Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Anything slated for the Pirc? (Read 13975 times)
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Anything slated for the Pirc?
Reply #24 - 09/12/06 at 14:13:20
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 09/12/06 at 03:11:29:
I  Speaking of which, I must confess to a recent pang of nostagic regret over the fact that I no longer have a copy of Keene and Botterill's "The Pirc Defence."


I picked this up, and its sister book on the Modern on eBay recently for nostalgia reasons  Smiley.

The Pirc and Modern (I guess most openings really) are a matter of taste and style, and if they work for you, go for it. I've seen nothing to show they are busted. I accept that some lines might be uncomfortable for Black, but then I compare them with similar uncomfortable lines in other openings and see that it's not so bad. And in those lines especially I have my TNs ready for Black!
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarinFan
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 425
Location: Leeds
Joined: 04/04/06
Gender: Male
Re: Anything slated for the Pirc?
Reply #23 - 09/12/06 at 12:56:51
Post Tools
Hello,

Kylemeister got the name of Jansa's book slightly wrong, it is "Dynamics of Chess Strategy", but otherwise was right with content.

Bye John S
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2898
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Anything slated for the Pirc?
Reply #22 - 09/12/06 at 10:08:02
Post Tools
Welcome to Marc Narciso, it is interesting to hear opinions of such a strong player about books. There is another book on the Modern Defence I used to have but now cannot seem to find  Sad  It is called "Modern Defence" by English GM Dave Norwood, and written in a style which is much like his own personality. I found that book an interesting read, although not sure how objective it may be... but it certainly persuaded me to give the Modern a try for some games.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Marc Narciso
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 20
Location: Barcelona
Joined: 09/11/06
Gender: Male
Re: Anything slated for the Pirc?
Reply #21 - 09/12/06 at 09:19:07
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 09/12/06 at 03:11:29:
I presume MNb was referring to Jansa's book "Dynamic Chess Strategy."  I like that book very much, but most of it is not about the Pirc (there are larger sections pertaining to the Ruy/Spanish, Gruenfeld and Scheveningen Sicilian for example).  Speaking of which, I must confess to a recent pang of nostagic regret over the fact that I no longer have a copy of Keene and Botterill's "The Pirc Defence."


As far as I know "Dynamic Chess Strategy" is not a Jansa´s book but  Mihai Subas´s best book ( By the way, his other book "The hedgehog" is fun to read but not so good  in my opinion).

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Marc Narciso
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 20
Location: Barcelona
Joined: 09/11/06
Gender: Male
Re: Anything slated for the Pirc?
Reply #20 - 09/12/06 at 09:05:52
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 09/12/06 at 02:52:12:
If you agree, I will open a new thread and ask you some questions.
??


Ok, no problem. Just don´t ask to Marc Narciso only, but to all the forum. If I have some answer to your questions, I will try to share it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4706
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Anything slated for the Pirc?
Reply #19 - 09/12/06 at 03:11:29
Post Tools
I presume MNb was referring to Jansa's book "Dynamic Chess Strategy."  I like that book very much, but most of it is not about the Pirc (there are larger sections pertaining to the Ruy/Spanish, Gruenfeld and Scheveningen Sicilian for example).  Speaking of which, I must confess to a recent pang of nostagic regret over the fact that I no longer have a copy of Keene and Botterill's "The Pirc Defence."
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10593
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Anything slated for the Pirc?
Reply #18 - 09/12/06 at 02:52:12
Post Tools
Welcome over here, were all your opinions and biases will be teared apart and reconstructed again  Cheesy.
No, Jansa has not written a book on the Pirc, as far as I know.
I agree more or less on the Nunn/McNab book, I own it. But it is way too short on the 4.Be3 systems. One example: on page 186 they give 6.Bh6 o-o 7.o-o-o b5 8.Bd3 and cite Nevednichy-Istratescu, Bucarest 1993. They do not realize, that White can play 8.f3 or maybe even better 7.f3. The resulting lines are similar to 5.f3 c6 6.Qd2 c6, were they write: "the mixture of ...o-o and ...c6 is doubtful; if Black wants to expand with ...c6 and ...b5 he should not present White with a fixed target."
The coverage of White's attacking systems based on 4.Be3 and 5.Qd2 has too many gaps, also after 1998 standards.
As you have some experience on this system with both colours, I would cherish to debate it with you. I have played it as White for more than 20 years. If you agree, I will open a new thread and ask you some questions.
??
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Marc Narciso
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 20
Location: Barcelona
Joined: 09/11/06
Gender: Male
Re: Anything slated for the Pirc?
Reply #17 - 09/11/06 at 22:27:56
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 09/08/06 at 04:01:04:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3
I) Here Jansa's recommendation is 4...c6, to discourage x.Bh6. This indeed renders both the Argentine and 150-Attack harmless.


