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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Anyone got a good line against the RL Schliemann ? (Read 14102 times)
Markovich
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Re: Anyone got a good line against the RL Schliema
Reply #17 - 08/09/06 at 13:09:55
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Markovich wrote on 08/08/06 at 00:03:12:
I don't share your view that 9. f4 Qxf4  10. Nxa7+ is critical.  My present view is that Black is doing well enough there.


it's critical in the sense that if it works then Black is completely busted (as opposed to just being worse)

but maybe Black is OK. I dunno. what do you reckon to 10...Bd7 11 Bxd7+ Kxd7 12 Qb5+ Ke6 13 Qxb7 Bd6 14 Qb3+ Kd7 15 Qf7+ Be7 16 Nc6 Kxc6 17 Qxe7 Rae8 18 Qb4 Rhf8 19 b3 ?

Markovich wrote on 08/08/06 at 00:03:12:
But that is moot, since I've found nothing against 9. Nxa7 etc.  13. d4! and Black plays a very dreary, pawn-down ending.  Who cares whether it's a grind or not?  White tortures Black forever, and probably lands the whole point.  To play such a game is not why I play 1...e5.


actually it's not so easy to win the endgame after 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10 Bxd7+ Nxd7 11 f4 Qc5 12 Nb5 Qxc2 13 d4 Bb4+ 14 Kf2 Qxe2+ 15 Kxe2 0-0-0.

well, OK, this is not why I play 1...e5 either, but maybe it's enough to know that Black can put up a long defence here? Since in all my years with the Schliemann no one has ever played 9 Nxa7+ against me OTB, never mind getting any further into the variation.



I have notes on 12...Ke6 and so forth, and have played it in a few games with success.  But I don't have my notes with me, and I doubt if I'll take the trouble to post here on this subject since I regard the evaluation of this variation as moot.

I think one reason you don't have more people playing 9. Nxa7!+ is that the theory books don't sufficiently recommend it, most of them even awarding the exclam to 9. f4.  Even the updates here completely pass over it (hint, hint, Olivier).

I don't know many strong players who object to playing a long game so long as the win is in view.  The object of this game is to win, you know?  And I opine that White's win is in view after 15. Kxe2.  From a White perspective, a solid plus in the endgame sure beats preparing the blazes out of 10. Nxa7+ and then trying to remember the notes on the rare occasions of encountering 3...f5.

On the other hand, very few strong players want to be caught in a long, difficult struggle, particularly with a weaker player, where a draw is the best possible result -- especially if defeat is not altogether unlikely. 

To score the half point, I would be willing to play a "worse" ending so long as I pretty well knew the technique for drawing it.  But after 15. Kxe2, I don't.  Maybe somebody with more chess education than I have could enlighten me on that subject, but for the time being, I consider 3...f5 unsound precisely because of this line.
  

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Jonathan Tait
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Re: Anyone got a good line against the RL Schliema
Reply #16 - 08/09/06 at 08:18:19
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Markovich wrote on 08/08/06 at 00:03:12:
I don't share your view that 9. f4 Qxf4  10. Nxa7+ is critical.  My present view is that Black is doing well enough there.


it's critical in the sense that if it works then Black is completely busted (as opposed to just being worse)

but maybe Black is OK. I dunno. what do you reckon to 10...Bd7 11 Bxd7+ Kxd7 12 Qb5+ Ke6 13 Qxb7 Bd6 14 Qb3+ Kd7 15 Qf7+ Be7 16 Nc6 Kxc6 17 Qxe7 Rae8 18 Qb4 Rhf8 19 b3 ?

Markovich wrote on 08/08/06 at 00:03:12:
But that is moot, since I've found nothing against 9. Nxa7 etc.  13. d4! and Black plays a very dreary, pawn-down ending.  Who cares whether it's a grind or not?  White tortures Black forever, and probably lands the whole point.  To play such a game is not why I play 1...e5.


actually it's not so easy to win the endgame after 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10 Bxd7+ Nxd7 11 f4 Qc5 12 Nb5 Qxc2 13 d4 Bb4+ 14 Kf2 Qxe2+ 15 Kxe2 0-0-0.

well, OK, this is not why I play 1...e5 either, but maybe it's enough to know that Black can put up a long defence here? Since in all my years with the Schliemann no one has ever played 9 Nxa7+ against me OTB, never mind getting any further into the variation.
  

