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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Ruy Lopez - Flohr-Zaitsev 9...Bb7 (Read 20127 times)
Matemax
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Flohr-Zaitsev 9...Bb7
Reply #14 - 09/02/13 at 07:53:50
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tony37 wrote on 09/02/13 at 07:01:28:
28...Qc7 as in Houska-Lounek (ICCF, 2010)

Aha - a 1mover - but what's the idea?
  
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tony37
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Flohr-Zaitsev 9...Bb7
Reply #13 - 09/02/13 at 07:01:28
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28...Qc7 as in Houska-Lounek (ICCF, 2010)
  
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Matemax
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Flohr-Zaitsev 9...Bb7
Reply #12 - 09/02/13 at 03:41:33
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tony37 wrote on 09/01/13 at 21:03:09:
Matemax wrote on 01/26/11 at 16:23:49:
F22 wrote on 01/26/11 at 14:54:32:
[quote author=506C6B7E6F5D7A717B7A6D1F0 link=1154803526/1#1 date=1154810627]
17. ... c4 18. axb5 axb5 19. Nd4 Qb6 20. Nf5 Ne5 21. Rg3 g6 22. Nf3 Ned3 even Kasparov said he could not find anything for White.

A good start is to look at 23.Rf1!? here - looks strange but has its strengths  Wink

23...Rxe4 is the move here (white scores 100% after 23...Kh7? 24.Qd2) and after 24.Nxh6+ Bxh6 25.Bxh6 Ra1 26.Qd2 Rxb1 27.Rxb1 Nxd5 I don't think white has anything



Any improvements for Black after 28.Rf1?
  
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tony37
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Flohr-Zaitsev 9...Bb7
Reply #11 - 09/01/13 at 21:03:09
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Matemax wrote on 01/26/11 at 16:23:49:
F22 wrote on 01/26/11 at 14:54:32:
[quote author=506C6B7E6F5D7A717B7A6D1F0 link=1154803526/1#1 date=1154810627]
17. ... c4 18. axb5 axb5 19. Nd4 Qb6 20. Nf5 Ne5 21. Rg3 g6 22. Nf3 Ned3 even Kasparov said he could not find anything for White.

A good start is to look at 23.Rf1!? here - looks strange but has its strengths  Wink

23...Rxe4 is the move here (white scores 100% after 23...Kh7? 24.Qd2) and after 24.Nxh6+ Bxh6 25.Bxh6 Ra1 26.Qd2 Rxb1 27.Rxb1 Nxd5 I don't think white has anything
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Flohr-Zaitsev 9...Bb7
Reply #10 - 01/26/11 at 16:23:49
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F22 wrote on 01/26/11 at 14:54:32:
[quote author=506C6B7E6F5D7A717B7A6D1F0 link=1154803526/1#1 date=1154810627]
17. ... c4 18. axb5 axb5 19. Nd4 Qb6 20. Nf5 Ne5 21. Rg3 g6 22. Nf3 Ned3 even Kasparov said he could not find anything for White.

A good start is to look at 23.Rf1!? here - looks strange but has its strengths  Wink
  
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F22
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Flohr-Zaitsev 9...Bb7
Reply #9 - 01/26/11 at 14:54:32
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OstapBender wrote on 08/05/06 at 20:43:47:
The former move, I think, was the original way of playing the Zaitsev and fits well with the idea of  focusing on queenside counterplay.  The latter move is a more modern interpretation of the Zaitsev line which is more popular today.  Presumably this move arose when White found a good antidote(s) to 17…c4.

A final note: iirc, the Zaitsev line is currently under a cloud, and there is a need to find improvements in Black's play.  Having said that, it is still one of my favorite lines against the Ruy Lopez - because it is so sharp and unbalanced.  I like to believe that Black's play will be improved and the Zaitsev will bounce back.


Actually I thought it was the other way around, that 17. ... f5 was problematic for Black and that 17. ... c4 was sounder.

And why do you think Zaitsev is under a cloud? After 17. ... c4 18. axb5 axb5 19. Nd4 Qb6 20. Nf5 Ne5 21. Rg3 g6 22. Nf3 Ned3 even Kasparov said he could not find anything for White.
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Flohr-Zaitsev 9...Bb7
Reply #8 - 04/16/10 at 04:29:58
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Thanks for the idea. In online database 13.Bf4 is third move by number of games but first by score (75%) last played 2006.

Black players mostly prefer 13...d5 and then 14.e5 is slightly better for white according to engines, second choice is your sideline 13...Nc4 14.b3.

After cramping move 13.d5 seems that black will have some strategical problems but according to engines position is equal.
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Flohr-Zaitsev 9...Bb7
Reply #7 - 04/16/10 at 03:28:21
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joakimvitriol wrote on 04/16/10 at 03:16:15:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 b5 5. Bb3 Nf6 6. O-O Be7 7. Re1 O-O 8. h3 d6 9. c3 Bb7 10. d4 exd4 11. cxd4 Na5 12. Bc2 c5:
http://www.chessvideos.tv/bimg/8syhbbij89og.png
Is this sideline any good for black? Should white close the center with 13. d5 or there is something better?