So has Jansa written a book about the Pirc? I am interested to read his thoughts about this fascinating defence,  but I don´t find information about that book in the internet

By the way, if somebody wants to start with the Pirc/Modern complex I can recommend the Nunn-McNab " The ultimate Pirc" the Speelman-McDonald "the Modern defence" and the Hillarp-Persson "The Tiger Modern".   

The first is a nice "encyclopaedia" of the Pirc, and also includes modern chapters. Very complete and a good reference.
The second is a less sistematic but highly inspiring work. The Speelman´s chapter about the Averbakh is very good. The third is a great effort, the author transmits his passion for this defence, but at the same time keeps some helpful objectivity (black is not always winning and sometimes even has problems). Very nice book.

There is a fouth book I can mention "Pirc Alert" that has some good chapters but on the whole I wold not recommend it, the book is very big but the useful part is less than half of it.

Just my opinion.

By the way, it is my first message in this forums, so hi everybody.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Holbox
Senior Member
****
Offline


Saigón Café

Posts: 369
Joined: 02/08/05
Re: Anything slated for the Pirc?
Reply #16 - 09/08/06 at 10:01:06
Post Tools
I just want to add something, I think significative.

Look at ranking of this recent tournament :

http://www.cotxeres.org/open/RanquingDEFGrupA.HTM

This are the all the games played with black by the winner, Marc Narciso:


[Event "VIII Open internacional de Sants"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[Round "2.14"]
[White "Sanahuja Palomo, Alex"]
[Black "Narciso Dublan, Marc"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B07"]
[PlyCount "70"]
[EventDate "2006.??.??"]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 d6 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. Qe2 Nc6 6. e5 Ng4 7. e6 f5 8. h3 Nf6
9. d5 Na5 10. Bd3 c6 11. g4 f4 12. h4 Nxd5 13. Nxd5 cxd5 14. g5 Nc6 15. Bxf4
Nd4 16. Qe3 Nxe6 17. Ne2 Qa5+ 18. c3 d4 19. Qd2 dxc3 20. Nxc3 Nxf4 21. Qxf4
Bxc3+ 22. bxc3 Qxc3+ 23. Ke2 Qb2+ 24. Ke3 Rf8 25. Qg3 Qb6+ 26. Ke2 Bf5 27. Rhd1
Bxd3+ 28. Kxd3 Rxf2 29. Rab1 Qa6+ 30. Kd4 e5+ 31. Kd5 Qc6+ 32. Ke6 Qd7+ 33. Kd5
Qf7+ 34. Ke4 Qc4+ 35. Ke3 Qe2# 0-1

[Event "VIII Open internacional de Sants"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[Round "5.10"]
[White "Fernandez Aguado, Enrique"]
[Black "Narciso Dublan, Marc"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C68"]
[PlyCount "98"]
[EventDate "2006.??.??"]

