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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Ruy Lopez with black (Read 10160 times)
TopNotch
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Re: Ruy Lopez with black
Reply #24 - 10/02/06 at 13:03:43
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TalJechin wrote on 10/02/06 at 12:52:25:
Alkelele wrote on 10/02/06 at 06:19:42:
I read some comments of Aagaard about that game in a Danish magazine. Point was, after 2.Nf3 Urban always played the Petroff, and he played it hard for a draw. So Aagaard improvised with 2.Bg5, got a lousy position after the opening, and then outplayed his opponent as easy as nothing, according to his own words Wink


Thanks, that sounds plausible - it's a fair gamble that a player yearning for the draw may not want to play the critical Bc5.

But the episode is quite an advertisement for the Petroff!


It is common for players to avoid each others pet lines and or defences, so one should not read too much into this. For example GM Chris Ward is rarely allowed to essay his favorite Dragon sicilian.

Tops Smiley
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Ruy Lopez with black
Reply #23 - 10/02/06 at 12:52:25
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Alkelele wrote on 10/02/06 at 06:19:42:
I read some comments of Aagaard about that game in a Danish magazine. Point was, after 2.Nf3 Urban always played the Petroff, and he played it hard for a draw. So Aagaard improvised with 2.Bg5, got a lousy position after the opening, and then outplayed his opponent as easy as nothing, according to his own words Wink


Thanks, that sounds plausible - it's a fair gamble that a player yearning for the draw may not want to play the critical Bc5.

But the episode is quite an advertisement for the Petroff!
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Ruy Lopez with black
Reply #22 - 10/02/06 at 07:21:47
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Alkelele wrote on 10/02/06 at 06:19:42:
TalJechin wrote on 09/30/06 at 17:19:20:
I wonder what improvement Aagaard had prepared when he repeated the opening 3 years later? In '95 the Sigeman tm was almost brand new and practically all players within commuting distance went there, so he probably saw Vescovi's loss live.

Maybe 4...Bc5 5.Bb3 is sounder, but I don't see why he'd go looking for that position.

Aagaard,J (2420) - Urban,K (2485) [C20]
Groningen op Groningen (8), 28.12.1998

1.e4 e5 2.Bb5 c6 3.Ba4 Nf6 4.Qe2 Be7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.0-0 Re8 7.d3 d6 8.c3 Nbd7 9.Bc2 Nf8 10.d4 Ng6 11.Rd1 Qc7 12.Na3 exd4 13.cxd4 Bf8 14.Nd2 Bd7 15.Qe3 c5 16.dxc5 dxc5 17.Nf1 c4 18.Qg3 Qc6 19.f3 b5 20.Nb1 b4 21.Qf2 Be6 22.Be3 Ne5 23.Nbd2 Nfd7 24.Qg3 Bc5 25.Kh1 f6 26.h3 Rad8 27.f4 Nd3 28.Nxc4 Nxf4 29.Na5 Qb6 30.Bxf4 Qxa5 31.Bc7 Qa6 32.Bxd8 Rxd8 33.Bb3 Kh8 34.Qc7 Bb6 35.Qc6 Bxb3 36.axb3 1-0


I read some comments of Aagaard about that game in a Danish magazine. Point was, after 2.Nf3 Urban always played the Petroff, and he played it hard for a draw. So Aagaard improvised with 2.Bb5, got a lousy position after the opening, and then outplayed his opponent as easy as nothing, according to his own words Wink


Sounds plausible to me, and further confirms the 'status' of 2.Bb5.

What was MetFan thinking?  Huh

Tops  Smiley
  

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Alkelele
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Re: Ruy Lopez with black
Reply #21 - 10/02/06 at 06:19:42
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TalJechin wrote on 09/30/06 at 17:19:20:
I wonder what improvement Aagaard had prepared when he repeated the opening 3 years later? In '95 the Sigeman tm was almost brand new and practically all players within commuting distance went there, so he probably saw Vescovi's loss live.