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Re: Anyone got a good line against the RL Schliema
Reply #15 - 08/08/06 at 13:29:12
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I'm interesting in this new critical continuation, Markovich. Can you suggest some games to study. But after the plausable continuation 11. f4 Qc5 12. Nb5 Be7 13. Nc3 0-0 14. Qe3 Qc6 15. Nxe4 Qxc2 16. 0-0 Rae8 I would be a bit worry about my development if I were White methinks.

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Markovich
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Re: Anyone got a good line against the RL Schliema
Reply #14 - 08/08/06 at 00:03:12
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Markovich wrote on 08/03/06 at 17:11:59:
I am fairly sure it's unsound, because of 8. Qe2 Nf6  9. Nxa7+ Bd7  10. Bxd7+ Nxd7  11. f4!  If someone could convince me otherwise, I might play 3...f5 once more.


Yes, this is very difficult for Black. How are you continuing after 11...Qc5 12 Nb5 Qxc2 ? 13 Nc3, 13 d4 ? I've usually played the latter to grind out the endgame.

Possibly 9 f4 Qxf4 10 Nxa7+ is even more critical; i.e. 10...Bd7 11 Bxd7+ Kxd7 12 Qb5+ Ke6 13 Qxb7 Bd6 14 Qb3+ Kd7. I put loads of work into this line and it's amazing the resources Black can find. But I lost the last time I played it:

15 Qf7+ Be7 16 Nc6 Kxc6 17 Qxe7 Rae8 18 Qb4 Rhf8 19 b3 Ng4 20 Ba3 Qf2+ 21 Kd1 Qxg2 22 Re1 Rg8 23 Qc5+ Kb7 24 Kc1 Nf6 25 Qb5+ Kc8 26 Qe2 Qg5 27 Bb2 Nd5 28 Bd4 Nf4 29 Qc4 Qf5 30 a4 g5 31 a5 Rg6 32 a6 Kd7 33 Bc5 1-0 van Vugt-Tait, ICCF thematic 2003

Then again, checking the updated databases now, I've just spotted:

19 b3 Nd7 20 a4 Qf2+ 21 Kd1 Nb6 22 Qb5+ Kb7 23 Qe2 Nd5 24 c4 Qd4 25 cxd5 ½-½ Jaderholm-Rebord, CXEB 35-Years 2004

Interesting! Maybe I'll look at this again. Smiley


I don't share your view that 9. f4 Qxf4  10. Nxa7+ is critical.  My present view is that Black is doing well enough there.  But that is moot, since I've found nothing against 9. Nxa7 etc.  13. d4! and Black plays a very dreary, pawn-down ending.  Who cares whether it's a grind or not?  White tortures Black forever, and probably lands the whole point.  To play such a game is not why I play 1...e5.

But also as I've pointed out elsewhere, 12...0-0-0?! (which was my secret hope back when I wrote about this line in Hard Chess) fails to  13. Nc3 Nf6  14. a4! and just running the a-pawn is decisive.
  

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Markovich
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Re: Anyone got a good line against the RL Schliema
Reply #13 - 08/07/06 at 23:58:50
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I am fairly sure it's unsound, because of 8. Qe2 Nf6  9. Nxa7+ Bd7  10. Bxd7+ Nxd7  11. f4!  If someone could convince me otherwise, I might play 3...f5 once more.


So I take it Markovich that you have at least changed some of your opinions since writing the article found here: http://www.correspondencechess.com/campbell/hard/h990419.htm ?


Yes, absolutely.  There is a reference above, I believe, to the thead on this board where I lay out my concerns about the soundness of Black's game.
  

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Jonathan Tait
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Re: Anyone got a good line against the RL Schliema
Reply #12 - 08/06/06 at 08:14:55
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Markovich wrote on 08/03/06 at 17:11:59:
I am fairly sure it's unsound, because of 8. Qe2 Nf6  9. Nxa7+ Bd7  10. Bxd7+ Nxd7  11. f4!  If someone could convince me otherwise, I might play 3...f5 once more.