1. e4 Nc6 2. Nf3 e5 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. Nc3 Qd6 6. d4 exd4 7. Nxd4 Bd7 8.
Be3 O-O-O 9. Qh5 Qg6 10. Qxg6 hxg6 11. O-O-O Nh6 12. h3 f6 13. Rd3 Ng4 14. Re1
Nxe3 15. Rdxe3 Bd6 16. Nce2 Rde8 17. Kd1 Re7 18. Nc1 Rd8 19. c3 c5 20. Nf3 Bf4
21. Rd3 c4 22. Rd4 c5 23. Rd5 Bc6 24. Rxd8+ Kxd8 25. g3 Bh6 26. Nd2 Rd7 27. f4
g5 28. Kc2 gxf4 29. gxf4 Ba4+ 30. b3 cxb3+ 31. axb3 Bxf4 32. Nc4 Bb5 33. Nd3
Bd6 34. Nxd6 Bxd3+ 35. Kxd3 Kc7 36. e5 fxe5 37. Rxe5 Kxd6 38. Rg5 Kc6+ 39. Kc2
Rf7 40. h4 a5 41. c4 b6 42. h5 Kb7 43. Rg6 Ka6 44. h6 gxh6 45. Rxh6 Rf4 46. Rh8
Rf6 47. Kb2 Kb7 48. Ka3 Rf1 49. Rg8 Ka6 1/2-1/2

[Event "VIII Open internacional de Sants"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[Round "6.10"]
[White "Oms Fuentes, Ll"]
[Black "Narciso Dublan, M."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B07"]
[PlyCount "73"]
[EventDate "2006.??.??"]

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. g3 Bg7 5. Bg2 O-O 6. Nge2 Nbd7 7. O-O c5 8. h3
Rb8 9. a4 b6 10. Be3 a6 11. Qd2 Bb7 12. Rad1 cxd4 13. Bxd4 Qe8 14. Nd5 e5 15.
Be3 Nxd5 16. exd5 a5 17. c4 Nc5 18. Bxc5 bxc5 19. Nc3 Qd8 20. Nb5 Ba6 21. h4
Rb7 22. Bf3 f5 23. Be2 h5 24. Qg5 Rf6 25. Qd2 Kh7 26. Kg2 Bh6 27. Qc2 Rbf7 28.
f3 Qf8 29. Bd3 Bc8 30. Nc3 Be3 31. Rde1 Qh6 32. Qe2 Bd2 33. Rd1 Bxc3 34. bxc3
f4 35. Qd2 Qf8 36. Be4 fxg3 37. Rh1 0-1

[Event "VIII Open internacional de Sants"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[Round "8.3"]
[White "Rodriguez Andres"]
[Black "Narciso Dublan Marc"]
[Result "0-1"]
[PlyCount "110"]
[EventDate "2006.??.??"]

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. h3 Bg7 5. Be3 O-O 6. Qd2 e5 7. d5 c6 8. dxc6
Nxc6 9. O-O-O Qa5 10. Bc4 Rd8 11. Nf3 Be6 12. Bxe6 fxe6 13. Kb1 Rd7 14. Bh6
Bxh6 15. Qxh6 Qb6 16. Qh4 Rf8 17. Rd3 d5 18. exd5 exd5 19. Ng5 Nd4 20. Rhd1 Rc8
21. Nf3 Nf5 22. Qa4 e4 23. Nxd5 Rxd5 24. Rxd5 Nxd5 25. Rxd5 exf3 26. g4 Qxf2
27. Rd1 Ne3 28. Qb3+ Kh8 29. Rc1 Kg7 30. Qe6 Rf8 31. Qd7+ Rf7 32. Qd4+ Kh6 33.
h4 Nxg4 34. Qxg4 Qe3 35. Qc4 Rf4 36. Qf1 Rxh4 37. Re1 Qd2 38. a3 Rh2 39. Rc1 f2
40. Rd1 Qe3 41. Ka2 Qe6+ 42. c4 Qh3 43. Qe2 f1=Q 44. Qxf1 Qxf1 45. Rxf1 Kg7 46.
Rd1 Rf2 47. c5 h5 48. Rd7+ Rf7 49. Rd5 h4 50. b4 Kh6 51. b5 Rc7 52. Kb3 g5 53.
Kb4 h3 54. Rd6+ Kh5 55. c6 bxc6 0-1

