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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) playable ? 1.e4 ç5 2.ç3 g6 3.d4 çxd 4.çxd d5 (Read 35615 times)
Pessoa
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Re: playable ? 1.e4 ç5 2.ç3 g6 3.d4 çxd 4.çxd d5
Reply #54 - 08/03/07 at 10:21:24
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parisestmagique wrote on 09/25/06 at 13:55:54:
I think one of my opponent found the solution in a week-end tournament : 1.e4 c5 2.c3 g6 3.d4 cxd 4.cxd d5 5.Nc3! dxe4 6.Bc4 with the next move Qb3. It looks crushing for white because after e6 white has d5 !
Any idea to save Black's position ? thanks for your help.


The following game is of some relevance here, I think. It's analysed by Sam Collins in his recent book CHESS EXPLAINED: THE c3 SICILIAN (Gambit 2007):

[Event "6th EICC"]
[Site "Warsaw POL"]
[Date "2005.??.??"]
[White "Pavasovic,D"]
[Black "Del Rio Angelis,S"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2593"]
[BlackElo "2495"]
[ECO "B22"]
[Round "12"]

1. e4 c5 2. c3 g6 3. d4 cxd4 4. cxd4 d5 5. Nc3 dxe4 6. Bc4 Nf6 7. Qb3 e6
8. d5 Qb6! 9. Bb5+ Bd7 10. Be3 Bc5 11. Bxc5 Qxc5 12. dxe6 fxe6 13. Qxe6+ Qe7 14. Qb3 a6
15. Bxd7+ Nbxd7 16. O-O-O Nc5 17. Qc2 O-O 18. f3 Rac8 19. Kb1 b5 20. Nh3 exf3 21. gxf3 Qe3
22. Qg2 Nd3 23. Qd2 Qxd2 24. Rxd2 Ne5 25. f4 Nc4 26. Rd4 Rfe8 27. f5 gxf5 28. Rg1+ Kf8
29. Nf4 Kf7 30. b3 Ne5 31. Rg3 Ng6 32. Ncd5 Nxd5 33. Rxd5 Re1+ 34. Kb2 Ne7 35. Rd7 Rc6
36. Ra7 b4 37. a3 Rec1 38. Rg2 bxa3+ 39. Kxa3 Rc7 40. Rxa6 Ra1+ 41. Ra2 Rxa2+ 42. Kxa2 Rc2+
43. Kb1 Rxh2 44. b4 Rh4 45. Nd3 Nd5 46. Ra7+ Kf6 47. Kc2 Nxb4+ 48. Nxb4 Rxb4 49. Rxh7 Rd4
50. Rh1 Rd7 51. Rf1 Kg5 52. Rg1+ Kh4 53. Rf1 Kg4 54. Rg1+ Kh3 55. Rf1 Rd5 56. Kc3 Kg2
57. Kc4 Re5 58. Rb1 f4 59. Kd3 Re7 60. Rb2+ Kg3 61. Rb8 f3 62. Rg8+ Kf2 63. Kd2 Rd7+
64. Kc2 Ke2 65. Re8+ Kf1 66. Rf8 f2 67. Rf6 Kg2 0-1
« Last Edit: 08/03/07 at 12:17:40 by Pessoa »  
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Dji
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Re: playable ? 1.e4 ç5 2.ç3 g6 3.d4 çxd 4.çxd d5
Reply #53 - 07/27/07 at 22:54:08
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Klick wrote on 10/17/06 at 14:04:02:
[size=12]These lines look ok for black:
1. e4 c5 2. c3 g6 3. d4 cxd4 4. cxd4 d5 5. Nc3 dxe4 6. Bc4 Nc6


B)[/b] 7. Nge2 Nf6 8. Qb3 e6 9. d5 exd5 10. Nxd5 Bg7 11. Bg5 O-O 12. Rd1 Qa5+


and 12.0-0-0 instead of 12.Rd1 risky but... ?
  