Yes, this is very difficult for Black. How are you continuing after 11...Qc5 12 Nb5 Qxc2 ? 13 Nc3, 13 d4 ? I've usually played the latter to grind out the endgame.

Possibly 9 f4 Qxf4 10 Nxa7+ is even more critical; i.e. 10...Bd7 11 Bxd7+ Kxd7 12 Qb5+ Ke6 13 Qxb7 Bd6 14 Qb3+ Kd7. I put loads of work into this line and it's amazing the resources Black can find. But I lost the last time I played it:

15 Qf7+ Be7 16 Nc6 Kxc6 17 Qxe7 Rae8 18 Qb4 Rhf8 19 b3 Ng4 20 Ba3 Qf2+ 21 Kd1 Qxg2 22 Re1 Rg8 23 Qc5+ Kb7 24 Kc1 Nf6 25 Qb5+ Kc8 26 Qe2 Qg5 27 Bb2 Nd5 28 Bd4 Nf4 29 Qc4 Qf5 30 a4 g5 31 a5 Rg6 32 a6 Kd7 33 Bc5 1-0 van Vugt-Tait, ICCF thematic 2003

Then again, checking the updated databases now, I've just spotted:

19 b3 Nd7 20 a4 Qf2+ 21 Kd1 Nb6 22 Qb5+ Kb7 23 Qe2 Nd5 24 c4 Qd4 25 cxd5 ½-½ Jaderholm-Rebord, CXEB 35-Years 2004

Interesting! Maybe I'll look at this again. Smiley
  

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Re: Anyone got a good line against the RL Schliema
Reply #11 - 08/05/06 at 00:03:05
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I am fairly sure it's unsound, because of 8. Qe2 Nf6  9. Nxa7+ Bd7  10. Bxd7+ Nxd7  11. f4!  If someone could convince me otherwise, I might play 3...f5 once more.


So I take it Markovich that you have at least changed some of your opinions since writing the article found here: http://www.correspondencechess.com/campbell/hard/h990419.htm ?
  
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Markovich
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Re: Anyone got a good line against the RL Schliema
Reply #10 - 08/03/06 at 17:11:59
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Markovich wrote on 08/02/06 at 12:36:50:
I would be curious to know where, in your OTB practice, you put your queen after 4.Nc3 fxe4  5. Nxe4 d5  6. Nxe5 dxe4  7. Nxc6, or do you even go that way?  Unless I'm lost already, I never play a move that I believe to be unsound; so I no longer play 3...f5.


when I go that way I sometimes put it on d5, more often on g5

yes, I think it's probably unsound
but I'm not absolutely certain about that
so I've stopped analysing it so I can remain unsure Smiley

hardly anyone plays (or even knows) the critical lines as White anyway


I am fairly sure it's unsound, because of 8. Qe2 Nf6  9. Nxa7+ Bd7  10. Bxd7+ Nxd7  11. f4!  If someone could convince me otherwise, I might play 3...f5 once more.
  

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Jonathan Tait
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Re: Anyone got a good line against the RL Schliema
Reply #9 - 08/02/06 at 15:07:02
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Markovich wrote on 08/02/06 at 12:36:50:
I would be curious to know where, in your OTB practice, you put your queen after 4.Nc3 fxe4  5. Nxe4 d5  6. Nxe5 dxe4  7. Nxc6, or do you even go that way?  Unless I'm lost already, I never play a move that I believe to be unsound; so I no longer play 3...f5.


when I go that way I sometimes put it on d5, more often on g5

yes, I think it's probably unsound
but I'm not absolutely certain about that
so I've stopped analysing it so I can remain unsure Smiley

hardly anyone plays (or even knows) the critical lines as White anyway
  

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Re: Anyone got a good line against the RL Schliema
Reply #8 - 08/02/06 at 14:09:40
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Jonathan,

I agree absolutely that 4.Nc3 is the most principled move, and if I were playing correspondence I would play this too !

