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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd (Read 283517 times)
MWP
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Re: C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #586 - 04/02/15 at 12:15:59
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brabo wrote on 04/02/15 at 08:32:05:
MWP wrote on 04/02/15 at 07:59:58:
Well, I am a practical player, and know that such pawn sacrifyses are scary to play over the board even for GM.
Also in the 15...Rc8 black has an interesting novelty 18...h6!?, which solves their problems with defending g5 square.

If we start to talk about practical play then anything can work as long the opponent didn't study it in detail. Last Sunday an FM played a line of 1887 (http://chesstempo.com/gamedb/game/1902865/ply/6)  to surprise me which worked as I was struggling from the opening to draw.

So I am not interested in the practical value of an opening but what is the theoretical status.

Besides I want to inform you that the 2 correspondence games won by white, were exactly in the line with 15... Rc8 and the interesting novelty 18...h6 !!!! I investigated this a bit with my engines and didn't find a way to hold blacks position.

It is pure coincidence that I know this stuff as a month ago I prepared myself heavily for the Russian grandmaster Vyashelav Ikonnikov which you by the way mention in your analysis. However he smelled a rat and played something very different for the first time in his career. It shows of course also how much respect/ fear people have for my preparations. His strategy paid off as I got slightly worse out of the opening and lost after a long enervating battle: http://www.skdeurne.be/Interclub/ICRonde9.php

Well, I've downloaded the Correspondence DB, and saw this game:

Well, It seems that here white has a forced win.
  
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Re: C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #585 - 04/02/15 at 09:18:51
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I'm not if anyone playing that line as black can call themselves fully practical Wink It does look thoroughly absurd to me, but obviously quite good defensive resources.

Not that I can really talk - far from adverse sticking my head into lions mouth at times myself!
  
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Re: C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #584 - 04/02/15 at 08:32:05
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MWP wrote on 04/02/15 at 07:59:58:
Well, I am a practical player, and know that such pawn sacrifyses are scary to play over the board even for GM.
Also in the 15...Rc8 black has an interesting novelty 18...h6!?, which solves their problems with defending g5 square.

If we start to talk about practical play then anything can work as long the opponent didn't study it in detail. Last Sunday an FM played a line of 1887 (http://chesstempo.com/gamedb/game/1902865/ply/6) ; to surprise me which worked as I was struggling from the opening to draw.

So I am not interested in the practical value of an opening but what is the theoretical status.

Besides I want to inform you that the 2 correspondence games won by white, were exactly in the line with 15... Rc8 and the interesting novelty 18...h6 !!!! I investigated this a bit with my engines and didn't find a way to hold blacks position.

It is pure coincidence that I know this stuff as a month ago I prepared myself heavily for the Russian grandmaster Vyashelav Ikonnikov which you by the way mention in your analysis. However he smelled a rat and played something very different for the first time in his career. It shows of course also how much respect/ fear people have for my preparations. His strategy paid off as I got slightly worse out of the opening and lost after a long enervating battle: http://www.skdeurne.be/Interclub/ICRonde9.php
  
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Re: C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #583 - 04/02/15 at 07:59:58
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brabo wrote on 04/01/15 at 21:11:19:
MWP wrote on 04/01/15 at 19:30:10:
BTW, 18...Ba4 is not the only possible continuation for black. Also interesting is 18...Bd4 19. Nd4 Rc4

20. f5 Qc5 21.c3 exf5 22.e6 is already losing for black. Better is 20....exf5 but again black will suffer. Just one idea is 21.e6 fxe6 22.Qf4.
I have some serious doubts about this line as 2 recent (ICCF) correspondence games with 18.Ne2 were won for white although the black players were rated above 2400 !


Well, I am a practical player, and know that such pawn sacrifyses are scary to play over the board even for GM. Here is an example from my practice.

As you can see, white could sacrifise the pawn on move 24, and it probably just wins.
Also in the 15...Rc8 black has an interesting novelty 18...h6!?, which solves their problems with defending g5 square.
  