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Re: playable ? 1.e4 ç5 2.ç3 g6 3.d4 çxd 4.çxd d5
Reply #52 - 02/13/07 at 15:04:29
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A recently-completed argument in favour of ...Bg7:

IECG - 10 moves per 40 days
[Event "SH-2006-0-00055"]
[Site  "IECG"]
[Date "2006.05.25"]
[Round "-"]
[White ""Lifshitz", "Samuel""]
[Black ""Spanton", "Timothy""]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteELO "2097"]
[BlackELO "2108"]
[EventDate "2006.05.25"]

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3 Bg7 4.d4 cxd4
5.cxd4 d5 6.e5 Bg4 7.Bb5+ Nc6 8.Nc3
Nh6 9.h3 Bxf3 10.Qxf3 O-O 11.Be3 Nf5
12.Rd1 e6 13.O-O f6 14.exf6 Qxf6 15.Bxc6
bxc6 16.g4 Nxe3 17.Qxe3 c5 18.g5 Qf5
19.Ne2 c4 20.Kg2 Rae8 21.f4 Rb8 22.b3
Rb4 23.Rc1 a5 24.Ng3 Qf7 25.Ne2 a4 26.bxc4
dxc4 27.Qe4 Rb2 28.Rxc4 Rxa2 29.Kg3
Qd7 30.Rfc1 Qd5 31.Qxd5 exd5 32.R4c2
Ra3+ 33.Kg4 Rd3 34.Ra2 a3 35.Rc3 Rxc3
36.Nxc3 Ra8 37.Nb1 Bf8 38.Nc3 Kf7 39.f5
Rc8 40.Ne2 Bd6 41.f6 Rb8 42.Nc3 Rb3
43.Ne2 Rb2 44.Nc1 Rxa2 45.Nxa2 Bh2 0-1
  
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Re: playable ? 1.e4 ç5 2.ç3 g6 3.d4 çxd 4.çxd d5
Reply #51 - 10/17/06 at 14:04:02
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These lines look ok for black:
1. e4 c5 2. c3 g6 3. d4 cxd4 4. cxd4 d5 5. Nc3 dxe4 6. Bc4 Nc6

A) 7. Nge2 Nf6 8. Qb3 e6 9.Bg5 Be7 10. O-O O-O 11.Bxf6 Bxf6 12. Nxe4 Bg7

B) 7. Nge2 Nf6 8. Qb3 e6 9. d5 exd5 10. Nxd5 Bg7 11. Bg5 O-O 12. Rd1 Qa5+



C) 7. d5 Ne5 8. Nxe4 Nxc4 9. Qa4+ Bd7 10. Qxc4 Bg7 11. Nf3 Qb6
  
There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Re: playable ? 1.e4 ç5 2.ç3 g6 3.d4 çxd 4.çxd d5
Reply #50 - 10/17/06 at 10:55:43
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Sevenviolets wrote on 10/15/06 at 10:15:03:
7. Qb3 e6 8. d5 exd5 9. Nxd5 Bg7 10. Bg5 O-O 11. Rd1 white is more than ok here.


This is the line I gave as b) and ended with "a slight pull for White" i.e. += I would be more happy with the pieces there.
However, Tim gave the correct defence in his game: 9...Nxd5 10.Bxd5 Qe7 swapping a pair of knights with a similar position to my line c) minus the pair of knights. I think Black is ok here.
  
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Re: playable ? 1.e4 ç5 2.ç3 g6 3.d4 çxd 4.çxd d5
Reply #49 - 10/15/06 at 10:15:03
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parisestmagique, this is extremely interesting idea!

1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. c3 g6 4. cxd4 d5 5. Nc3 dxe4

(5... Bg7? 6. exd5 Nf6 7. Qb3! tranposes to one of the Caro-Kann Panov attack variations, which I consider to be lost for black)

6. Bc4 Nf6 (6... Nc6!? I don´t know how to meet this move yet)

7. Qb3 e6 8. d5 exd5 9. Nxd5 Bg7 10. Bg5 O-O 11. Rd1 white is more than ok here.
  
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Re: playable ? 1.e4 ç5 2.ç3 g6 3.d4 çxd 4.çxd d5
Reply #48 - 10/04/06 at 16:13:41
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[Event "Monarch Assurance 15th"]
[Site "Port Erin"]
[Date "2006.09.23"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Marks,Ian A"]
[Black "Spanton,Timothy"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "B22"]
1.e4 c5 2.c3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.cxd4 d5 5.Nc3 dxe4 6.Bc4 Nf6 7.Qb3 e6 8.d5 exd5
9.Nxd5 Nxd5 10.Bxd5 Qe7 11.Bd2 Nc6 12.Bxc6+ bxc6 13.Qc3 e3 14.Qxc6+ Qd7 15.Qxd7+ Bxd7 16.Bxe3 Bb4+
17.Bd2 Bxd2+ 18.Kxd2 0-0-0 19.Rc1+ Kb7 20.Nf3 Bh3+ 21.Ke2 Bxg2 22.Nd2 Rhe8+ 23.Kd1 Bxh1 0-1
  
