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Stigma
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #22 - 01/08/11 at 12:33:58
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Davies has played lines with 4...Nc6 against most of White's Modern lines, especially in the 80s, but he later moved on to 4...a6 against most lines. In his Modern book there are mostly 4...a6 lines, but 4...Nc6 remains the weapon of choice against 4.Bg5 and 4.g3/4.Nge2.
  

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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #21 - 01/08/11 at 11:17:25
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I think Davies' book recommends 4...a6.
  
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #20 - 01/08/11 at 09:38:59
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If i recall corectly this was Davies' recommendation in his book on the modern (?). If i am wrong on this this is Martin's recommendation for Black in his recent Foxy Video series about the Modern (i hope i'm not mistaken in both cases!)
  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #19 - 01/08/11 at 04:48:47
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Frankly I have never looked at this option, even though it's hardly a new move. If 5.Qd2 doesn't satisfy 5.d5 and 5.f4 are possible.
  

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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #18 - 01/07/11 at 14:35:14
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How do you intend to continue after 4... Nc6 5.Qd2 ?

As far as I know a transposition to the Larsen-Variation of the Philidor with 5... e5 6.Nge2 exd4 7.Nxd4 is only good for White but perhaps Black can keep the tension here by delaying the capture on d4? Or do you have something different in mind for Black on move 5?
  
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #17 - 01/07/11 at 10:32:15
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What do you think of the lin 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 (Pirc and Modern are closely related) and now 4...Nc6!? Is this a way for Black to avoid being "Pirced" with 4...Nf6 which (in my view) is a headache for Black?
  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #16 - 11/26/10 at 00:08:45
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Gambit wrote on 11/25/10 at 17:11:02:
MNb, your last post had 6 000, which is impossible. Black can only Castle Kingside here, as the Queenside is still undeveloped.

Could you take another and a better look? 6.0-0-0 is a move for White and very possible, as the Queenside is completely developed.

Gambit wrote on 11/25/10 at 17:11:02:
1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 g6 3 e4 d6 4 Be3 Bg7 5 Qd2 with the idea of exchanging the pesky Bg7 as soon as possible.

Which is not the same as the Knight is still on b1. Vigus deals with this move order in the DW-book as well and recommends 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 d6 3.e4 c5. So future opponents of LDZ know how to surprise him.
After 3...g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 White's best is 6.c4, transposing to the KID Sämisch. 6.Nc3 is inferior because of e5! 7.d5 (7.Nge2 exd4 8.Nxd4 d5! is a transposition to the Larsen-Philidor which favours Black) c6!, a brilliant discovery of Gennadi Zaichik. See his game against Yudasin in Kostroma 1985. This is the main reason why White must postpone f2-f3, the move LDZ loves so much.
After 6.Bh6 Black has Bxh6 7.Qxh6 c5 and Black is counterattacking while White has not even begun yet.

Gambit wrote on 11/25/10 at 17:11:02:
My experience has shown that most players don't know what to do once their precious Bg7 is exchanged. A few, but only a few, do. Thus, if you take out the Bg7, half of your problems vanish.

Taking that Bishop out too early adds to Black's defensive possibilities, as I both know from experience and from DW again.

Gambit wrote on 11/25/10 at 17:11:02:
In some games I manage to put a Knight on g3 after advancing the pawns to g4 and h4.

Too slow. After 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 6.0-0-0 c6 7.f3 b5 only 8.h4 and 8.Bh6 Qa5 9.h4 set serious problems. Against 8.g4 Black has the strong Qa5 9.Kb1 Be6.

Gambit wrote on 11/25/10 at 17:11:02:
I lost count of how many games I won by exchanging the Bg7 and smashing through on the Kingside.

I am not entirely sure if my score is slightly more or slightly less than 80%. I can remember only two draws after Black's castling; no losses. All games classical time control.

Gambit wrote on 11/25/10 at 17:11:02:
So, the Be3+Qd2 attack (Argentine?) has my vote of confidence.

Argentinean Attack indeed, as Pilnik, Rossetto and a couple of other Argentinean players tried this attacking scheme as first.
  

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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #15 - 11/25/10 at 17:11:02
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MNb, your last post had 6 000, which is impossible. Black can only Castle Kingside here, as the Queenside is still undeveloped.

Personally, I see quite a few players try the Pirc/Modern move order when they try avoid the BDG. I then steer for the following variation:

1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 g6 3 e4 d6 4 Be3 Bg7 5 Qd2 with the idea of exchanging the pesky Bg7 as soon as possible.

My experience has shown that most players don't know what to do once their precious Bg7 is exchanged. A few, but only a few, do. Thus, if you take out the Bg7, half of your problems vanish.

In some games I manage to put a Knight on g3 after advancing the pawns to g4 and h4. Then after Bh6, h5, my attack crashes through faster than Black on the Queenside. I lost count of how many games I won by exchanging the Bg7 and smashing through on the Kingside. As I recall, I learned that attack while attending the Brooklyn Children's Chess School in 1989-1993. At 22, I was the oldest student. Next oldest was 14. NM Arkady Geller was the teacher.
My rating at the time was 1400, but after attending that school, it shot up to 1700+.

