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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Solid Defense Against Grob !? (Read 17148 times)
Uberdecker
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #32 - 09/19/06 at 16:06:13
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[quote author=Markovich link=1154517513/30#31 date=1158678077]
Absolute baloney.  E.g. positions where Nd5! hanging the knight to an e6 pawn, is the right move against the Hedgehog or the Sicilian [/quote]

In such a line as 1. e4 c5 ; 2. Ktf3 a6?! ; 3. c4 Ktc6 ; 4. d4 cd ; 4. Ktxd4 Ktf6 ; 5. Ktc3 e6 ; 6. Be2 d6 ; 7. 0-0 Be7 ; 8. Be3 Qc7 ; 9. Rc1 0-0?! the answer 10. Ktd5! is designed to achieve positional goals even though it does rely upon a very simple tactic.

[quote] positions where White has pawns on d4 and e4, Black has one on e6 and a Knight on f6, and the right move is d4, following up exd4 with e4-e5 and a kingside attack with pieces[/quote]

I doubt anyone can make any sense of this sentence. Perhaps you should try writing it in latin.

[quote]
(for that matter, practically any situation that calls for kingside attack with pieces); many postions where one side has the advantage but castling is on opposite sides; and a bizillion other positions, call for radical solutions.
[/quote]

In my opinion such attacks require a well thought-out strategy, more than calculating skills, but of course, I never asserted that one can avoid tactics altogether. I refer you to my previous posts, in the hope that no more space will be wasted here.

[quote]
"The clearest win will arise from gradually increasing the pressure," I never heard such high-flown nonsense.  What, until some exasperated kibitzer reaches out and plays the killing stroke for you?
[/quote]

I ask you to review your tone in future posts. Not only is such rudeness uncalled for, it is simply ridiculous to get so over-heated about the Garb.  2. ...Bxg4/3. ...dc gives White a material advantage to hang on to while after 2. ...Ktc6 or 2. ...c6 all he can do is lie down and wait for Black to slowly finish him off. That is all that is to be said here.

                                                                         Best regards,
                                                                               Hubert
  
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Markovich
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #31 - 09/19/06 at 15:01:17
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1154517513/15#27 date=1158595417] When one side has a clear positional advantage, and the other sticks to defending as solidly as possible, the clearest win will arise from gradually increasing the pressure.[/quote]

Absolute baloney.  E.g. positions where Nd5! hanging the knight to an e6 pawn, is the right move against the Hedgehog or the Sicilian; positions where White has pawns on d4 and e4, Black has one on e6 and a Knight on f6, and the right move is d4, following up exd4 with e4-e5 and a kingside attack with pieces (for that matter, practically any situation that calls for kingside attack with pieces); many postions where one side has the advantage but castling is on opposite sides; and a bizillion other positions, call for radical solutions.

"The clearest win will arise from gradually increasing the pressure," I never heard such high-flown nonsense.  What, until some exasperated kibitzer reaches out and plays the killing stroke for you?
  

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Uberdecker
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #30 - 09/18/06 at 21:05:16
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5. ...Bxg4 ; 6. Qxc6+ Bd7 ; 7. Qxc4 is excellent for Black. The Bishop pair is indeed to be valued very highly here. But 3. ...d4 is also good and perhaps even stronger. It seems we are devoting more attention to the Garb then it deserves, but I have one last query :

[quote author=Gambit link=1154517513/0#11 date=1157861137]Try the Zilbermints Grob, 1 g4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3![/quote]

Dear Lev,

 I would be interested in reading your response to the following hypothetical question : If you were forced to play the move 1. e4 and your opponent answered 1. ...d5, which of the following outstandingly strong rejoinders would you choose, 2. d4 or 2. g4 ?
  
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Dinomike100
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #29 - 09/18/06 at 18:52:55
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For the 1. ...d5 2. ...Nc6 line, what if white does this -

1. g4 d5
2. Bg2 Nc6
3. c4 dxc4
4. Bxc6 bxc6
5. Qa4

I know that white is down a pawn and has lost the bishop pair (and now has an extremely weakened kingside and a fairly weakened queenside).  However, black has tripled, isolated pawns.  Black's extra pawn should fall fast and he is left with doubled, isolated pawns.  So would you guys say this is objectively better for black, or is it only worth it if you really value the bishop pair?
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #28 - 09/18/06 at 16:36:33
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1154517513/15#27 date=1158595417] Does anyone know what the official plan of this "main line" is ?
I suspect ...e5, ...Bd6, ...Kte7, ...0-0, ...Be6, ...Ktd7, ...f5 is the consensus...  [/quote]

Well, that's pretty much how I figured I would play (though I don't recall whether I ever saw it in a book etc.).
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #27 - 09/18/06 at 16:03:37
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[quote author=Markovich link=1154517513/15#24 date=1158431892]

It makes no sense to introduced complications if you have a clear win without them.  But merely that you have a positional advantage is not an argument against introducing complications.  It may be that the win lies ONLY down the complicated path.  E.g. 1. e4 e5  2. Nf3 Nc6  4. Bb5 f5  and White can rest on a safe positional advantage with 4. d3.  But 4. Nc3! is the move most likely to produce the full point, and it does happen to introduce complicatons.
[/quote]


I must still disagree here. When one side has a clear positional advantage, and the other sticks to defending as solidly as possible, the clearest win will arise from gradually increasing the pressure.
Of course if the defender lashes out as in the Schliemann, well I'm afraid there's nothing to do but get your hands dirty and start calculating, safe in the knowledge that you should objectively win, since you are not the one who played the dubious move which introduced the complications.
But this has nothing to do with the Garb. 1. g4 threatens absolutely nothing, and Black has no reason to choose complications unless such impatience is an inherent flaw in his chess character.
That said, on a conciliatory note and so I will not be further misunderstood, I should add that I would rather play Black than White after 2. ...Bxg4 ; 3. c4 dc

Just as Tracke, my preference goes to 2. ...Ktc6 ; 3. h3 e5 (as I said with the ultra-simplistic but very effective plan of ...Be6, ...Qd7, ...0-0-0 and ...h5) but I remember seeing 2. ...c6 as a one-move recommendation in various places. Does anyone know what the official plan of this "main line" is ?
I suspect ...e5, ...Bd6, ...Kte7, ...0-0, ...Be6, ...Ktd7, ...f5 is the consensus...  
  
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tracke
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #26 - 09/18/06 at 15:32:59
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Maybe 1.g4?! d5 2.Bg2 Bxg4!? is somewhat better for Black but very complicated?!
As Black I prefer 2...Nc6! what stresses the weakness of white´s dark squares.
The Nc6 is really strong but exchange it with the Bg2 is no good idea, so 3.c4 dxc4! should be good for Black (4.Qa4 Bxg4 5.Qxc4 Nf6 etc.)

tracke  Smiley
  
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Dinomike100
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #25 - 09/17/06 at 01:12:13
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I think that it all comes down to the style of play that one is most comfortable with.  I don't think there is anything wrong with playing in a solid fashion against 1. g4.  The 3. ...dxc4 line looks like it is interesting and definately worth consideration.  

I think the general goal of Grob player is to make a mess of the board.  So the two ways of responding to that are:

1. Let him make a mess of his own pawn structure by playing solidly, with the goal of letting the opponent self destruct by building up a positional advantage
2. Take him up on his offer and play an aggressive response which adds some complications and puts the opponent on the defensive

I think both responses are reasonable and it all comes down to personal style.

Also, I don't think that playing against 1. g4 is quite the same as playing against 1. h4 because 1. h4 doesn't allow a kingside fiancheto, the h pawn doesn't threaten to chase off a possible knight on f6, and the h pawn is further from the center than the g pawn.  Against 1. h4 you can just take control of the center and play both solidly and aggressively at the same time.
« Last Edit: 09/17/06 at 04:56:10 by Dinomike100 »  
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Markovich
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #24 - 09/16/06 at 18:38:12
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1154517513/15#23 date=1158323452][quote author=MNb link=1154517513/15#22 date=1158288011]Sometimes I suspect that it's Überdeker's secret wish to forbid all tactical complications in chess. [/quote]

. But it makes no sense for the side with a positional advantage to seek complications.
[/quote]

It makes no sense to introduced complications if you have a clear win without them.  But merely that you have a positional advantage is not an argument against introducing complications.  It may be that the win lies ONLY down the complicated path.  E.g. 1. e4 e5  2. Nf3 Nc6  4. Bb5 f5  and White can rest on a safe positional advantage with 4. d3.  But 4. Nc3! is the move most likely to produce the full point, and it does happen to introduce complicatons.

The object of this game is to score, not to score in a certain way.  It is merely an objective question, whether 3..dxc4 produces the win more readily than 3...c6.   Also, I'm not sure that the game becomes particularly complicated after 3...dxc4.
  

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Uberdecker
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #23 - 09/15/06 at 12:30:52
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[quote author=MNb link=1154517513/15#22 date=1158288011]Sometimes I suspect that it's Überdeker's secret wish to forbid all tactical complications in chess. [/quote]

Oh no! My secret wishes are being publicly unveiled on the internet. I feel naked as a worm. But MNb's interpretation is a bit exagerated. I have no qualms against resorting to tactics in an inferior position or when faced with the threat of a dull draw in a must-win situation. And of course one is often forced to calculate in order to refute one's opponents' attempts to mix things up. But it makes no sense for the side with a positional advantage to seek complications.
Here I must admit that the two Marks are correct in calling 2. ...Bxg4/3. ...dc a [i]positional[/i] sacrifice, the choice of which does not necessarily require concrete calculation. But at the same time, the position is messy and the middlegame is very likely to be dominated by tactical features.
Here is the essence of my grudge against the sac : after 1. g4 White's Kingside is a shambles. After 3. ...dc the entire board is mess.
  
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MNb
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #22 - 09/15/06 at 02:40:11
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Sometimes I suspect that it's Überdeker's secret wish to forbid all tactical complications in chess.  Grin Or maybe he was so startled by the fact, that I agreed with him on chess in another thread, that he desperately looked for another subject to safely disagree again.  Grin I can understand the latter, as I was very surprised myself.  Wink

Seriously now. Sorry, but I don't see many tactical complications after 1.g4 d5 2.Bg2 Bxg4 3.c4 dxc4 etc. Black sacs an exchange for a pawn and superior central control. His first task is to find optimal active squares for all his pieces. And that is a positional problem.
Black's gambit is certainly not a Two Knights-Traxler, a Slav-Botvinnik or a Najdorf-6.Bg5.

Of course Überdeker's recommendation looks also good. And so does the recommendation of Silman's site. Isn't it nice, that several approaches do lead to the same result? Black has good play after 1.g4 and doesn't need more than 10 minutes study (to keep it pessimistic). For me, I am not going to learn more than the three moves mentioned above.
  

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Markovich
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #21 - 09/14/06 at 15:31:44
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1154517513/15#18 date=1158225613]It never ceases to amaze me that some players are always looking for tactical complications when the game has already been handed to them on a platinum platter. Why stoop down to calculating this stuff? [/quote]

Since no one has offered any calculations here, I am not sure of the point of this remark.  Are you saying that 3...dxc4 is a bad move because White has already commited positional suicide?  If so, I would have to disagree with you, at least until the objective merits of the exchange sacrifice are weighed against Black's supposed advantages after a pedestrian move (I do not say a bad one) such as 3...c6. 
  

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Markovich
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #20 - 09/14/06 at 15:24:23
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MNb wrote on 09/14/06 at 04:24:13:
The nice thing of the gambit with 3...dxc4 is, that White has problems pushing his central pawns.



Yes.  One of the points of 3...dxc4 is that it weakens the the light squares of White's queenside.  To me, 3...dxc4 and the subsequent exchange sacrifice looks like a very fundamental challenge to the Grob.
  

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Klick
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #19 - 09/14/06 at 09:27:14
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Grin

I agree.
  

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Uberdecker
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Re: Solid Defense Against Grob !?
Reply #18 - 09/14/06 at 09:20:13
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It never ceases to amaze me that some players are always looking for tactical complications when the game has already been handed to them on a platinum platter. Why stoop down to calculating this stuff? White has destroyed his own position on the 1rst move, he doesn't need any help from his opponent.
For the creator of this thread, who himself asked for a [i]solid[/i] method of handling the Garb, we might point to the "theoretical main line" 1. ...d5 ; 2. Bg2 c6 ; 3. h3 e5 as well as 2. ...Ktc6 ; 3. h3 e5 with the simple and effective plan of ...Be6, ...Qd7, ...0-0-0 and ...h5.
  
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