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Re: playable ? 1.e4 ç5 2.ç3 g6 3.d4 çxd 4.çxd d5
Reply #47 - 09/25/06 at 20:43:56
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Yes this is an interesting gambit to take advantage of the missing Nf3 (cf. 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3 Bg7 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nc3 dxe4).
I faced it in blitz a few times and don't think it is crushing (even after e6, d5). Of course you won't find anything in the books.
Black has a few playable defences:
a) 6...e6 7.d5 Nf6 (7...exd5 8.Bxd5 is better for White) 8.Bb5+ (8.Qb3 see next line) 8...Bd7 9.dxe6 fxe6 10.Qb3 Bxb5 11.Qxb5+ Qd7 White has compensation for the pawn but hardly more.
b) 6...Nf6 7.Qb3 e6 8.d5 exd5 9.Nxd5 Bg7 10.Bg5 0-0 11.Rd1 Nbd7 12.Ne2 with a slight pull for White.
c) 6...Bg7 7.Qb3 e6 8.d5 exd5 9.Bxd5 (9.Nxd5 and now 9...Nf6 transposes to b) but 9...Nc6 intending Nge7 looks ok for Black.) 9...Qe7 and Black holds on.
  
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Re: playable ? 1.e4 ç5 2.ç3 g6 3.d4 çxd 4.çxd d5
Reply #46 - 09/25/06 at 13:55:54
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I think one of my opponent found the solution in a week-end tournament : 1.e4 c5 2.c3 g6 3.d4 cxd 4.cxd d5 5.Nc3! dxe4 6.Bc4 with the next move Qb3. It looks crushing for white because after e6 white has d5 !
Any idea to save Black's position ? thanks for your help.
  
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Re: playable ? 1.e4 ç5 2.ç3 g6 3.d4 çxd 4.çxd d5
Reply #45 - 09/17/06 at 02:15:36
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1. e4 c5 ; 2. c3 g6 ; 3. d4 cd ; 4. cd d5 ; 5. e5 Ktc6 ; 6. Ktc3 Bg7 ; 7. Be3 f6 ; 8. f4 fe ; 9. fe Kth6 ; 10. Be2 and now 0-0 first looks more precise: 11.Nf3 Bg4 or 11.Qd2 Nf5 12.Bf2 Bh6. If White plays it slowly with 11.h3 then Nf5 12.Bf2 Bh6 13.Nf3 Ne3 looks sufficient for counterplay.
  
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Re: playable ? 1.e4 ç5 2.ç3 g6 3.d4 çxd 4.çxd d5
Reply #44 - 09/16/06 at 15:33:53
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A few examples:

  • 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.a3 Nh6 7.b4 cxd4 8.Bxh6 gxh6 9.cxd4 Bd7 10. Be2 (10.Nc3 is very bad for White) Rc8 11.0-0 Bg7  Here is the Bg7-bishop. I'll take this position as Black any day. Moving the b1-knight loses the d-pawn and 12.Qd2 runs into Nxd4
  • 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Be2 Nh6 7.Bxh6 gxh6 8.Qd2 Bg7 9. 0-0 0-0 10.Na3 cxd 11.cxd Bd7 12.Nc2 and now 12..f6, Bg7 is a good piece
  • 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.a3 f6 7.Bd3 g6 8.0-0 Bg7 or fxe5
  • 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.a3 Nh6 7.b4 cxd4 8.cxd4 Nf5 9.Be3 Nxe3 10.fxe3 g6, and again the bishop will be developed on this diagonal. This happens frequently in this line, not only after a possible Bxh6, but also after ...f6 2.exf6 gxf6 lines.
  • 1. e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.c3 c5 6.f4 Nc6 7.Ndf3 Qb6 8.g3 cxd4 9.cxd4 Bb4+ 10.Kf2 g5 11.fxg5 Ndxe5 12.Nxe5 Nxe5 13.Kg2 Nc6 14.Nf3 Bf8! 15.b3 Bd7 16.Bf4 Bg7
  
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Re: playable ? 1.e4 ç5 2.ç3 g6 3.d4 çxd 4.çxd d5
Reply #43 - 09/16/06 at 11:24:42
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[quote author=Klick link=1156766461/30#42 date=1158296837]F2-f4 or not f2-f4 seems to be the central issue here for whether Bg7 is ok or not.[/quote]

This is a very pertinent remark, and I feel a bit silly for not having mentionned this before : 1. e4 c5 ; 2. c3 g6 ; 3. d4 cd ; 4. cd d5 ; 5. e5 Ktc6 ; 6. Ktc3 Bg7 ; 7. Be3 f6 ; 8. f4 fe ; 9. fe Kth6 ; 10. Be2 Ktf5 ; 11. Bf2 0-0 ; 12. Ktf3 looks promising for White. Anyone got an improvement for Black here?

[quote] The actual fact is that Bg7 in the french can be a quite good piece and is not that uncommon. It can get to g7 in both theoretical lines of the Tarrasch and Advance. From there it pressurizes the white pawn-chain e5-d4 which can be quite annoying for white if the e5-pawn is undermined, for instance by f6. [/quote]

I am not familiar with these lines. Which are they?
  
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Re: playable ? 1.e4 ç5 2.ç3 g6 3.d4 çxd 4.çxd d5
Reply #42 - 09/15/06 at 05:07:17
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Quote:
I suggest a comparison with the Modern defence might be helpful. It was found that instead of 1 e4 g6 2 d4 c6 3 Nc3 Bg7 4 f4 d5 5 e5 etc,  apparently wasting a tempo by 1 e4 g6 2 d4 c6 3 Nc3 d6!? 4 f4 d5!? 5 e5 etc was better, since the bishop is not very effective on g7 when faced by the d4/e5 pawn centre and has better prospects on the a3-f8 diagonal (eventually).

Also compare with the French - I can't think of many lines  in which White has set up the "Advance" centre where it would be appropriate for Black to fianchetto the king's bishop.


Interesting points worth further thought especially your first paragraph Paddy, but I think I for now have a slightly differing view on the subject. I am not very familiar with the Modern defence but I am very familiar with the French which I have been playing for over 10 years.

The actual fact is that Bg7 in the french can be a quite good piece and is not that uncommon. It can get to g7 in both theoretical lines of the Tarrasch and Advance. From there it pressurizes the white pawn-chain e5-d4 which can be quite annoying for white if the e5-pawn is undermined, for instance by f6.

I agree that if white gets f2-f4 in first Bg7 might not be a great piece, but in the Advance French white doesn't get to play this comfortably. I doubt that white gets to play f4 with any advantage in the c3-Sicilian either. F2-f4 or not f2-f4 seems to be the central issue here for whether Bg7 is ok or not.

Quote:
Having said that, I'n not completely sold on Sveshnikov's verdict that it is a clear improvement for White to play 1 e4 c5 2 c3 g6 3 Nf3! Bg7 4 d4 cxd4 5 cxd4 d5 6 e5 - OK, so the bishop is not great at g7, but on the other hand White has committed the knight to f3 early and maybe Black can take advantage of this.


I wouldn't be too worried about my Bg7 here for the very same reasons you mention in your last sentence and I above.

TimS: I feel there certainly is potential to a bishop placed on g7, it  might be the weakened dark squares that give people second thoughts.
  
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Re: playable ? 1.e4 ç5 2.ç3 g6 3.d4 çxd 4.çxd d5
Reply #41 - 09/15/06 at 00:22:42
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TimS wrote on 09/14/06 at 10:42:35:
I've followed all the discussion but there's one thing I still don't understand: why would the Bf8 be better off on e7 than g7? To me, unless there are specific tactical reasons, g7 is by far the betetr square. What am I missing?


I suggest a comparison with the Modern defence might be helpful. It was found that instead of 1 e4 g6 2 d4 c6 3 Nc3 Bg7 4 f4 d5 5 e5 etc,  apparently wasting a tempo by 1 e4 g6 2 d4 c6 3 Nc3 d6!? 4 f4 d5!? 5 e5 etc was better, since the bishop is not very effective on g7 when faced by the d4/e5 pawn centre and has better prospects on the a3-f8 diagonal (eventually).

Also compare with the French - I can't think of many lines  in which White has set up the "Advance" centre where it would be appropriate for Black to fianchetto the king's bishop.

Having said that, I'n not completely sold on Sveshnikov's verdict that it is a clear improvement for White to play 1 e4 c5 2 c3 g6 3 Nf3! Bg7 4 d4 cxd4 5 cxd4 d5 6 e5 - OK, so the bishop is not great at g7, but on the other hand White has committed the knight to f3 early and maybe Black can take advantage of this.
  
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Re: playable ? 1.e4 ç5 2.ç3 g6 3.d4 çxd 4.çxd d5
Reply #40 - 09/14/06 at 10:42:35
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I've followed all the discussion but there's one thing I still don't understand: why would the Bf8 be better off on e7 than g7? To me, unless there are specific tactical reasons, g7 is by far the betetr square. What am I missing?
  
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