So, the Be3+Qd2 attack (Argentine?) has my vote of confidence.
  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #14 - 11/25/10 at 14:17:42
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For those who own Dangerous Weapons Pirc and Modern this game is quite relevant:



Sikorsky,R (2276) - Dyson,G [B07]
Money Prize Tournament 07/009 ICCF, 18.12.2007
[MNb]

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 6.0-0-0 c6 7.f3 b5 8.h4 h5 9.g4 b4 10.Nce2 hxg4 11.h5 Nxh5 12.Bh6 Qa5 13.Bxg7 Kxg7 14.Ng3 Rh8 15.Bc4 f6 16.N1e2 Nd7 [16...Ba6 17.fxg4 Bxc4 18.gxh5 Qxa2 19.Qxb4 Na6 20.Qb7 Qa1+ 21.Kd2 Qa5+ 22.Ke3 Qc7 23.Qxc7 Nxc7 24.hxg6 Kxg6 25.Nf4+ Kf7 26.Nf5]

17.Bb3 Nf8 18.Nxh5+ gxh5 19.d5 c5 20.Nf4 Kf7 21.e5 fxe5 22.Nxh5 Rg8 23.f4 e4
[23...Ng6]

24.Qe3 Qd8 25.Qxe4 a5 26.Ba4 Ng6 27.f5 Ne5 28.Nf4 Rh8 29.Ng6 Rxh1 30.Nxe5+ dxe5 31.Rxh1 Qg8 32.d6 Qg5+ 33.Kb1 Ra7 34.Bb3+ Kf6 35.dxe7 Rxe7 36.Qc6+ 1-0
  

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MNb
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #13 - 09/17/06 at 02:32:12
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7...Qa5 8.0-0-0 Be6 9.Kb1 (9.d5 is too early imo) Nbd7 (but b5 10.d5! is strong now) 10.Nf3 0-0-0 11.Be2/12.Rhe1 or evt. 12.Ng5 and White is somewhat better. He has more influence in the centre and Be6 is not ideally placed.
Agreed, Black has avoided tactical complications.
7...Qa5 8.f3 b5 (Nbd7 9.Nge2 and 10.Nc1) 9.Qd2 has been played with decent results, eg Nbd7 10.Bd3 and 11.Nge2. Which one to chose is a matter of taste.
Again agreed, it's more fun if Black castles. But above ELO-1800 (s)he usually doesn't.
  

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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #12 - 09/16/06 at 18:19:58
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In my database 8.Bd3 is almost always played. I suppose that besides covering e4, the idea is to play e4-e5 at some point. 8.0-0-0 scores better but only because Black replies 8...b5. A better try seems 8...Be6 as in:

Dzhumaev,M (2495) - McNab,C (2416) [B07]
34th Olympiad Istanbul TUR (5), 01.11.2000

1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Be3 Nf6 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Qa5 8.0-0-0 Be6 9.d5 cxd5 10.exd5 Bxd5 11.Nxd5 Nxd5 12.Qg5 e6 13.Bc4 h6 14.Qg3 Ne7 15.Qxd6 Nbc6 16.Nf3 0-0 17.Qf4 Kg7 18.Rd7 Rad8 19.Rxb7 Qa4 20.a3 Nf5 21.Rd1 Rxd1+ 22.Kxd1 g5 23.Nxg5 Ncd4 24.Bd3 Qc6 25.Be4 Qc4 26.Bd3 Qd5 ½-½

8.f3 did not give any hits in this exact position but transposes to other lines (e.g. 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.f3 c6 6.Qd2 Qa5 7.Bh6 Bxh6 8.Qxh6. It doesn't seem so scary for Black, but I like your plan Ng1-e2-c1-b3 In the meantime Black will play b7-b5 and Nbd7. IMO the White queen is offside on h6 if he can't play Ng5 or e4-e5. g2-g4 and h2-h4 is possible but would be a lot more fun if Black castled kingside.
  
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #11 - 09/15/06 at 20:37:07
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Dragonslayer wrote on 09/15/06 at 14:05:03:
I have tried everything:
early 0-0-0
early Bh6
Nf3 (mostly with 0-0) or f3.
early h2-h4
a2-a4 and 0-0 against b7-b5 or castle into it with 0-0-0.

Usually it is the old case of hot knife and soft butter, but there are a few specialists in this line with Black in my chess club so I've lost some games too.

One comment:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Qa5 8.Bd3 c5! is given by Emms in his book. It is a specialty of Colin McNab (J. van der Wiel has had less impressive results with the move) see e.g. Shaw-McNab, Glasgow 2000.

Some people think 4...a6 is a mistake. Tiger Hillarp thinks 4...c6 is the mistake since c6-c5 will cost a tempo (but then an eventual a6-a5 will cost a tempo so it all depends on what White plays). I don't have his book on the ...a6 modern but supposedly it is very good.


If Black castles, I castle into it. I have about 80% or more as White. But usually, on my level, Black has no idea what to do after opposite castling.