Maybe 4...Bc5 5.Bb3 is sounder, but I don't see why he'd go looking for that position.

Aagaard,J (2420) - Urban,K (2485) [C20]
Groningen op Groningen (8), 28.12.1998

1.e4 e5 2.Bb5 c6 3.Ba4 Nf6 4.Qe2 Be7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.0-0 Re8 7.d3 d6 8.c3 Nbd7 9.Bc2 Nf8 10.d4 Ng6 11.Rd1 Qc7 12.Na3 exd4 13.cxd4 Bf8 14.Nd2 Bd7 15.Qe3 c5 16.dxc5 dxc5 17.Nf1 c4 18.Qg3 Qc6 19.f3 b5 20.Nb1 b4 21.Qf2 Be6 22.Be3 Ne5 23.Nbd2 Nfd7 24.Qg3 Bc5 25.Kh1 f6 26.h3 Rad8 27.f4 Nd3 28.Nxc4 Nxf4 29.Na5 Qb6 30.Bxf4 Qxa5 31.Bc7 Qa6 32.Bxd8 Rxd8 33.Bb3 Kh8 34.Qc7 Bb6 35.Qc6 Bxb3 36.axb3 1-0


I read some comments of Aagaard about that game in a Danish magazine. Point was, after 2.Nf3 Urban always played the Petroff, and he played it hard for a draw. So Aagaard improvised with 2.Bg5, got a lousy position after the opening, and then outplayed his opponent as easy as nothing, according to his own words Wink
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Ruy Lopez with black
Reply #20 - 09/30/06 at 17:19:20
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I wonder what improvement Aagaard had prepared when he repeated the opening 3 years later? In '95 the Sigeman tm was almost brand new and practically all players within commuting distance went there, so he probably saw Vescovi's loss live.

Maybe 4...Bc5 5.Bb3 is sounder, but I don't see why he'd go looking for that position.

Aagaard,J (2420) - Urban,K (2485) [C20]
Groningen op Groningen (8), 28.12.1998

1.e4 e5 2.Bb5 c6 3.Ba4 Nf6 4.Qe2 Be7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.0-0 Re8 7.d3 d6 8.c3 Nbd7 9.Bc2 Nf8 10.d4 Ng6 11.Rd1 Qc7 12.Na3 exd4 13.cxd4 Bf8 14.Nd2 Bd7 15.Qe3 c5 16.dxc5 dxc5 17.Nf1 c4 18.Qg3 Qc6 19.f3 b5 20.Nb1 b4 21.Qf2 Be6 22.Be3 Ne5 23.Nbd2 Nfd7 24.Qg3 Bc5 25.Kh1 f6 26.h3 Rad8 27.f4 Nd3 28.Nxc4 Nxf4 29.Na5 Qb6 30.Bxf4 Qxa5 31.Bc7 Qa6 32.Bxd8 Rxd8 33.Bb3 Kh8 34.Qc7 Bb6 35.Qc6 Bxb3 36.axb3 1-0
  
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Willempie
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Re: Ruy Lopez with black
Reply #19 - 09/30/06 at 13:00:30
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TopNotch wrote on 09/30/06 at 05:51:09:
[Event "?"]
[Site "Malmo"]
[Date "1995.??.??"]
[White "Vescovi,Giovanni"]
[Black "Sokolov,Ivan"]
[Round "3"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C20"]

1. e4 e5 2. Bb5? c6! 3. Ba4 Nf6 4. Qe2 Bc5 5. Nf3 d5 6. exd5 O-O 7. Nxe5 Re8 8. c3 Bxf2+ 9. Kf1
Bg4 10. Qxf2 Rxe5 11. Kg1 Qe7  0-1


Surely this must rank as one of Vescovi's worse tournament losses, I don't think he ever ventured the Portuguese Opening in a serious game after that.

