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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Solid Defense Against Grob !? (Read 17156 times)
MNb
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #17 - 09/14/06 at 04:24:13
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I hardly can believe, that 1.g4 d5 2.Bg2 Bxg4 3.c4 dxc4 4.Bxb7 Nd7 5.Bc6 is better than 5.Bxa8. Black can leave the rook a8 en prise and just develop: 5.Bc6 e5 6.Nf3 Bd6.
I have some doubts on 3...d4 4.Bxb7 Nd7 5.Bxa8 Qxa8 6.f3 d3 7.Nc3 e6 8.Ne4 Ne5 9.Qa4+. The nice thing of the gambit with 3...dxc4 is, that White has problems pushing his central pawns. He should have done that on the first move  Cheesy.

Cuypers,D - Winants,H [A00]
Leuven (1), 1994
1.g4 d5 2.Bg2 Bxg4 3.c4 dxc4 4.Bxb7 Nd7 5.Bxa8 Qxa8 6.f3 Ngf6 7.Nc3 e5 8.h3 Be6 9.e3 Nc5 10.h4 Be7 11.Nh3 Nd3+ 12.Ke2 Nh5 13.Rg1 Bxh3 14.Qa4+ Bd7 15.Qxc4 Nxc1+ 16.Raxc1 Bc6 17.Rcf1 0–0 18.Qg4 Qb7 19.Qxh5 f5 20.e4 Qa6+ 21.Kd1 Be8 0–1

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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #16 - 09/13/06 at 16:08:39
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Hi, guys, I'm new here but I'd rather not get deleted. I had seen this and a similar idea actually by reading Wikipedia's page on "Grob's Attack," which says, "Perhaps the most interesting response for Black is the ultra-aggressive Romford Counter-Gambit, devised around 1980 by English player Nick Pelling: 1.g4 d5 2.Bg2 Bxg4 3.c4 d4!? 4.Bxb7 Nd7 5.Bxa8 Qxa8 6.f3 d3! Black now has a long sequence of natural moves to develop and attack with (e6 / Ngf6 / Ne5 / Be7 / O-O), while White sits paralyzed on the back rank. Michael Basman proposed a similar gambit with 3. ... dxc4."

What are the objective merits of this version of the exchange sacrifice?
  
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #15 - 09/12/06 at 15:06:14
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kylemeister wrote on 09/11/06 at 16:34:25:
Markovich wrote on 09/11/06 at 16:04:10:
OstapBender wrote on 08/10/06 at 03:15:04:
Markovich wrote on 08/09/06 at 12:51:16:
Anyone, leaving aside solidity, one very enterprising idea against 1. g4 is 1...d5  2. Bg2 Bxg4  3. c4 dxc4  4. Bxb7 Nd7  5. Bxa8 Qxa8.  I opine that Black has good compensation for the exchange.

This is an interesting line; Black's compensation looks quite good.

What do you think about 5.Bc6, instead of accepting the exchange sacrifice?  Here I think White seems to have good compensation for the pawn.


I don't know.  Is the pin all that troublesome?  Doesn't Black have more pieces out?  


I would think that Black has the compensation as well as the pawn (at least temporarily) ...

I posted this a while ago - I'll take another look and see if I can remember why I thought White had compensation for the pawn. Undecided

current position

At least part of the compensation comes from the fact that Black's extra c4-pawn is weak and likely to fall soon.  Although Black might not be bad here, I hardly think he is more than equal (i.e., to say that "Black has the compensation as well as the pawn" is overstating it - just a tad Grin).

Anyway, I thought it was a nice exchange sacrifice which White ought to decline.
  

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kylemeister
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #14 - 09/11/06 at 16:34:25
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Markovich wrote on 09/11/06 at 16:04:10:
OstapBender wrote on 08/10/06 at 03:15:04:
Markovich wrote on 08/09/06 at 12:51:16:
Anyone, leaving aside solidity, one very enterprising idea against 1. g4 is 1...d5  2. Bg2 Bxg4  3. c4 dxc4  4. Bxb7 Nd7  5. Bxa8 Qxa8.  I opine that Black has good compensation for the exchange.

This is an interesting line; Black's compensation looks quite good.

What do you think about 5.Bc6, instead of accepting the exchange sacrifice?  Here I think White seems to have good compensation for the pawn.


I don't know.  Is the pin all that troublesome?  Doesn't Black have more pieces out?  


I would think that Black has the compensation as well as the pawn (at least temporarily) ...

I always figured that if someone played the Grob against me I would probably play 1. g4 d5 2. Bg2 c6 3. g5 (or 3. h3) e5.  I remember some book on the Grob giving a few more moves after 3. g5 (including White playing h4) and saying, "White's advanced kingside pawns give him good attacking chances," where I would be inclined to say something like "Black is better due to White's overextended kingside pawns."
  
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #13 - 09/11/06 at 16:04:10
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OstapBender wrote on 08/10/06 at 03:15:04:
Markovich wrote on 08/09/06 at 12:51:16:
Anyone, leaving aside solidity, one very enterprising idea against 1. g4 is 1...d5  2. Bg2 Bxg4  3. c4 dxc4  4. Bxb7 Nd7  5. Bxa8 Qxa8.  I opine that Black has good compensation for the exchange.

This is an interesting line; Black's compensation looks quite good.

What do you think about 5.Bc6, instead of accepting the exchange sacrifice?  Here I think White seems to have good compensation for the pawn.


I don't know.  Is the pin all that troublesome?  Doesn't Black have more pieces out?
  

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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #12 - 09/11/06 at 15:57:13
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Gambit wrote on 09/10/06 at 04:05:37:
Try the Zilbermints Grob, 1 g4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3!


Yes, Zilbermints is a noted theoretician who has had many variations named after him.  In his imaginination.  But I do not say that his ideas are all bad, so perhaps the "Zilbermints Grob" is a good idea.
  

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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #11 - 09/10/06 at 04:05:37
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Try the Zilbermints Grob, 1 g4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3!
  
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #10 - 08/10/06 at 03:15:04
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Markovich wrote on 08/09/06 at 12:51:16:
Anyone, leaving aside solidity, one very enterprising idea against 1. g4 is 1...d5  2. Bg2 Bxg4  3. c4 dxc4  4. Bxb7 Nd7  5. Bxa8 Qxa8.  I opine that Black has good compensation for the exchange.

This is an interesting line; Black's compensation looks quite good.

What do you think about 5.Bc6, instead of accepting the exchange sacrifice?  Here I think White seems to have good compensation for the pawn.
  

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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #9 - 08/09/06 at 13:55:16
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I must admit, there is a "hole" in my opening repertoire, in that I have no defence to this either. I suspect I would find myself playing 1...d5 in an OTB game.
  
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #8 - 08/09/06 at 12:51:16
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Dinomike100 wrote on 08/09/06 at 09:37:09:
Oh I fully agree with you guys about the Grob... it's just that it's one of those openings where your opponent probably plays it much more often than you do.  Thanks for the articles and ideas.


Tarrasch called g2-g4 "the suicide move," but these days it's played so often, heck, why not just play it on move one?

Still, I think it's a little wierd to ask about a "solid defense" to such a ridiculous first move:  "Hey, can you guys help me find a solid defense to 1. h4?"

Anyone, leaving aside solidity, one very enterprising idea against 1. g4 is 1...d5  2. Bg2 Bxg4  3. c4 dxc4  4. Bxb7 Nd7  5. Bxa8 Qxa8.  I opine that Black has good compensation for the exchange.
  

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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #7 - 08/09/06 at 09:37:09
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Oh I fully agree with you guys about the Grob... it's just that it's one of those openings where your opponent probably plays it much more often than you do.  Thanks for the articles and ideas.
  
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #6 - 08/09/06 at 09:15:34
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I played the Grob many years ago after getting a book by Claud Bloodgood on it. I was rated about 1600 at the time when you can get away with this rubbish and scored 3/3 with it in tournaments, but two of those were due to Black playing 1. ...d5 2. ...Bg4 and then dropping the Bishop to a Qa4+ trap Cheesy. Ah to be a fish again.

To my wiser eyes, another problem with 1. g4 is the weakening of h4 and f4. So when I faced it myself many years on, I thought a plan involving Ng8-e7-g6 would be the ticket. I played natuaral moves starting with 1. ...e5 (to avoid the long diagonal trickery), 2. ...Bc5 and later followed up with the Knight manouver and won with little difficulty, but then my opponent was much lower rated.


Chess is difficult enough without making it harder for yourself by playing things like 1. g4 Roll Eyes
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #5 - 08/09/06 at 00:50:41
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I realise that certain openings cause various players problems, but the Grob has never been one of those.  There are so many choices for Black that to choose just one and say that is the best of the bunch overlooks the basic problem of the Grob.

The Grob doesn't do enough to control the center.  Strong players and Blitz players (sometimes they're one and the same) can play the Grob occasionally as White because it doesn't lose.  It merely loses the advantage of the first move.  The advantage of the Grob is that it forces players to think for themselves, which is the whole point of playing chess in the first place.

I prefer to play 1...d5.  I know that White has some cool gambits associated with 2.c4, but I don't see those as refutations of Black's play.
  
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #4 - 08/08/06 at 13:39:35
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Well


1g4 d5!? 2.Bg2 Bxg4 is not significant error. I like to take that pawn as it is the only trap in the grob (but not a good one).

3.c4 c6 4. Qb3 Qd7! 5.cxd5 Nf6 and the black position is activ and at least not worse (if not already slightly better). At least here grob players start to think....
  
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #3 - 08/02/06 at 22:28:06
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Here’s the game I was thinking of, which was annotated for ChessPublishing by Tony Kosten. Since it’s not freely available (the Edwards analysis was) I can only give you the moves with a few of Tony's comments but no variations (hopefully, no copyright violations here).  If you subscribe to Flank Openings, you can get the fully annotated game.

Skembris-Mariotti
Budva zt (3), 1981
[annotated by Tony Kosten for ChessPublishing]

1.g4 e5 2.Bg2 According to Kosten, this may be inaccurate.  He prefers 2.c4.

2...h5 The move recommended by Edwards, but Kosten prefers 2...d5.

3.gxh5 Qg5!? 4.Bf3 Qh4 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.e4?! Bc5 7.d4!? (Here I wonder why not 7.Qe2 right away, forgoing d4 for the moment)

7...Bxd4 8.Qe2 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 Nxh5 “In return for his pawn minus, White seems to have a rotten position!” (Kosten)

10.Be3 Nf4 11.Qb5 Nc6 12.0–0–0 a6 13.Qa4 Qf6 14.Ne2 Ne6 15.Bg4 d6 16.Qb3 Nc5! “This should win.” (Kosten)

17.Bxc5 Qg5+?! 18.Be3 Qxg4 19.Ng3 Rb8 20.Rhg1 Be6 21.c4 Qf3 22.Nf5 Bxf5 23.exf5 Rh7 24.c5! d5 25.Rxd5 Qxf5 26.Rg5 Qe4 27.Bd2 Even here, after some inaccurate play, Black should still win.

The game concluded:
27...Qe2 28.Qg3! Qf1+ 29.Kb2 Qb5+ 30.Kc1 Qf1+ 31.Kb2 b6 32.Rgxe5+! Kf8? 34.Rb3 Rc8? 35.Rxc5 Qe2 36.Be3! 1–0
« Last Edit: 08/03/06 at 00:13:06 by OstapBender »  

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