc3+ Qc5 68.Qf3+ Kb6 69.Qf6+ Kb7 70.Qf3+ Kb8 71.g3 hxg3+ 72.Kxg3 Qg1+ 0-1

  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #12 - 07/12/06 at 17:13:11
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I think that was Yusupov, but in fairness I dont think theres any point trying to rescue the piece sac as the computers seem to have buried it.

My vote would be for either the ...a6,...b5 line which is rich and interesting, or else for the main line with ...cxd4,...Bc5, ..0-0,...a6 etc.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #11 - 07/12/06 at 16:47:19
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Btw: in the line I just quoted, the critical position occurred after 12.Bd2 Bd2+ 13.Nd2.  The obvious 13...b5 was known to be bad, so Black usually played 13...b6.  My novelty was to play an immediate 13...g5!?  I don't remember who played it in a big game, but I think it was one of the Candidates Matches at the time.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #10 - 07/12/06 at 16:42:56
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Willempie,

(From memory)

7...Qb6 was popular in the late 80s and early 90s.  The main line went something like this:  8.Na4 Qa5+ 9.c3 cd4 10.b4 Nb4 11.cb4 Bb4+ and Karpov argued that the side which had the better grasp of the ideas behind the opening would win.  It turns out though that Ivanchuk and Anand (I think) proved that the piece was indeed better than the three pawns. 

A side note on this variation:  I came up with an important novelty for Black around move 13, but then some super GM played it within a month of my discovery.  He got the credit of course, but it only delayed the inevitable conclusion that White's better.
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #9 - 07/12/06 at 15:43:22
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Willempie wrote on 07/12/06 at 15:09:09:
Ah nice, another advance game. Unfortunately white already played Be3 and not Nce2, so I am a bit on terra incongnita as I play the line with f4 and Nce2 with white.

I've also played around with 7.Nce2 a bit (especially after a string of losses on ICC a while back when I was trying to learn the 7.Be3 lines!).  The game starts looking like (or actually is, I guess) a 5.f4 Closed Tarrasch.  An interesting and useful transposition which avoids some of Black's options (i.e., 3...c5) against the 3.Nd2 move order.
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #8 - 07/12/06 at 15:09:09
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Ah nice, another advance game. Unfortunately white already played Be3 and not Nce2, so I am a bit on terra incongnita as I play the line with f4 and Nce2 with white.
7...a6 may be very interesting if you compare it with the CK I play. There may be some nice parallels and differences.
7..cxd4 would be my instinctive reaction as I am unsure on 7... Qb6 8.Na4. I have no Fritz or printed references available here so I am just looking with a pocket set, which means I probably missed some very basic tactic for black here Grin
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #7 - 07/12/06 at 14:59:11
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I've been thinking about just that, alumbrado!  I'll delay my official response so that Ostap doesn't go into blitz mode against me!

And yeah, we francophiles just love to remove all the pieces except our bad light squared Bishop! Wink
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #6 - 07/12/06 at 14:56:19
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alumbrado wrote on 07/12/06 at 14:50:01:
I know I don't have a vote as such but insofar as I do, I'd go for 7...cxd4 and trying to chop everything off.  That's what you Frenchies like to do isn't it? Smiley

Sounds like the dreaded Vacuum Cleaner Variation!  Shocked

(please, no... anything but this...  Smiley)
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #5 - 07/12/06 at 14:50:01
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I know I don't have a vote as such but insofar as I do, I'd go for 7...cxd4 and trying to chop everything off.  That's what you Frenchies like to do isn't it? Smiley
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #4 - 07/12/06 at 14:46:28
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/12/06 at 14:30:43:
Ostap,

I accept your conditional moves, and look forward to our first diagram!

The moves so far are: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3.

Wow, that was a quick reply!

Quote:
I'll think about my move for a little while and hopefully we'll start getting people to join in the discussion of our game.

By all means.

The reply came so quickly I was worried that I might have inadvertantly agreed to a blitz game!  Wink

...and here's our first diagram!

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r1bqkb1r/pp1n1ppp/2n1p3/2...

We're at an interesting crossroad.  I recall MNb expressing an interest in 7...a6 here.  As far as I know 7...cxd4 and 7...Qb6 are the main alternatives.
  

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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #3 - 07/12/06 at 14:36:43
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By the way,

OstapBender wrote on 07/12/06 at 14:10:48:
So, I will lead the charge with 5.f4 (trumpet flourish!)
...
Cheers,
Ostap    Smiley

 
Those colors you chose look suspiciously like those being waved by France's neighbors to the southeast.  Angry  

Allez les bleus!
« Last Edit: 05/01/14 at 02:31:07 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #2 - 07/12/06 at 14:30:43
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Ostap,

I accept your conditional moves, and look forward to our first diagram!

The moves so far are: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3

I'll think about my move for a little while and hopefully we'll start getting people to join in the discussion of our game.
  
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