Ouch this is getting creamed in 19th century style Shocked
  

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TopNotch
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Re: Ruy Lopez with black
Reply #18 - 09/30/06 at 05:51:09
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DieHardMetsFan wrote on 09/15/06 at 20:32:38:
I play some 1...e5, and many different lines at that (Latvian Gambit, Bird Variation of the Ruy Lopez (3...Nd4), Smyslov variation of the Ruy Lopez (3...g6), Petroff, and Philador.  Of course, I also play 1...e6 (my main defense to 1.e4, especially against strong opposition), 1...c6, and 1...d5.

In response to the last post.  You love to face non-Spanish lines, huh?  Well, while I have quit playing 1.e4, at the tail end of my "1.e4-Career", I took up the Portuguese Opening (1.e4 e5 2.Bb5!!).  My results may not be "steller", but I never lost with it (2 wins, 7 draws, no losses).

Watch out 1...e5 players.  It may be that 2.Bb5 stops all winning chances for Black!  Smiley


You must be kidding about the Portuguese Opening as a serious choice for White, although I suppose that he may equalise with careful play.  Grin

According to my database the chief exponent of this Opening, Portuguese IM Rui Damaso, played his last tournament game with it in 2001, achieving a draw in twelve moves. Certainly not a ringing endorsement.

Further proof why this opening is rarely seen in tournament play at a high level can be traced to the following debacle, by the Brazilian GM G. Vescovi:

[Event "?"]
[Site "Malmo"]
[Date "1995.??.??"]
[White "Vescovi,Giovanni"]
[Black "Sokolov,Ivan"]
[Round "3"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C20"]

1. e4 e5 2. Bb5? c6! 3. Ba4 Nf6 4. Qe2 Bc5 5. Nf3 d5 6. exd5 O-O 7. Nxe5 Re8 8. c3 Bxf2+ 9. Kf1
Bg4 10. Qxf2 Rxe5 11. Kg1 Qe7  0-1


Surely this must rank as one of Vescovi's worse tournament losses, I don't think he ever ventured the Portuguese Opening in a serious game after that.

In 1998 IM Andrew Martin did a video on the Portuguese Opening, and in the above variation recommended 4.Nc3 as a possible improvement for White, but after 4...b5 followed by 5...b4 Black is already better.

Conclusion, if you have White and want chances of an advantage then this Opening is a non-starter as it is one of the weakest of all the non-gambit alternatives to the Ruy Lopez.

Tops Smiley




 
  

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Re: Ruy Lopez with black
Reply #17 - 09/19/06 at 13:06:58
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Glenn Flear did an Everyman book on the various Closed Ruy systems a couiple of years ago. I haven't seen it but of course Glenn is a very reliable and conscientious author, so I'm sure it's fine.
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez with black
Reply #16 - 09/19/06 at 12:54:55
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Quite right. Problem with black closed variations is that it is difficult to find anything dedicated. The Anand2 book is good but is from the white side, Shaw's book is good but deals with every variation and superficial as it is a starting out book. Maybe Shirov's dvd is something, otherwise check games by Ponomariov, Shirov, Sokolov and a little less recent Piket. They all play the Chigorin with black.
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Ruy Lopez with black
Reply #15 - 09/18/06 at 10:53:26
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That is why I suggested declining the KG. Almasi and Bacrot arent patzers and if they can be beaten with the bishop's gambit it certainly can't be that bad.


Well, 2...Bc5 is certainly an option for black. But I can't see it deterring players from 2.f4 (or the Bishop's Opening/Vienna) as the main line looks like an Italian game with f4 in, and white usually has to work to achieve that in the Italian...

Anyway, I think we should allow the 'Spaniards' to take back this thread now!  Smiley
  
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Willempie
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Re: Ruy Lopez with black
Reply #14 - 09/18/06 at 09:32:34
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TalJechin wrote on 09/18/06 at 09:14:03:
Willempie wrote on 09/18/06 at 07:30:46:
Berg-Hector June 2001
Berg-Azarov Aug 2001
Berg-Ivanov March 2002
Wink
Using statistics on the KG is a bit odd, the only "recent" top encounter I think is a win of Short against Bacrot 2 years back (funnily with Taljechin's favoured bishop gambit Smiley).