I haven't checked the theory of this, but isn't 13.Bf4 cd4 (13...Nc4 14.b3) 14.Nd4 slightly better for White? Black's typical liberating break ...d5 is well met by e5.
  

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Re: Ruy Lopez - Flohr-Zaitsev 9...Bb7
Reply #6 - 04/16/10 at 03:16:15
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1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 b5 5. Bb3 Nf6 6. O-O Be7 7. Re1 O-O 8. h3 d6 9. c3 Bb7 10. d4 exd4 11. cxd4 Na5 12. Bc2 c5:

Is this sideline any good for black? Should white close the center with 13. d5 or there is something better?

  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Flohr-Zaitsev 9...Bb7
Reply #5 - 08/08/06 at 13:57:56
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I'm not sure 12 ... h6 is really forced. I understand the move as a combined waiting/prophylax move. Black want to wait with exd4 until white is committed to Bc2 so he can hit the bishop with tempo with ... Nb4 forcing the bishop to retreat to b1. There is certainly useful to prevent Ng5 which may become an annoying threat at some point later on.

Another detail: black usually plays the manoever exd4, Nb4, c5 only if white plays a4 because otherwise black doesn't have an oupost on b4. So after 12. Bc2 black usually plays ... g6 (... h6 is also played) and white will continue with b3 and c4 building a pawn wedge in the center. But I have been crazy enough to play 12. Bc2 exd4!? 13. cxd4 Nb4!? 14. Bb1 c5 15. d5 a5 16. a3 Na6 a couple of times.

As of 12. d5 Khalifman treats this positional line in great detail in White Openings According to Anand, vol 2. Here play centers around the control of d5.



  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Flohr-Zaitsev 9...Bb7
Reply #4 - 08/06/06 at 01:23:19
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blueguitar322 wrote on 08/05/06 at 21:53:41:
Ostap,

Thanks, that helps a lot!

A quick question...why does Black need to play 12...h6 and prevent Ng5? NCO gives 12...Re7 13 f4 (13 d5 Na5 =) 13...h6 14 Ndf3 Qe8! slight advantage to Black. What about the 12 a4 move threatens Ng5? I've been looking at the board for a little while and can't see anything. (doesn't say much...) All the generic "we tell you about every opening" books I have stop waaaay before this point.

12...h6 is the standard, most popular move.  12…Qd7 (to meet Ng5 with …Nd8) is an important alternative which has been played by Karpov (and others) and is also mentioned in NCO.  I guess the real question is whether Black can ignore the threat of Ng5 and simply proceed with 12…exd4 13.cxd4 Nb4 meeting 14.Ng5 with 14…Re7 (14…d5 might also be possible, but here I’ll focus on …Re7).  I’m not sure I have a definitive answer (I also was unable to find any guidance in books that I own), but after 15.Nxf7 Rxf7 16.Bxf7+ Kxf7 17.Qb3+ d5 18.e5 Ne8 White seems to be doing very well.  One interesting representative continuation is 19.Ne4 h6 20.Nc5 Bxc5 21.dxc5 Nc6 22.axb5 Nd4 23.Qd3 Nxb5 24.Qf5+ Kg8 25.Qg6 and Black is struggling.  The variation is probably not best play, but it gives a good idea why Black might be willing to play 12...h6 to avoid such a mess.

blueguitar322 wrote on 08/05/06 at 21:53:41:
Another quick question...when White closes off the center with 12 d5 instead, what is Black's typical strategy involve? I know the knight can go to a5 or c5 (via b8, though it seems that after b2-b4 it ends up on b6), and it seems like White's strategy will revolve around a kingside attack as that's the direction his pieces are pointed. The variation given in NCO ends up in a sort of Boleslavsky Hole type pawn formation after a pawn exchange on c6...does Black seek counterplay down the c-file like in the Najdorf or Sveshnikov?

The knight usually retreats to b8 then comes back into play via d7.  Black needs to play …c6 in order to free the Bb7 and, although White might play directly for a kingside attack, the struggle often revolves around control of the vacated d5-square (after dxc6).  As you have astutely pointed out, there are some definite analogies to Nadjorf and Sveshnikov positions.  The battle for the d5-square is another one of these analogies.
  

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Re: Ruy Lopez - Flohr-Zaitsev 9...Bb7
Reply #3 - 08/05/06 at 21:53:41
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Ostap,

Thanks, that helps a lot!

A quick question...why does Black need to play 12...h6 and prevent Ng5? NCO gives 12...Re7 13 f4 (13 d5 Na5 =) 13...h6 14 Ndf3 Qe8! slight advantage to Black. What about the 12 a4 move threatens Ng5? I've been looking at the board for a little while and can't see anything. (doesn't say much...) All the generic "we tell you about every opening" books I have stop waaaay before this point.

Another quick question...when White closes off the center with 12 d5 instead, what is Black's typical strategy involve? I know the knight can go to a5 or c5 (via b8, though it seems that after b2-b4 it ends up on b6), and it seems like White's strategy will revolve around a kingside attack as that's the direction his pieces are pointed. The variation given in NCO ends up in a sort of Boleslavsky Hole type pawn formation after a pawn exchange on c6...does Black seek counterplay down the c-file like in the Najdorf or Sveshnikov?

Dave
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Flohr-Zaitsev 9...Bb7
Reply #2 - 08/05/06 at 21:18:23
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My impression (though I'm far from an expert on it) is that the Flohr-Zaitsev is holding its own.  With regard to the 17...c4 line, I recall a striking win for White almost a year ago (Anand-Adams), but saw some annotations (e.g. by GM David Marciano) suggesting that Black missed a way to reach a draw or an equal position.  A little more recently there was a survey on 17...c4 in the Informant, which had Black reaching an equal or unclear position against any of White's tries.  
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez - Flohr-Zaitsev 9...Bb7
Reply #1 - 08/05/06 at 20:43:47
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blueguitar322 wrote on 08/05/06 at 18:45:24:
After 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 O-O Be7 6 Re1 b5 7 Bb3 d6 8 c3 O-O 9 h3 Bb7, 10 d4 seems to be the best. I'm pretty confident I can explain some of the nuances and move orders and ideas up to this point. But now Nunn's Chess Openings gives

10...Re8
11 Nbd2 Bf8

Here’s a brief answer, based on what I know about this line.

The main idea of Black’s last pair of moves is to exert indirect pressure on the white e4-pawn.  This is illustrated by 12.Nf1? when 12…exd4 13.cxd4 Na5 gives Black an excellent game.  [note: 13…Rxe4?! is met by 14.Bxf7+ (idea: 14...Kxf7 15.Ng5+) and 13…Nxe4? is met by 14.Rxe4! Rxe4 15.Ng5 Re7 16.Qh5]

Now White’s main moves are 12.a4 (aggressive) and 12.d5 (positional); 12.a3 and 12.Bc2 are also seen occasionally.

12 a4 h6
Preventing Ng5

13 Bc2 exd4
Black gives up the center in return for queenside counterplay.  This is not Black’s only plan here, but it’s the most aggressive and probably the most popular.

14 cxd4 Nb4
Gaining a tempo by driving back the bishop (which White does not want to exchange) and eyeing the d3-square.  In some Zaitsev games Black is able to establish a strong knight on d3.  For an example of this, see Kasparov-Karpov, Wch match, game 16 1986.

15 Bb1 c5
Mobilizing the queenside pawn majority.

16 d5 Nd7
17 Ra3

Reaching an important branch point.  Black now chooses between
17…c4
and
17…f5
The former move, I think, was the original way of playing the Zaitsev and fits well with the idea of  focusing on queenside counterplay.  The latter move is a more modern interpretation of the Zaitsev line which is more popular today.  Presumably this move arose when White found a good antidote(s) to 17…c4.

A final note: iirc, the Zaitsev line is currently under a cloud, and there is a need to find improvements in Black's play.  Having said that, it is still one of my favorite lines against the Ruy Lopez - because it is so sharp and unbalanced.  I like to believe that Black's play will be improved and the Zaitsev will bounce back.
  

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Ruy Lopez - Flohr-Zaitsev 9...Bb7
08/05/06 at 18:45:24
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Hey all,

I'm trying to help my dad understand openings better, and right now we're working through the Ruy Lopez. Kinda difficult cause I live in FL and he lives in NC Grin (and he's really looking for prose explanations, not variations) but I've been typing up some of my thoughts. I'm trying to explain some of the central Ruy Lopez ideas using the obviously topical Zaitsev 9...Bb7 but I'm not sure I fully understand everything that's going on (a KG guy myself, for better or worse...)

After 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 O-O Be7 6 Re1 b5 7 Bb3 d6 8 c3 O-O 9 h3 Bb7, 10 d4 seems to be the best. I'm pretty confident I can explain some of the nuances and move orders and ideas up to this point. But now Nunn's Chess Openings gives

10...Re8
11 Nbd2 Bf8
12 a4 h6
13 Bc3 exd4
14 cxd4 Nb4
15 Bb1 c5
16 d5 Nd7
17 Ra3 f5


as the main line. A lot of these ideas make sense (Black moving rook to e-file, possibly preparing g6/Bg7 fianchetto supporting e5, White's Nb1-d2-f1-g3 maneuver, Nb4 chasing the bishop and preparing 15...c5, etc) but I know there's a lot of things that are too subtle for a few quick looks at NCO to give me. There's also a lot of alternatives that seem to be on equal footing, others which aren't popular and I'm not sure why, etc.

Anyone willing to help me out? This is probably elementary for a lot of 1 e4 and 1...e5 players out there, I just don't have much experience with this one.

Dave
  
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