In that line above I think 8.0-0-0 better. Why block the d-file voluntarily. Maybe 8.f3 followed by Ng1-e2-c1-b3 is also possible. This knight manoeuvre is a standard reaction after Black's early queen move.

After 1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 a6/c6 White again has the choice between 5.f4 and 5.Qd2. These days I incline towards the first.
  

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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #10 - 09/15/06 at 14:05:03
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I have never played anything but the Be3+Qd2 setup against either Pirc or Modern move-orders, it seems you and I have very similar opening repetoires, MNb! Very happy that you brought the subject up. Smiley I like your name Argentinian attack better than "150 attack" which might as well be called 1800 attack.
In "attacking with 1.e4" John Emms recommends this setup against both Black systems.
I remember an article by Gary Lane with this setup in one of the first issues of Stefan Bücker's magazine Kaissiber. And of course there is Pirc Alert! by Chernin and Alburt. Unfortunately the section on Be3 and Qd2 is one of the weakest.

I have tried everything:
early 0-0-0
early Bh6
Nf3 (mostly with 0-0) or f3.
early h2-h4
a2-a4 and 0-0 against b7-b5 or castle into it with 0-0-0.

Usually it is the old case of hot knife and soft butter, but there are a few specialists in this line with Black in my chess club so I've lost some games too.

One comment:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Qa5 8.Bd3 c5! is given by Emms in his book. It is a specialty of Colin McNab (J. van der Wiel has had less impressive results with the move) see e.g. Shaw-McNab, Glasgow 2000.

Some people think 4...a6 is a mistake. Tiger Hillarp thinks 4...c6 is the mistake since c6-c5 will cost a tempo (but then an eventual a6-a5 will cost a tempo so it all depends on what White plays). I don't have his book on the ...a6 modern but supposedly it is very good.
  
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #9 - 09/15/06 at 02:30:25
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Holbox wrote on 09/14/06 at 06:39:23:
Risky play by black, but winning

Shaked,T (2500) - Beim,V (2535) [B07]
Schwarzach op-A Schwarzach (5.3), 27.08.1997

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Bg7 6.f4 0-0 7.Nf3 Nbd7 8.e5 Ne8 9.h4 dxe5 10.dxe5 Nc7 11.Qe2 Nb6 12.h5 Nbd5 13.Bd2 Nxc3 14.Bxc3 Bg4 15.hxg6 fxg6 16.Bd2 Qd5 17.c4 Qf7 18.Rh4 h5 19.Rxg4 hxg4 20.Ng5 Qf5 21.g3 Bh6 22.Ne4 g5 23.Nf2 gxf4 24.Nxg4 Bg7 25.gxf4 Ne6 26.Qg2 Nxf4 27.Qg3 Qe4+ 28.Be3 Rad8 0-1


8.Bd3, eg Pavasovic-Graf, Deizisau 2005. But I am not going to debate the ins and outs of 5.h3/6.f4 here. Holbox, if you open a separate thread on 4.Be3 preparing x.f4, then I am your man.  Smiley

PS: x...Qb6 must be answered with y.Qc1.
« Last Edit: 09/15/06 at 13:25:09 by MNb »  

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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #8 - 09/14/06 at 06:39:23
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Quote:
Sharper and more dangerous is 5.h3 (iso 5.Qd2) followed by 6.f4. As this is off topic, I will not give more details.


Risky play by black, but winning

Shaked,T (2500) - Beim,V (2535) [B07]
Schwarzach op-A Schwarzach (5.3), 27.08.1997

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Bg7 6.f4 0-0 7.Nf3 Nbd7 8.e5 Ne8 9.h4 dxe5 10.dxe5 Nc7 11.Qe2 Nb6 12.h5 Nbd5 13.Bd2 Nxc3 14.Bxc3 Bg4 15.hxg6 fxg6 16.Bd2 Qd5 17.c4 Qf7 18.Rh4 h5 19.Rxg4 hxg4 20.Ng5 Qf5 21.g3 Bh6 22.Ne4 g5 23.Nf2 gxf4 24.Nxg4 Bg7 25.gxf4 Ne6 26.Qg2 Nxf4 27.Qg3 Qe4+ 28.Be3 Rad8 0-1

Active play by black, only draw

Sveshnikov,E (2575) - Beliavsky,A (2645) [B07]
SLO-chT Bled (3), 09.11.1998

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Bg7 6.f4 Qb6 7.Rb1 e5 8.Nf3 0-0 9.fxe5 dxe5 10.Bc4 exd4 11.Qxd4 Qxd4 12.Bxd4 Nfd7 13.Bxg7 Kxg7 14.a4 a5 15.0-0 Na6 16.Rbe1 Nac5 17.e5 Nb6 18.Ba2 Be6 19.Bxe6 Nxe6 20.b3 Nc5 21.Ng5 Rae8 22.Nce4 Nxe4 23.Nxe4 Re7 24.Nd6 Rb8 25.Rf3 Nd7 26.Rxf7+ Rxf7 27.Nxf7 ½-½

  

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