But in OTB many other factors come into consideration, not least being able to find a way through the complications which ensue after 4.Nc3, and I have found that players of the Schliemann tend to be tactcally minded also. So I am very happy with
4.Bxc6 !? which I think might strike a psychological blow as well.

I see the opening as being only a means of getting into an endgame as quickly as possible where the real chess starts. A shade better is fine by me. I am a totally intuitive player with no time or inclination to study !

zenken Cheesy
  
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Markovich
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Re: Anyone got a good line against the RL Schliema
Reply #7 - 08/02/06 at 12:36:50
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Markovich wrote on 08/01/06 at 15:42:30:
It is hardly a great achievement to be "a shade better" after playing 3. Bb5.  Also there are many ways of playing against 3...f5 that leave White "a shade better."  There is only one serious challenge to Black's conception, and that is 4. Nc3.


I agree. 4.Nc3 is the most testing move and is the reason I no longer play 3...f5 in correspondence chess. But to play 4.Nc3 OTB requires a lot of preparation since the critical lines are extremely sharp and Black can cause all sorts of trouble even two or three pawns down. I hardly ever lose these as Black OTB.


I would be curious to know where, in your OTB practice, you put your queen after 4.Nc3 fxe4  5. Nxe4 d5  6. Nxe5 dxe4  7. Nxc6, or do you even go that way?  Unless I'm lost already, I never play a move that I believe to be unsound; so I no longer play 3...f5.
  

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Jonathan Tait
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Re: Anyone got a good line against the RL Schliema
Reply #6 - 08/01/06 at 21:20:57
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Markovich wrote on 08/01/06 at 15:42:30:
It is hardly a great achievement to be "a shade better" after playing 3. Bb5.  Also there are many ways of playing against 3...f5 that leave White "a shade better."  There is only one serious challenge to Black's conception, and that is 4. Nc3.


I agree. 4.Nc3 is the most testing move and is the reason I no longer play 3...f5 in correspondence chess. But to play 4.Nc3 OTB requires a lot of preparation since the critical lines are extremely sharp and Black can cause all sorts of trouble even two or three pawns down. I hardly ever lose these as Black OTB.
  

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Markovich
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Re: Anyone got a good line against the RL Schliema
Reply #5 - 08/01/06 at 15:42:30
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zenken wrote on 08/01/06 at 13:22:01:
Jonathan,

Many thanks for your idea : 1e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Bxc6 !?

I think this will suit me fine as I am very strong in the endgame and it will not suit
a lot of the juniors in the Major Open. I love to torture junior players this way.

After, the natural 4...dxc6 5.Nc3 white  seems a shade better already, I mean I am just going to win that
sickly looking pawn on e5 at some stage, aren't I ?

After 4...bxc6 5.0-0 ! is a brilliant suggestion, I can't see a good move for Black !

Thank you very much.

Markovitch - thanks also for drawing my attention to your previous posts, but I feel Jonathan's
suggestion is just what I need with the limited time I have to prepare.


zenken Smiley Smiley


It is hardly a great achievement to be "a shade better" after playing 3. Bb5.  Also there are many ways of playing against 3...f5 that leave White "a shade better."  There is only one serious challenge to Black's conception, and that is 4. Nc3.
  

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Re: Anyone got a good line against the RL Schliema
Reply #4 - 08/01/06 at 13:22:01
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Jonathan,

Many thanks for your idea : 1e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Bxc6 !?

I think this will suit me fine as I am very strong in the endgame and it will not suit
a lot of the juniors in the Major Open. I love to torture junior players this way.

After, the natural 4...dxc6 5.Nc3 white  seems a shade better already, I mean I am just going to win that
sickly looking pawn on e5 at some stage, aren't I ?

After 4...bxc6 5.0-0 ! is a brilliant suggestion, I can't see a good move for Black !

Thank you very much.

Markovitch - thanks also for drawing my attention to your previous posts, but I feel Jonathan's
suggestion is just what I need with the limited time I have to prepare.


zenken Smiley Smiley
  
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Markovich
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Re: Anyone got a good line against the RL Schliema
Reply #3 - 07/31/06 at 12:04:52
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See here:  http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1079885115/30#30

You'll find that on this site, it always pays to look back.
  

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