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Re: C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #582 - 04/01/15 at 21:11:19
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MWP wrote on 04/01/15 at 19:30:10:
BTW, 18...Ba4 is not the only possible continuation for black. Also interesting is 18...Bd4 19. Nd4 Rc4

20. f5 Qc5 21.c3 exf5 22.e6 is already losing for black. Better is 20....exf5 but again black will suffer. Just one idea is 21.e6 fxe6 22.Qf4.
I have some serious doubts about this line as 2 recent (ICCF) correspondence games with 18.Ne2 were won for white although the black players were rated above 2400 !
  
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Re: C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #581 - 04/01/15 at 19:30:10
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brabo wrote on 04/01/15 at 19:05:17:
Did you have a look at 24.Qh5+ Kg8 25.Qg4 Kf7 26.Rb6 Bd7 27.c3? My engines don't show an easy way to draw for black.

Well, nope, I only analyzed 24. h3!?, but there was nothing special for white.
BTW, 18...Ba4 is not the only possible continuation for black. Also interesting is 18...Bd4 19. Nd4 Rc4
« Last Edit: 04/02/15 at 00:26:31 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Re: C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #580 - 04/01/15 at 19:05:17
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MWP wrote on 04/01/15 at 11:33:46:
Actually I analyzed it for white on my Youtube channel (in russian).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlli2Q7rTdo
But the only white's move, after which they don't get worse position, is 19. Ne2!
However I have found nothing special for white in the line:

So I think that 15...Rc8 nowadays is more solid move than 15...Qh4+

Did you have a look at 24.Qh5+ Kg8 25.Qg4 Kf7 26.Rb6 Bd7 27.c3? My engines don't show an easy way to draw for black.
  
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Re: C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #579 - 04/01/15 at 11:33:46
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Last week I won the game in the line that is not mentioned in the Negi's book.

Actually I analyzed it for white on my Youtube channel (in russian).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlli2Q7rTdo
But the only white's move, after which they don't get worse position, is 19. Ne2!
However I have found nothing special for white in the line:

So I think that 15...Rc8 nowadays is more solid move than 15...Qh4+
  
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Re: C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #578 - 09/16/14 at 11:14:50
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I don't want to give away all of Negi's analysis (well, I only have a summary of it on me  so I can't!) but it's better to recapture on f2 with the rook, so you can follow up with Re1 and f5 in many cases. That's probably the setup ViktorN has in mind when he mentions the 'fierce attack'.
  
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Re: C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #577 - 09/15/14 at 09:55:18
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Almost equal endgame no? Just play something subtly different at some stage and keep grinding. Or start grinding from the final position of that game.

You can't possibly exhaust that sort of thing with one game, or even an awful lot of analysis Smiley

You won't beat near equal strength players too often from it though. More pick off weaker ones and safely draw with the equal/midly stronger ones.
  
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Re: C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #576 - 09/14/14 at 16:40:04
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Re: C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #575 - 09/12/14 at 17:18:10
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chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 06/20/14 at 05:59:14:
This is the line made by one of my friend for black..There are lots of ways for white to improve but this line might be useful for black players....I suggest 9 dxc5 is better but after a lot of analysis this line goes equal


What is your suggested line against Karjakins 9. dxc5 Bxc5 10. Bd3 Qb6 11. Bf2!?. There are loads of "almost equal" endgames, but that is exactly what white players want. Either a good french endgame or a fierce attack.
  
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Re: C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #574 - 06/20/14 at 05:59:14
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This is the line made by one of my friend for black..There are lots of ways for white to improve but this line might be useful for black players....I suggest 9 dxc5 is better but after a lot of analysis this line goes equal
  
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Re: C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #573 - 04/17/14 at 01:16:49
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Yeah, they were created using an earlier format. I don't know if there is a way to recreate the diagrams without going in and doing a complete re-edit.
  
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Re: C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #572 - 04/16/14 at 12:20:59
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Something has happened to the diagrams earlier in the thread?
  
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