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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Understanding the white side of the KID?! (Read 16184 times)
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Re: Understanding the white side of the KID?!
Reply #31 - 07/23/07 at 10:09:42
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The Dane Bjarke Sahl used to have the name Bjarke Kristensen. Now living in Norway..
  
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Bibs
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Re: Understanding the white side of the KID?!
Reply #30 - 07/23/07 at 10:00:41
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Pessoa,

Thankyou very much for that.
Sounds like this may be a suitable intro guide to the KID,  but above the old Bellin/Ponzetto text.
The Gufeld book (yes, really!) also a useful guide. More concrete for those seeking more analysis and perhaps for  readers of a higher level may like to look at Golubev, and perhaps use Gallagher as a repertoire base.

thanks very much again, will try to dig out on the net,

Bibs


  
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Re: Understanding the white side of the KID?!
Reply #29 - 07/23/07 at 10:00:32
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Bonsai wrote on 07/17/06 at 22:11:40:
Oh, and something I'd like to add, I feel that often all those pretty good opening books that cover the KID for white tend to be very heavy on variations (nothing wrong with that in principle, but...) and by far too light on explanations. A typical example is "Opening for White according to Kramnik" and also I feel "Play 1.d4!" by Palliser. A lot of good variations, but not enough explanations to get a real understanding for the positions. Not that I am really criticising the authors, it's quite possibly not feasible when doing a repertoire book, maybe someone with a real understanding of the white position in e.g. the classicalm main lines and who is willing to spill the beans should write a "Beating the KID" book (other than the Vaisser one). Unless I am overlooking some book I suspect that's a big gap in the market.


In his book "The Chess Player's Battle Manual" (Batsford 1998), Nigel Davies has an interesting chapter on the King's Indian, with the help of which he hopes to convince the reader "that the best way to learn an opening is to understand the structures to which it leads. Rather than trying to memorise variations, it is better to look at some classic games in which this type of position was played."

He begins by telling how, as a teenager, he was impressed by the following two Bronstein games:

Zita,Frantisek - Bronstein,David I [E68]
Moscow-Prague Moscow (6), 1946
1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 Nbd7 5.g3 g6 6.Bg2 Bg7 7.0–0 0–0 8.b3 Re8 9.Bb2 c6 10.e4 exd4 11.Nxd4 Qb6 12.Qd2 Nc5 13.Rfe1 a5 14.Rab1 a4 15.Ba1 axb3 16.axb3 Ng4 17.h3 Rxa1 18.Rxa1 Nxf2 19.Re3 Nxh3+ 20.Kh2 Nf2 21.Rf3 Ncxe4 22.Qf4 Ng4+ 23.Kh1 f5 24.Nxe4 Rxe4 25.Qxd6 Rxd4 26.Qb8 Rd8 27.Ra8 Be5 28.Qa7 Qb4 29.Qa2 Qf8 30.Bh3 Qh6
0–1

Reshevsky,Samuel Herman - Bronstein,David I [E69]
Candidates Tournament Zuerich (13), 22.09.1953
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 0–0 5.Nc3 d6 6.Nf3 Nbd7 7.0–0 e5 8.e4 Re8 9.h3 exd4 10.Nxd4 Nc5 11.Re1 a5 12.Qc2 c6 13.Be3 Nfd7 14.Rad1 a4 15.Nde2 Qa5 16.Bf1 Ne5 17.Nd4 a3 18.f4 Ned7 19.b3 Na6 20.Bf2 Ndc5 21.Re3 Nb4 22.Qe2 Bd7 23.e5 dxe5 24.fxe5 Rad8 25.g4 Ne6 26.Bh4 Nxd4 27.Rxd4 Qc5 28.Rde4 Bh6 29.Kh1 Be6 30.g5 Bg7 31.Rf4 Bf5 32.Ne4 Bxe4+ 33.Rfxe4 Na6 34.e6 fxe6 35.Rxe6 Rf8 36.Re7 Bd4 37.R3e6 Qf5 38.Re8 Nc5 39.Rxd8 Nxe6 40.Rxf8+ Kxf8 41.Bg3 Qxg5 42.Qxe6 Qxg3 43.Qc8+ Ke7 44.Qg4 Qc3 45.Kg2 Qb2+ 46.Qe2+ Kd6 47.Kf3 Bc5 48.Ke4 Qd4+ 49.Kf3 Qf6+ 50.Kg2 Kc7 51.Qf3 Qb2+ 52.Qe2 Qd4 53.Kf3 h5 54.Kg2 g5 55.Kg3 Qf4+ 56.Kg2 g4 57.hxg4 hxg4 58.Kh1 Kb6 59.Kg2 Kc7 60.Kh1 Bd6 61.Kg1 Kb6 62.Qg2 Bc5+ 63.Kh1 Qh6+ 64.Qh2 Qe3 65.b4 Bd4
0–1

