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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) The Berlin Endgame (Read 4864 times)
Strategy_Rules
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Re: The Berlin Endgame
Reply #12 - 08/14/06 at 22:55:05
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Quote:
 With d3, c3, d4, White is just a tempo down


lol

You probably meant the variation 5...d6 6.d4, but you cannot say this is a lost of tempo, because white can win a pawn this way!
6...exd4 7.cxd4 Bb4+ 8.Kf1 was already played in a few correspondance chess games, all won by white. Now 9.Qa4 is very unpleasent for black, so black had to give a pawn but did not get enough compensation. (In my view 8.Bd2 is good for a small advantage too.)

I do not know your rating, but the variation with 0-0-0 is indeed very dangerous for black after he weakened the kingside with h6,g5. White will play h2-h4 and hunt your king  Smiley
  
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Markovich
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Re: The Berlin Endgame
Reply #11 - 08/14/06 at 20:30:07
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Strategy_Rules wrote on 08/14/06 at 20:03:17:
Hello !

GM Tony Kosten wrote:

Quote:
I still play it as Black OTB, though, because almost all my opponents play 4 d3 or 4 Qe2, after which Black has already equalised!   


Is this really so easy after 4.d3 ? Many top GMs play this with white....
I like 4.d3 Bc5 (I saw that you played this with black) 5.c3 0-0 [5...d6 6.d4!] 6.Bg5 for white, following the game Anand-Topalov, WCC 2005. Seirawan suggested 11.Qe2, which looks like an improvement. White intends to castle long here. I prefer white after Qe2, too.


I don't think that this is a serious challenge to Black, by any means.  I know something about the Berlin Classical (3...Nf6  4. 0-0 Bc5), and 5. d3 is considered a nowhere rejoinder.  With d3, c3, d4, White is just a tempo down.  Queenside castles?!  Well whoopee, but I doubt that many Blacks will shake in their shoes.
  

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Strategy_Rules
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Re: The Berlin Endgame
Reply #10 - 08/14/06 at 20:03:17
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Hello !

GM Tony Kosten wrote:

Quote:
I still play it as Black OTB, though, because almost all my opponents play 4 d3 or 4 Qe2, after which Black has already equalised!   


Is this really so easy after 4.d3 ? Many top GMs play this with white....
I like 4.d3 Bc5 (I saw that you played this with black) 5.c3 0-0 [5...d6 6.d4!] 6.Bg5 for white, following the game Anand-Topalov, WCC 2005. Seirawan suggested 11.Qe2, which looks like an improvement. White intends to castle long here. I prefer white after Qe2, too.
  
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chessy
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Re: The Berlin Endgame
Reply #9 - 08/07/06 at 13:32:24
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The Berline endgame is very facinating to me. Bascily because I realy do not understand it  Huh

I definitly would buy a book which would explain the hiden ideas and resources in this sort of positions Cheesy
  
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Re: The Berlin Endgame
Reply #8 - 08/07/06 at 12:01:11
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John,

There are several good online databases, such as http://www.chesslive.de/ , http://www.chesslab.com/http://www.chessgames.com/ and http://www.newinchess.com/NICBase/Default.aspx?PageID=400

From chesslive you can get the pgn from marking a game with * and then click "View * as pgn". Note that you have to scroll up to see the notation. You can the copy and paste here or to a textfile you call 'anything'.pgn.

The games are surely included in TWIC game section.
  

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ano
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Re: The Berlin Endgame
Reply #7 - 08/07/06 at 02:10:53
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Suffering?

Possibly. Seems Alekhine is in same boat.

John what openings can Black play which don't result in suffering?Could it be only Petroff, Najdorf and Taimanov are sound. May be Caro or French? Or are you finding the Sveshnikov also to be okay- how is that book coming along?
  
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Markovich
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Re: The Berlin Endgame
Reply #6 - 08/03/06 at 11:51:18
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IMJohnCox wrote on 08/03/06 at 11:32:24:
'Suffering' - the essence of the opening, surely? We are not put on earth to be happy, you know.


This remark is highly consistent with your espousal of Alekhine's Defense.
  

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IMJohnCox
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Re: The Berlin Endgame
Reply #5 - 08/03/06 at 11:32:24
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How'd you do that, then? (or are all these games on TWIC or somewhere anyway?)

'Suffering' - the essence of the opening, surely? We are not put on earth to be happy, you know.
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: The Berlin Endgame
Reply #4 - 08/03/06 at 11:00:08
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Can we ban any games that come directly from the NIC database in future, it is annoying having to try to work out whether it was a piece that moved, and if so, which one! Can't you download them as PGN and then attach them, perhaps? Roll Eyes
Anyway, I think the Berlin might be suffering a bit at the moment, I beat Vadim Milov quite easily in the Freestyle event (with White, although we were both using computers) a little while ago.
I still play it as Black OTB, though, because almost all my opponents play 4 d3 or 4 Qe2, after which Black has already equalised! Smiley
  
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ano
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Re: The Berlin Endgame
Reply #3 - 08/03/06 at 07:30:51
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I have not seen the game mentioned by John but I must admit my impression is the opposite. For example (sorry about the notation but the games are on the NIC database):

     
RL 7.4.9 (C67)
White player  Alexander Grischuk      RUS      2717
Black player  Viswanathan Anand      IND      2792
Monte Carlo Blind 2006 (5)            1-0
Source:      -            Download as PGN
1.e4 e5 2.f3 c6 3.b5 f6 4.O-O xe4 5.d4 d6 6.xc6 dxc6 7.dxe5 f5 8.xd8+ xd8 9.c3 e7 10.h3 f5 11.d4 g6 12.f4 c5 13.f3 xc2 14.f2 g6 15.g4 f5 16.e3 b6 17.d1+ c8 18.h4 b7 19.fd2 fxg4 20.hxg4 e8 21.f5 c6 22.f3 e7 23.d5 f8 24.xe7 xe7 25.g5 xf5 26.f1 xe3 27.xf8 g6 28.xa8 xa8 29.e6 xg4 30.e7 f6 31.e6 e8 32.f8 f7 33.xh7 d6 34.g5 g6 35.e6 b7 36.g2 e8 37.xg7 b5 38.f2 a5 39.f8 c4 40.e8

     
RL 7.4.13 (C67)
White player  Viswanathan Anand      IND      2803
Black player  Veselin Topalov      BUL      2804
Leon rapid 2006 (2)            1-0
Source:      -            Download as PGN
1.e4 e5 2.f3 c6 3.b5 f6 4.O-O xe4 5.d4 d6 6.xc6 dxc6 7.dxe5 f5 8.xd8+ xd8 9.c3 e8 10.h3 e7 11.e1 g6 12.d2 e7 13.ad1 f8 14.d4 c5 15.b3 b6 16.e3 h5 17.d2 e6 18.e4 xe3 19.xe3 b6 20.d4 xd4 21.xd4 c5 22.d2 f5 23.g5 e7 24.f3 e6 25.xe6 xe6 26.fd3 xe5 27.e3+ f6 28.d7 hf8 29.xc7 g5 30.f1 h4 31.a4 g6 32.ee7 ad8 33.e2 a5 34.c6+ f6 35.xb6 d4 36.b3 c4 37.ee6 cxb3 38.cxb3 f5 39.e3 c8 40.f3+ e4 41.e6+ d5 42.fxf6 c2+ 43.f1 d1+ 44.e1 dd2 45.g1 b2 46.f5+ d4 47.xg5 xf2 48.g4+ d3 49.e5 fc2 50.xa5

Obviously these white wins don't necessarily mean that Black is struggling and the above is only a very small sample, albeit at high level (though rapid and blindfold). In practice I imagine at club level the position is difficult (confusing) for both sides and there are many unanswered questions. Its a pity the book by Esben (Quality Chess) doesn't look like happening.

Do people think that 9... Ke8, 9...Bd7 or the topical 9...Ne7 to be black's most solid defence (or something else)?

Thanks.
     
     
  
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kevinludwig
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Re: The Berlin Endgame
Reply #2 - 08/02/06 at 22:52:23
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I'm going to be very vague here, mostly because I'm at work and so I can't reference the exact game that I have in mind. But didn't Kramnik (and maybe Kasparov before him) play a few games as white where rooks get centralized, knights go to d4 and e4 and pawn gets pushed (sacrificed?) e5-e6, and black has trouble because of king-in-the-middle? Maybe I'll look for the game on chessbase when I get home...
  
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Re: The Berlin Endgame
Reply #1 - 08/02/06 at 13:20:03
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White has good drawing chances after 4.Nc3
  
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IMJohnCox
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The Berlin Endgame
08/02/06 at 12:27:35
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So what's White's front runner against this at the moment? My impression is that he's still pretty much thrashing around and getting nowhere in particular.

Maybe you've just got to pliy, as Sheila Jackson used to say.

If there are any Berlin fans out there, the recent Preujssers-l'Ami game at the Amsterdam Open was an embarrassingly perfect example of what White should be avoiding.
  
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