[Event "VIII Open internacional de Sants"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[Round "10.2"]
[White "Kalegin Evgenij"]
[Black "Narciso Dublan Marc"]
[Result "0-1"]
[PlyCount "102"]
[EventDate "2006.??.??"]

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. Be2 O-O 6. O-O c6 7. a4 Nbd7 8. Be3
Qc7 9. Nd2 e5 10. dxe5 Nxe5 11. h3 b6 12. f4 Ned7 13. Bf3 a5 14. Re1 Ba6 15.
Nb3 Rad8 16. Qd2 Nc5 17. Qf2 Nfd7 18. Nd2 Rfe8 19. g4 Re7 20. Bg2 Rde8 21. f5
Be5 22. Bf4 f6 23. Bxe5 Nxe5 24. fxg6 hxg6 25. Nf3 Kg7 26. Rad1 Ne6 27. Qg3 Rd7
28. Nd4 Nxd4 29. Rxd4 Qd8 30. Red1 Qe7 31. Bf1 Bxf1 32. Rxf1 Nf7 33. Rd3 Qe5
34. Qf2 Qc5 35. Re3 Ne5 36. Kg2 Rf7 37. b3 d5 38. Rg3 d4 39. Nd1 Nd7 40. Qe2
Qe5 41. Nf2 Nc5 42. Re1 Rfe7 43. Qc4 Qd6 44. h4 Nxe4 45. Nxe4 Rxe4 46. Rxe4
Rxe4 47. h5 Qe6 48. Qxe6 Rxe6 49. c3 Re2+ 50. Kh3 c5 51. cxd4 cxd4 0-1

5 games with black 4.5 points : 4 points with the Pirc, 1/2 point with the Ruy.

Terrific!

  

"Ladran, luego cabalgamos", NN
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10593
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Anything slated for the Pirc?
Reply #15 - 09/08/06 at 04:01:04
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 09/07/06 at 07:43:48:
Of the other White trys - I´d be interested in recommendations against the early Be3 system, and the worst named system "150 attack".


1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3
I) Here Jansa's recommendation is 4...c6, to discourage x.Bh6. This indeed renders both the Argentine and 150-Attack harmless: 5.Qd2 Nbd7
a) 6.f3 b5 7.g4 (maybe 7.h4 and 8.Nh3) Nb6 8.h4 h6 9.Bd3 e5 10.dxe5 dxe5 11.Rd1 Antal-Firman, Miskolc 2004, and I don't see what White has after Be6, idea Qc7 and Rd8.
b) 6.Nf3 e5 followed by 7...Qe7 and only now 8...Bg7.
So as White I would chose 5.h3 and 6.f4. Compared to the Austrian Attack proper 5.h3 might be more useful than 4...c6.

II) A normal continuation is 4...Bg7 5.Qd2 c6
a) 6.f3 b5 7.h4 (7.g4 h5) Nbd7 8.g4 h6 9.Nge2 Nb6 10.Ng3 h5 11.Ng3 Nfd7.
b) 6.Nf3 Nbd7 7.Bh6 Bxh6 8.Qxh6 e5 9.o-o-o usually transposes to
c) 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Nbd7 8.o-o-o e5 and now White can chose between 9.f3, 9.h3, 9.dxe5 and 9.o-o-o.