Among +2600s there are 2 more Bishop's Gambits - Ivanchuk-Nikolic Euro CH playoff 1-0 also in 2004 and Morozevich-Almasi in 2002 Amber blindfold, also 1-0. 3 of 3 on that level doesn't sound like a bad opening - so one can wonder why they don't dare to play it in normal long games.

That is why I suggested declining the KG. Almasi and Bacrot arent patzers and if they can be beaten with the bishop's gambit it certainly can't be that bad.

Point taken about Berg btw Smiley
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Ruy Lopez with black
Reply #13 - 09/18/06 at 09:14:03
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Willempie wrote on 09/18/06 at 07:30:46:
Berg-Hector June 2001
Berg-Azarov Aug 2001
Berg-Ivanov March 2002
Wink
Using statistics on the KG is a bit odd, the only "recent" top encounter I think is a win of Short against Bacrot 2 years back (funnily with Taljechin's favoured bishop gambit Smiley).


Among +2600s there are 2 more Bishop's Gambits - Ivanchuk-Nikolic Euro CH playoff 1-0 also in 2004 and Morozevich-Almasi in 2002 Amber blindfold, also 1-0. 3 of 3 on that level doesn't sound like a bad opening - so one can wonder why they don't dare to play it in normal long games.

I don't consider E. Berg a real KGeer, he only dabbled with it a while. And some of his losses suggests that it just didn't fit his style. Or else he just wanted safer openings as he has also gone from the Leningrad Dutch to the Nimzo Indian.
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez with black
Reply #12 - 09/18/06 at 07:30:46
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Berg-Hector June 2001
Berg-Azarov Aug 2001
Berg-Ivanov March 2002
Wink
Using statistics on the KG is a bit odd, the only "recent" top encounter I think is a win of Short against Bacrot 2 years back (funnily with Taljechin's favoured bishop gambit Smiley).
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Ruy Lopez with black
Reply #11 - 09/18/06 at 02:10:41
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Neither do I want to repeat an old debate, which does not belong here. So my answer is very stereotypical: buy the Fascinating King's Gambit. Moreover, in those KG threads Willempie mentions it is very clear which variations I think best for White.
That losing streak consists, as far as I can find out, of exactly one game. What's even more important to me than the results of just one player, I have good results as White - and I am certainly not the only one.

Both players having ELO 2400+: 20 wins for White, 14 draws.
There must be reason, why all topplayers play 2...exf4 when meeting the KG, don't you think?

If Black knows and understands the first 15 moves or more, he probably can limit White's advantage to a lasting endgame edge, like the line Davies recommends. But even then, to paraphraze Markovich' beloved words, I think White's advantage is somewhat bigger than it was in the initial position.

2...Bc5 is for lazy players, who want to have the same repertoire against the Vienna, the Bishop Game and the KG. Against the first two Black has more solid defenses available (especially 2...Nc6 and 2...Nf6). Against the KG I recommend either 2...exf4 followed by a ...g5 variation (eg 3.Bc4 Nc6) or 2...d5 3.exd5 exf4.
  

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Re: Ruy Lopez with black
Reply #10 - 09/17/06 at 12:27:31
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MNb wrote on 09/17/06 at 01:33:18:
Nothing. You have already answered your own question. Black avoids the Evans Gambit and the Bird Attack 4.c3 Nf6 5.b4. But if you don't think them dangerous, then you must by all means play 3...Bc5. That's a matter of logic.
I must repeat again, that the KG would be much more popular on all levels, if 2.f4 Bc5 were Black's best. White has better prospects for a nice advantage than in both the Petrov and the Closed Ruy Lopez.

Not wanting to start a theoretical debate here as there are plenty of KG threads. But which lines would be so dangerous for black? Iirc white can play with either Nc3 which will transpose to a Vienna type of game or with c3. For the former I think Emanual Berg has a nice losing streak and dropped it and for the other I am unaware of any major improvements.
  

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