Davies then says:

"I started to appreciate this King's Indian position and found myself adopting King's Indian formations with White and Black without worrying about things like weak d-pawns. What interested me was the chance of active counterplay.

As my level of opposition improved, however, I found that it wasn't actually much fun to have this weak d-pawn. The problem was that often White didn't attack the pawn immediately but instead first set out to eliminate Black's counterplay. If this was accomplished, the d-pawn started to become weak almost of its own accord.

Once my youthful enthusiasm for this line was on the wane, I began to wonder if it might not in fact be better to be White in these positions. My conversion to the White side took place during a tournament in Lyons in 1990 when I watched King's Indian addict Branko Damljanovic playing White in this type of position and looking very pleased with himself. I asked him what he was so happy about and he told me: 'I used to play Black in this position, now I know better.'

For lessons in how to play White against this line, it is difficult to do better than to examine the following two games of the Hungarian Grandmaster, Lajos Portisch. They are not as spectacular as Bronstein's win over Zita but are nonetheless elegant and deeply impressive. Portisch doesn't try to do anything dramatic in the early stages; he just stets out to neutralise the activity of Black's pieces."


Davies then annotates the following two games:

Portisch,Lajos - Szabo,Lajos [E69]
HUN-ch 16th playoff Budapest (2), 1961
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 0–0 5.Nf3 d6 6.Nc3 Nbd7 7.0–0 e5 8.e4 c6 9.Re1 Re8 10.h3 a5 11.Be3 exd4 12.Nxd4 Nc5 13.Qc2 a4 14.Rad1 Qa5 15.Bf4 Bf8 16.Rb1 Ne6 17.Be3 Bg7 18.Nde2 Qb4 19.b3 axb3 20.axb3 Nd7 21.Red1 Ndc5 22.Bd2 Qb6 23.b4 Nd7 24.Be3 Qc7 25.Rd2 Ne5 26.Qb3 f5 27.Rbd1 Bf8 28.exf5 gxf5 29.f4 Ng6 30.Bf2 Qf7 31.Na4 Nc7 32.Nb6 Be6 33.Nd4 Rad8 34.Qc2 Bg7 35.Nxe6 Rxe6 36.b5 Ne7 37.Na4 cxb5 38.Nc5 bxc4 39.Nxb7 Rb8 40.Nxd6 Qf6 41.Qxc4 Qc3 42.Qxc3 Bxc3 43.Rc2 Ba5 44.Nb7
1–0

Portisch,Lajos - Gligoric,Svetozar [E69]
HUN-YUG Budapest (2.1), 1964
1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 0–0 5.0–0 d6 6.Nc3 e5 7.d4 Nbd7 8.e4 c6 9.h3 Qb6 10.Re1 exd4 11.Nxd4 Ng4 12.Nce2 Nge5 13.b3 Nc5 14.Be3 a5 15.Rb1 Re8 16.Nc3 Qd8 17.Re2 Qe7 18.f4 Ned7 19.Bf2 Nf8 20.Qd2 Bd7 21.Rbe1 Rad8 22.Nf3 Bc8 23.Kh2 Nfd7 24.Bd4 Nf6 25.Qc2 Qf8 26.Bxc5 dxc5 27.e5 Bf5 28.Qc1 Nd7 29.Nh4 Be6 30.Ne4 Nb8 31.f5 gxf5 32.Nf6+ Kh8 33.Nxe8 Rxe8 34.Qc2 f4 35.gxf4 Qe7 36.Nf5 Bxf5 37.Qxf5 Nd7 38.e6
1–0

"As I developed a taste for such play rather than the spectacular beauty of Zita-Bronstein, I felt myself being transformed. The carefree boy who wanted to make long-diagonal combinations was becoming a cynical GM who likes to neutralise his opponents' counterplay and then watch them squirm.

These days I prefer to play these positions as White and look forward to playing promising young players who adopt this variation. My main ideal in the early stages is just to stop Black's counterplay; there will be time enough to inch forward later in the game."


Davies then annotates these games:

Davies,Nigel R (2510) - Tonning,Erik [E69]
Peer Gynt Gausdal (3), 1994
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 d6 5.Nf3 0–0 6.0–0 Nbd7 7.Nc3 e5 8.e4 c6 9.h3 Re8 10.Re1 exd4 11.Nxd4 Ne5 12.b3 Qa5 13.Bd2 Qc7 14.Be3 Ned7 15.Qc2 Nc5 16.Rad1 h6 17.f4 Nfd7 18.b4 Ne6 19.Nb3 Nef8 20.Kh1 Nb6 21.Na5 f5 22.Bd4 Be6 23.Bxg7 Kxg7 24.Qf2 Kh7 25.c5 dxc5 26.Qxc5 Qf7 27.b5 Nc8 28.exf5 gxf5 29.Qd4 cxb5 30.Nxb7 Rb8 31.Nd8 Qg6 32.Qe5 Rb6 33.Qc7+ Re7 34.Qc5 Qxg3 35.Nd5 Rg7 36.Nf6+ Kh8 37.Qxf8+ Bg8 38.Rg1 Qg6 39.Ne8
1–0

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=2nNNQbk/p5r1/1r4qp/1p3p2/...

(The position after 39.Ne8 deserves a diagram - look at those white knights!)


Davies,Nigel R (2505) - Lyrberg,Patrik (2400) [E69]
Stockholm-A Stockholm (9), 1995
1.c4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 0–0 5.0–0 d6 6.d4 Nbd7 7.Nc3 e5 8.e4 exd4 9.Nxd4 c6 10.h3 Nc5 11.Re1 Ne6 12.Nc2 a6 13.Be3 Rb8 14.a4 b6 15.Qd2 Nc5 16.Nd4 Bb7 17.Rad1 Ncd7 18.Bh6 Bxh6 19.Qxh6 Ne8 20.e5 Nxe5 21.Rxe5 dxe5 22.Nxc6 Qc7 23.Nd5 Qxc6 24.Ne7+ Kh8 25.Qxf8#
1–0

Davies,Nigel R (2505) - Sasikiran,Krishnan (2375) [E69]
Goodricke op 8th Calcutta (11), 1997
1.c4 g6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.g3 0–0 5.Bg2 d6 6.0–0 Nbd7 7.Nc3 e5 8.e4 c6 9.b3 exd4 10.Nxd4 Re8 11.h3 a6 12.Re1 Rb8 13.Rb1 c5 14.Nc2 b5 15.Qxd6 Rb6 16.Qd1 Rbe6 17.cxb5 axb5 18.b4 cxb4 19.Nxb4 Bb7 20.Nbd5 Nxd5 21.Nxd5 Bc6 22.Nf4 Rxe4 23.Bxe4 Bxe4 24.Rb3 Bc6 25.Rxe8+ Qxe8 26.Re3 Qa8 27.Qe2 Nf6 28.Kh2 Ne4 29.Bb2 Bf8 30.Ba1 Bg7 31.Bxg7 Kxg7 32.Qb2+ Kg8 33.h4 Nd6 34.Rd3 Ne8 35.a3 Qa4 36.Qd4 Qa8 37.Qd8 Qa7 38.Re3 Kg7 39.Qe7 Qb6 40.Ne6+
1–0

Davies,Nigel R (2505) - Sahl,Bjarke (2430) [E68]
Jarleslaget op Trondheim (3), 1997
1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 0–0 5.0–0 d6 6.d4 Nbd7 7.Nc3 e5 8.e4 exd4 9.Nxd4 Re8 10.h3 a6 11.Re1 Rb8 12.a4 a5 13.Ndb5 Ne5 14.b3 Nfd7 15.Ra2 Nc5 16.Rd2 Bd7 17.Bb2 Bxh3 18.Bxh3 Nxb3 19.Rd5 c6 20.Rxe5 Rxe5 21.Qxb3 cxb5 22.cxb5 Rh5 23.Bg2 Qf6 24.Rb1 Rc5 25.Nd5 Qe6 26.Ba3 Rcc8 27.Qd3 Rd8 28.Qd2 h5 29.Bb2 Bxb2 30.Qxb2 Qe5 31.Qd2 Rdc8 32.f4 Qe6 33.Re1 Rc4 34.e5 Kg7 35.f5
1–0

(For some reason, in his book Davies gives this last game as "Davies - Kristensen".)

Davies concludes:

"I hope that I have demonstrated that players should invest their time in the type of structural study shown in the preceding games rather than the banal memorisation of variations."

Soltis' book "Pawn Structure Chess", justifiably praised in this thread, makes the same point.
« Last Edit: 07/23/07 at 12:37:33 by Pessoa »  
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Re: Understanding the white side of the KID?!
Reply #28 - 07/23/07 at 09:28:45
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Bibs wrote on 07/19/07 at 00:37:19:
Pessoa,
Sounds an interesting book. Before I go hunting and maybe find myself disappointed, what lines does Knaak recommend as white?

So now I got the book back ... ("Königsindisch pro & contra", by Knaak and Vogt, 1992).

As I said before, it is structured according to typical pawn structures that may arsise. Both parts (White and Black) contain the following chapters:

1) Black plays ...e5, White replies with d5
2) Black attacks the centre with ...c5
3) Black plays ...c5 and ...e5
4) Black plays ...exd4
5) White plays dxe5

In the White part (103 pages), Knaak lightly annotates 49 games (22 of these his own), giving just a few variations here and there, interspersed with some useful verbal explanation.

In the Black part (109 pages), Vogt lightly annotates 39 games (18 of these his own).

All major King's Indian lines are represented by a couple of games (Classical, Sämisch, Fianchetto, Four Pawns, Exchange, Averbakh).

In the foreword Knaak says that, if asked to recommend a line to White, he'd name the Sämisch and the Averbakh, or the system with Nf3 and h3.

So, no deep analysis. But after having played through the 49 games given by Knaak, one cannot help wondering why anybody would want to play the King's Indian ...  However, after having played through the 39 games given by Vogt, one cannot help wondering why anybody would want to play 1.d4 ...  Grin


« Last Edit: 07/23/07 at 11:48:45 by Pessoa »  
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Re: Understanding the white side of the KID?!
Reply #27 - 07/21/07 at 11:07:33
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sssthepro wrote on 07/21/07 at 00:50:22:
Well then, what about the Bayonet Attack? I know that Radjabov had won quite a few games against it nowadays, but who knows when he will be knocked down again?

And what about the Gligoric System, or the Petrosian System? This system is mostly about prophlayxis and stopping Black's plans. Sometimes, for example in the Petrosian System, White can be the one attacking on the Kingside if Black is not careful. Ok, the Petrosian System may not be so popular now, but it is still okay, and I dont see a lot of Black wins. However, Gligoric System is chalking up quite a lot of points. If I remember correctly, Ivanchuk won Radjabov in the Amber Tournament this year with it.


Off to a Ping Pong tournament now, so my response will have to be brief.
Very rare to see White attacking kingside in The Petrosian system, and while it is ok for White it is no longer considered a critical test for Black. As a former Kramnik weapon The Petrosian still deserves respect though, having said that I particularly like the system Zdenko Kozul employs against it.

The Gligoric system was Kasparov's preferred system when facing the KID so need I say more. Nevertheless this just leads to very complex play with chances for both sides which is really what KID players relish anyway and reinforces my point that there is no easy path for White in the KID if he seeks an advantage. I like Nataf's, Radjabov's and Hebden's treatment on the Black side.

Well gotta run, but will probably elaborate on the above later.

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Understanding the white side of the KID?!
Reply #26 - 07/21/07 at 06:59:49
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Markovich.
Shouldnt bother. Looked at the most popular response, the 'Sicilian' i think is called, though thought that was a book by the Godfather guy, Puzo. My old Atari ST reckons white has an edge due to open lines for queen and bishop. In the abstract anyhow. It is still working on actual moves, though has a slow processor. More in a few decades.
  
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Re: Understanding the white side of the KID?!
Reply #25 - 07/21/07 at 04:11:39
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TopNotch wrote on 07/19/07 at 23:19:11:
The main problem that most White players encounter when facing the KID, is the idea that there is a simple way to maintain an edge without incurring serious risks themselves. As a lifelong KID player myself, let me help you......... No Such System For White Exists.

If White wants a legitimate advantage against the KID, he will have to choose from one of many critical lines which invariably constitute highly complex play with chances for both sides, and in particular where general knowledge will not be enough to see either side through. Perhaps the closest variation where White can try to play for a risk free edge is the Fianchetto variation, but even here a seasoned KID player can sharpen the play without excessive risk.

Someone mentioned that the key to unsettling KID players is to play prophylacticly, but such an approach works both ways, and while the effectiveness of such a strategy is useful to realise, one should also note that prophylactic play is also part and parcel of Black's thinking. The difference is that the stakes are usually much higher for white than black, in that failure to take appropriate prophylactic measures for black may lead to the loss of some queenside pawns but for white it usually spells an embarrasing checkmate or King hunt and not just at the lower levels but at the very highest levels as well.      

White players may not believe this, but The Mar de Plata variation is perhaps the single most common reason why players take up the KID in the first place. These type of positions are simply too much fun for attack minded Black players to resist, and in praxis extremely difficult for White players to defend, as ways for breaking into White's castled position seem almost inexhaustible. Even reknowned experts on the White side of the Classical are not immune from utter debacle as illustrated by one of my favorites:

[Event "Bundesliga"]
[Site "Berlin GER"]
[Date "1997.??.??"]
[White "Ftacnik,L"]
[Black "Cvitan,O"]
[Round "02"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2585"]
[BlackElo "2570"]
[ECO "A48"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. c4 Bg7 4. Nc3 O-O 5. e4 d6 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Nd2
Ne8 10. b4 f5 11. c5 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. Nc4 g5 14. a4 Ng6 15. Ba3 Rf7 16. b5 dxc5 17. Bxc5
h5 18. a5 g4 19. b6 g3 20. Kh1 Nh7 21. d6 Qh4 22. Bg1 Bh3 23. bxc7 Bxg2+ 24. Kxg2 Qh3+!! 25. Kxh3
Ng5+ 26. Kg2 Nh4+ 27. Kh1 g2#  0-1



[url]http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.php?fen=r5k1/ppP2rbn/3P2n1/P3p2p/2N1Pp2/2N2Ppq/4B1KP/R2Q1RB1 w - - 0 25[/url]

Position After Black's 24th Move


Pure unadulterated carnage. Of course theory has moved on for both sides since this game but it is still quite striking how alert and brave White has to be to play let alone survive these types of positions so indicative of the Classical in general.   


To sum up: Understanding a few ideas, including but not limited to how to handle various pawn structures, particularly closed ones, will not ensure you an advantage or even a comfortable game against the KID [IM Timothy Taylor tried such an approach in a recent repertoire book, but I for one was not convinced]. Such understanding only when combined with intimate theoretical knowledge will stand any chance of success and even then its much easier said than done given the KID's constant state of flux.   

Toppy Smiley


Well, now we can move on and solve 1. e4, then.
  

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Re: Understanding the white side of the KID?!
Reply #24 - 07/21/07 at 00:50:22
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Well then, what about the Bayonet Attack? I know that Radjabov had won quite a few games against it nowadays, but who knows when he will be knocked down again?

And what about the Gligoric System, or the Petrosian System? This system is mostly about prophlayxis and stopping Black's plans. Sometimes, for example in the Petrosian System, White can be the one attacking on the Kingside if Black is not careful. Ok, the Petrosian System may not be so popular now, but it is still okay, and I dont see a lot of Black wins. However, Gligoric System is chalking up quite a lot of points. If I remember correctly, Ivanchuk won Radjabov in the Amber Tournament this year with it.
  
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Re: Understanding the white side of the KID?!
Reply #23 - 07/20/07 at 04:14:54
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Uberdecker wrote on 07/20/07 at 01:21:50:
Dear TopNotch,

 When making my statement that White should be able to maintain a stable edge in the Mar del Plata (and Classical variation in general) without making a thorough study of theory, I could hardly expect lifelong KID die-hards such as yourself to agree. Since this is an abstract question it makes little sense for me to pursue the debate.
 However, I would like to comment on what you wrote about the stakes being higher on the Kingside than on the Queenside. "Losing one or two pawns on the Queenside" proves decisive almost as often as suffering an "embarrasing checkmate". The only difference is the length of possible resistance by the losing side. Also, it should be noted that Black's prophylactic ressources are rather limited. For example, it is often not a happy state of affairs to have all one's pieces tied to the defence of the -d6 pawn. It is simply not possible to contain White's Queenside play in the long run. Passive defence here is doomed to failure. Black is forced to come up with something concrete on the Kingside  before White closes in on the other wing. And here he must truly beware of his play being nipped in the bud. For example, there are several modern variations involving the move g4,  where Black can inexpectedly find himself prospectless.

Regarding the line employed in your example, I believe that the atheoretical 10. b3 is probably stonger than 10. b4. What improvements for Black would you suggest in the line I contributed earlier ?

Regards,
UD


Maybe White should be able to maintain a stable edge in the Classical, in fact most Chess engines state exactly that, fortunately and unfortunately in closed positions one must be very careful how one relies on engine analysis. Engines aside White has never been able to show a stable edge over the years or in fact found a way to neutralise fully Black's Kingside initiative.

Attempting to gum up the Kingside with various g4 ideas have come and gone over the years, and on each occasion Black has found sufficient counter measures to encourage White to look elsewhere for an easy life.

I had to scroll back to find your b3 idea, and honestly I have not examined it fully yet but my initial reaction to it is that its harmless at best. The sequence you give 10.b3?! intending 10...f5 11.Ba3 provoking a move that black often makes anyway with the added bonus of leaving the bishop misplaced on a3. After 11...b6 you say your idea is 12.exf5 but after 12...Nxf5 I don't see any problems for Black, and this exploiting light squared business you speak of on the Queenside sounds nice but how exactly do you propose to achieve this, maybe with a c5 pawn sac perhaps but thats speculative at best.

My gut feeling about 10.b3 is that it is not as bad as it looks and White should be able to maintain equality after it, but an improvement on 10.b4 I think not. White's play in the closed Classical is on the Queenside, and he really ought to get on with it without all the pottering around.

Toppy Smiley

Postscript: Another promising possibility worth investigation is the immediate 10...c5
  

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Re: Understanding the white side of the KID?!
Reply #22 - 07/20/07 at 02:10:21
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Such lofty abstract statements regarding supposed white superiority (or black's for that matter)appear to have little worth. Not proven in the last fifty years or so. Doesn't look like being proven presently.

Sorry, but need something rather more concrete.  I look forward to seeing some (very) detailed analyses to back up such assertions. Otherwise the words are simply empty.

best regards all

Bibs
  
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Re: Understanding the white side of the KID?!
Reply #21 - 07/20/07 at 01:21:50
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Dear TopNotch,

  When making my statement that White should be able to maintain a stable edge in the Mar del Plata (and Classical variation in general) without making a thorough study of theory, I could hardly expect lifelong KID die-hards such as yourself to agree. Since this is an abstract question it makes little sense for me to pursue the debate.
  However, I would like to comment on what you wrote about the stakes being higher on the Kingside than on the Queenside. "Losing one or two pawns on the Queenside" proves decisive almost as often as suffering an "embarrasing checkmate". The only difference is the length of possible resistance by the losing side. Also, it should be noted that Black's prophylactic ressources are rather limited. For example, it is often not a happy state of affairs to have all one's pieces tied to the defence of the -d6 pawn. It is simply not possible to contain White's Queenside play in the long run. Passive defence here is doomed to failure. Black is forced to come up with something concrete on the Kingside  before White closes in on the other wing. And here he must truly beware of his play being nipped in the bud. For example, there are several modern variations involving the move g4,  where Black can inexpectedly find himself prospectless.

Regarding the line employed in your example, I believe that the atheoretical 10. b3 is probably stonger than 10. b4. What improvements for Black would you suggest in the line I contributed earlier ?

Regards,
UD
  
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Re: Understanding the white side of the KID?!
Reply #20 - 07/19/07 at 23:19:11
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The main problem that most White players encounter when facing the KID, is the idea that there is a simple way to maintain an edge without incurring serious risks themselves. As a lifelong KID player myself, let me help you......... No Such System For White Exists.

If White wants a legitimate advantage against the KID, he will have to choose from one of many critical lines which invariably constitute highly complex play with chances for both sides, and in particular where general knowledge will not be enough to see either side through. Perhaps the closest variation where White can try to play for a risk free edge is the Fianchetto variation, but even here a seasoned KID player can sharpen the play without excessive risk.

Someone mentioned that the key to unsettling KID players is to play prophylacticly, but such an approach works both ways, and while the effectiveness of such a strategy is useful to realise, one should also note that prophylactic play is also part and parcel of Black's thinking. The difference is that the stakes are usually much higher for white than black, in that failure to take appropriate prophylactic measures for black may lead to the loss of some queenside pawns but for white it usually spells an embarrasing checkmate or King hunt and not just at the lower levels but at the very highest levels as well.      

White players may not believe this, but The Mar de Plata variation is perhaps the single most common reason why players take up the KID in the first place. These type of positions are simply too much fun for attack minded Black players to resist, and in praxis extremely difficult for White players to defend, as ways for breaking into White's castled position seem almost inexhaustible. Even reknowned experts on the White side of the Classical are not immune from utter debacle as illustrated by one of my favorites:

[Event "Bundesliga"]
[Site "Berlin GER"]
[Date "1997.??.??"]
[White "Ftacnik,L"]
[Black "Cvitan,O"]
[Round "02"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2585"]
[BlackElo "2570"]
[ECO "A48"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. c4 Bg7 4. Nc3 O-O 5. e4 d6 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Nd2
Ne8 10. b4 f5 11. c5 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. Nc4 g5 14. a4 Ng6 15. Ba3 Rf7 16. b5 dxc5 17. Bxc5
h5 18. a5 g4 19. b6 g3 20. Kh1 Nh7 21. d6 Qh4 22. Bg1 Bh3 23. bxc7 Bxg2+ 24. Kxg2 Qh3+!! 25. Kxh3
Ng5+ 26. Kg2 Nh4+ 27. Kh1 g2#  0-1




Position After Black's 24th Move


Pure unadulterated carnage. Of course theory has moved on for both sides since this game but it is still quite striking how alert and brave White has to be to play let alone survive these types of positions so indicative of the Classical in general.  


To sum up: Understanding a few ideas, including but not limited to how to handle various pawn structures, particularly closed ones, will not ensure you an advantage or even a comfortable game against the KID [IM Timothy Taylor tried such an approach in a recent repertoire book, but I for one was not convinced]. Such understanding only when combined with intimate theoretical knowledge will stand any chance of success and even then its much easier said than done given the KID's constant state of flux.  

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Pessoa
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As coisas não têm significação:
têm existência.

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Re: Understanding the white side of the KID?!
Reply #19 - 07/19/07 at 08:13:43
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Bibs wrote on 07/19/07 at 00:37:19:
Pessoa,
Sounds an interesting book. Before I go hunting and maybe find myself disappointed, what lines does Knaak recommend as white?

Well, I haven't looked at the book for a long time ...

As far as I can remember, Knaak doesn't recommend specific lines,
but, rather, treats typical pawn structures that may arise, and gives
some exemplary games to show "ideal" white strategy.

Also, keep in mind that the "theory" in this 1992 book is a bit outdated.
But this isn't really important. The book (i.e., the "white part") does a
very good job of conveying the "spirit" White should get into when playing
against the KID. (At least it did a good job on me ...  But the "black part" isn't bad either.)

It comes pretty close to what Uberdeker said the other day:

Quote:
Some Queenside pressure, some Kingside prophylaxis and White ought to remain on top.

More on this on Monday (I haven't access to the book right now ...).
« Last Edit: 07/19/07 at 09:51:58 by Pessoa »  
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Bibs
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Re: Understanding the white side of the KID?!
Reply #18 - 07/19/07 at 00:37:19
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Pessoa,

Sounds an interesting book. Before I go hunting and maybe find myself disappointed, what lines does Knaak recommend as white?

All,

Palliser's book is good I feel.

Also worth a look is Shereshevsky's Soviet Chess Conveyor. Good explanations of lines. Example games too. Bit dated tho - needs supplementing with recent stuff but ideas all there.
Out of print, but downloadable as ebook. (Ahem, for those so inclined, downloadable free as a torrent from isohunt.  Ahem, I heard.)

As per Eric the Red's suggestion of Bg5 in the saemisch, yes I agree. Ward's book controversial Saemisch has stuff on this. also look at Matt sadler's games. You should find this book v helpful. Some chitchat, gd explanation plus many sample games. This probably the most useful for you.

  
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Re: Great MDP ideas
Reply #17 - 07/18/07 at 15:23:12
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[quote author=cma6 link=1153173757/0#12 date=1183421882]
Uberdecker:
 These are great ideas for the Mar del Plata White player. Have you seen any recent theory along these lines?
[/quote]

No, I don't think the b3 ideas have been tried in practice, but they are a good example of the fact that you can get good prospects against the KID without memorising variations. Some Queenside pressure, some Kingside prophylaxis and White ought to remain on top.
  
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