III) If Black also plays the KID, (s)he might consider the Robatsch: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 (3.f4 c5!? and 3.Nc3 Nf6  Kiss) c6 4.Be3 (4.f4 d5!? as the bishop on f8 is not worse than on g7 after 5.e5 h5) Bg7 (Nf6 see I; b5 5.d5) 5.Qd2 (5.f4!?) Nd7 (Nf6 see II)
a) 6.f3 b5 7.h4 h5 8.Nh3 Nb6 9.Ng5 and here Rb8 is more useful than Ngf6.
b) 6.Nf3 e5 and ...Qe7 is similar to Ic.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2898
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Anything slated for the Pirc?
Reply #14 - 09/07/06 at 14:14:33
Post Tools
I am more of a Pirc dabbler than an expert - it is such an interesting opening that I play it from time to time against weaker players, to be honest without really having a full handle on it.

Eddie - I agree with your comments about ...Nc6 in the Austrian. To be honest though, from a Black point of view the move after 5...0-0 that really strikes fear into me is not the standard move 6.Bd3 where all the theory is - no it is this tricky business of 6.Be3! Having seen some recent games with this by some impressive players I am getting the impression this is the line where White says - " I am coming to get you..." and more often than not he does!

I also agree - the modern move order may be a good way to cop out of all this sharp theory, although we have to be careful there too  Sad
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Edward_Dearing
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 113
Location: England
Joined: 01/08/03
Re: Anything slated for the Pirc?
Reply #13 - 09/07/06 at 13:23:58
Post Tools
Heh, sorry, I can't go giving away what little prep I have. However I can confirm that 5...c5 has serious problems in at least 2 of the main lines, and that black has some decent modern options (I experimented with g6, Bg7, c6 for a while, and that still has a lot going for it).

Black has some interesting resources in the 8...Bg4 line, however I still believe that 9.Bc4 should give White an edge (albeit less so than many sources suggest). I know of at least 2 GMs who are quite convinced that Black is fine after 5...0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6!?. I'm not so sure, but black definitely has some tricky resources.

All the best,

Eddie
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2898
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Anything slated for the Pirc?
Reply #12 - 09/07/06 at 07:43:48
Post Tools
I believe the Pirc is not in bad shape, although I dont trust those ...Na6 lines against the Austrian. My only gripe is theoretically the early ...c5 line is best against the Austrian, but then there is the annoying forced draw line to contend with which makes this line unsuitable for playing against a weaker player. So against a weaker player maybe best are the old-fashioned lines with ...Nc6 which theoretically White is on top but there is still lots of tension in these positions.

Of the other White trys - I´d be interested in recommendations against the early Be3 system, and the worst named system "150 attack".
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Holbox
Senior Member
****
Offline


Saigón Café

Posts: 369
Joined: 02/08/05
Re: Anything slated for the Pirc?
Reply #11 - 09/07/06 at 07:12:17
Post Tools
Quote:
but why not 8...Bg4 as Weeramantry recommends in Best Lessons of a Chess Coach


I'm sorry, I mixed things, it was Lugovoi in his Chessbase CD on the Pirc.

  

"Ladran, luego cabalgamos", NN
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Holbox
Senior Member
****
Offline


Saigón Café

Posts: 369
Joined: 02/08/05
Re: Anything slated for the Pirc?
Reply #10 - 09/06/06 at 13:31:56
Post Tools
Quote:
The Pirc has its problems, but I would still take my chances in it against most opposition (certainly up to 2500 level). For the record, the Austrian is causing some problems in the traditional mainlines with 5...c5 and 5...0-0 6.Bd3 Na6 7.0-0 c5 8.d5 Rb8 9.f5!?, but Black has a lot of alternatives.


This line is really crude for black, as Gallagher says it his SO book..., but why not 8...Bg4 as Weeramantry recommends in Best Lessons of a Chess Coach. I think that in this Benoni position the black light squared bishop should be exchanged by the knight on f3 as fast as possible. In this way black gets more space and slows, a bit, white's king side attack.



  

"Ladran, luego cabalgamos", NN
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo