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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems (Read 15458 times)
Stigma
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #22 - 01/08/11 at 12:33:58
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Davies has played lines with 4...Nc6 against most of White's Modern lines, especially in the 80s, but he later moved on to 4...a6 against most lines. In his Modern book there are mostly 4...a6 lines, but 4...Nc6 remains the weapon of choice against 4.Bg5 and 4.g3/4.Nge2.
  

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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #21 - 01/08/11 at 11:17:25
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I think Davies' book recommends 4...a6.
  
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #20 - 01/08/11 at 09:38:59
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If i recall corectly this was Davies' recommendation in his book on the modern (?). If i am wrong on this this is Martin's recommendation for Black in his recent Foxy Video series about the Modern (i hope i'm not mistaken in both cases!)
  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #19 - 01/08/11 at 04:48:47
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Frankly I have never looked at this option, even though it's hardly a new move. If 5.Qd2 doesn't satisfy 5.d5 and 5.f4 are possible.
  

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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #18 - 01/07/11 at 14:35:14
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How do you intend to continue after 4... Nc6 5.Qd2 ?

As far as I know a transposition to the Larsen-Variation of the Philidor with 5... e5 6.Nge2 exd4 7.Nxd4 is only good for White but perhaps Black can keep the tension here by delaying the capture on d4? Or do you have something different in mind for Black on move 5?
  
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #17 - 01/07/11 at 10:32:15
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What do you think of the lin 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 (Pirc and Modern are closely related) and now 4...Nc6!? Is this a way for Black to avoid being "Pirced" with 4...Nf6 which (in my view) is a headache for Black?
  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #16 - 11/26/10 at 00:08:45
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Gambit wrote on 11/25/10 at 17:11:02:
MNb, your last post had 6 000, which is impossible. Black can only Castle Kingside here, as the Queenside is still undeveloped.

Could you take another and a better look? 6.0-0-0 is a move for White and very possible, as the Queenside is completely developed.

Gambit wrote on 11/25/10 at 17:11:02:
1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 g6 3 e4 d6 4 Be3 Bg7 5 Qd2 with the idea of exchanging the pesky Bg7 as soon as possible.

Which is not the same as the Knight is still on b1. Vigus deals with this move order in the DW-book as well and recommends 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 d6 3.e4 c5. So future opponents of LDZ know how to surprise him.
After 3...g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 White's best is 6.c4, transposing to the KID Sämisch. 6.Nc3 is inferior because of e5! 7.d5 (7.Nge2 exd4 8.Nxd4 d5! is a transposition to the Larsen-Philidor which favours Black) c6!, a brilliant discovery of Gennadi Zaichik. See his game against Yudasin in Kostroma 1985. This is the main reason why White must postpone f2-f3, the move LDZ loves so much.
After 6.Bh6 Black has Bxh6 7.Qxh6 c5 and Black is counterattacking while White has not even begun yet.

Gambit wrote on 11/25/10 at 17:11:02:
My experience has shown that most players don't know what to do once their precious Bg7 is exchanged. A few, but only a few, do. Thus, if you take out the Bg7, half of your problems vanish.

Taking that Bishop out too early adds to Black's defensive possibilities, as I both know from experience and from DW again.

Gambit wrote on 11/25/10 at 17:11:02:
In some games I manage to put a Knight on g3 after advancing the pawns to g4 and h4.

Too slow. After 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 6.0-0-0 c6 7.f3 b5 only 8.h4 and 8.Bh6 Qa5 9.h4 set serious problems. Against 8.g4 Black has the strong Qa5 9.Kb1 Be6.

Gambit wrote on 11/25/10 at 17:11:02:
I lost count of how many games I won by exchanging the Bg7 and smashing through on the Kingside.

I am not entirely sure if my score is slightly more or slightly less than 80%. I can remember only two draws after Black's castling; no losses. All games classical time control.

Gambit wrote on 11/25/10 at 17:11:02:
So, the Be3+Qd2 attack (Argentine?) has my vote of confidence.

Argentinean Attack indeed, as Pilnik, Rossetto and a couple of other Argentinean players tried this attacking scheme as first.
  

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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #15 - 11/25/10 at 17:11:02
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MNb, your last post had 6 000, which is impossible. Black can only Castle Kingside here, as the Queenside is still undeveloped.

Personally, I see quite a few players try the Pirc/Modern move order when they try avoid the BDG. I then steer for the following variation:

1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 g6 3 e4 d6 4 Be3 Bg7 5 Qd2 with the idea of exchanging the pesky Bg7 as soon as possible.

My experience has shown that most players don't know what to do once their precious Bg7 is exchanged. A few, but only a few, do. Thus, if you take out the Bg7, half of your problems vanish.

In some games I manage to put a Knight on g3 after advancing the pawns to g4 and h4. Then after Bh6, h5, my attack crashes through faster than Black on the Queenside. I lost count of how many games I won by exchanging the Bg7 and smashing through on the Kingside. As I recall, I learned that attack while attending the Brooklyn Children's Chess School in 1989-1993. At 22, I was the oldest student. Next oldest was 14. NM Arkady Geller was the teacher.
My rating at the time was 1400, but after attending that school, it shot up to 1700+.

So, the Be3+Qd2 attack (Argentine?) has my vote of confidence.
  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #14 - 11/25/10 at 14:17:42
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For those who own Dangerous Weapons Pirc and Modern this game is quite relevant:



Sikorsky,R (2276) - Dyson,G [B07]
Money Prize Tournament 07/009 ICCF, 18.12.2007
[MNb]

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 6.0-0-0 c6 7.f3 b5 8.h4 h5 9.g4 b4 10.Nce2 hxg4 11.h5 Nxh5 12.Bh6 Qa5 13.Bxg7 Kxg7 14.Ng3 Rh8 15.Bc4 f6 16.N1e2 Nd7 [16...Ba6 17.fxg4 Bxc4 18.gxh5 Qxa2 19.Qxb4 Na6 20.Qb7 Qa1+ 21.Kd2 Qa5+ 22.Ke3 Qc7 23.Qxc7 Nxc7 24.hxg6 Kxg6 25.Nf4+ Kf7 26.Nf5]

17.Bb3 Nf8 18.Nxh5+ gxh5 19.d5 c5 20.Nf4 Kf7 21.e5 fxe5 22.Nxh5 Rg8 23.f4 e4
[23...Ng6]

24.Qe3 Qd8 25.Qxe4 a5 26.Ba4 Ng6 27.f5 Ne5 28.Nf4 Rh8 29.Ng6 Rxh1 30.Nxe5+ dxe5 31.Rxh1 Qg8 32.d6 Qg5+ 33.Kb1 Ra7 34.Bb3+ Kf6 35.dxe7 Rxe7 36.Qc6+ 1-0
  

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MNb
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #13 - 09/17/06 at 02:32:12
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7...Qa5 8.0-0-0 Be6 9.Kb1 (9.d5 is too early imo) Nbd7 (but b5 10.d5! is strong now) 10.Nf3 0-0-0 11.Be2/12.Rhe1 or evt. 12.Ng5 and White is somewhat better. He has more influence in the centre and Be6 is not ideally placed.
Agreed, Black has avoided tactical complications.
7...Qa5 8.f3 b5 (Nbd7 9.Nge2 and 10.Nc1) 9.Qd2 has been played with decent results, eg Nbd7 10.Bd3 and 11.Nge2. Which one to chose is a matter of taste.
Again agreed, it's more fun if Black castles. But above ELO-1800 (s)he usually doesn't.
  

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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #12 - 09/16/06 at 18:19:58
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In my database 8.Bd3 is almost always played. I suppose that besides covering e4, the idea is to play e4-e5 at some point. 8.0-0-0 scores better but only because Black replies 8...b5. A better try seems 8...Be6 as in:

Dzhumaev,M (2495) - McNab,C (2416) [B07]
34th Olympiad Istanbul TUR (5), 01.11.2000

1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Be3 Nf6 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Qa5 8.0-0-0 Be6 9.d5 cxd5 10.exd5 Bxd5 11.Nxd5 Nxd5 12.Qg5 e6 13.Bc4 h6 14.Qg3 Ne7 15.Qxd6 Nbc6 16.Nf3 0-0 17.Qf4 Kg7 18.Rd7 Rad8 19.Rxb7 Qa4 20.a3 Nf5 21.Rd1 Rxd1+ 22.Kxd1 g5 23.Nxg5 Ncd4 24.Bd3 Qc6 25.Be4 Qc4 26.Bd3 Qd5 ½-½

8.f3 did not give any hits in this exact position but transposes to other lines (e.g. 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.f3 c6 6.Qd2 Qa5 7.Bh6 Bxh6 8.Qxh6. It doesn't seem so scary for Black, but I like your plan Ng1-e2-c1-b3 In the meantime Black will play b7-b5 and Nbd7. IMO the White queen is offside on h6 if he can't play Ng5 or e4-e5. g2-g4 and h2-h4 is possible but would be a lot more fun if Black castled kingside.
  
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #11 - 09/15/06 at 20:37:07
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Dragonslayer wrote on 09/15/06 at 14:05:03:
I have tried everything:
early 0-0-0
early Bh6
Nf3 (mostly with 0-0) or f3.
early h2-h4
a2-a4 and 0-0 against b7-b5 or castle into it with 0-0-0.

Usually it is the old case of hot knife and soft butter, but there are a few specialists in this line with Black in my chess club so I've lost some games too.

One comment:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Qa5 8.Bd3 c5! is given by Emms in his book. It is a specialty of Colin McNab (J. van der Wiel has had less impressive results with the move) see e.g. Shaw-McNab, Glasgow 2000.

Some people think 4...a6 is a mistake. Tiger Hillarp thinks 4...c6 is the mistake since c6-c5 will cost a tempo (but then an eventual a6-a5 will cost a tempo so it all depends on what White plays). I don't have his book on the ...a6 modern but supposedly it is very good.


If Black castles, I castle into it. I have about 80% or more as White. But usually, on my level, Black has no idea what to do after opposite castling.

In that line above I think 8.0-0-0 better. Why block the d-file voluntarily. Maybe 8.f3 followed by Ng1-e2-c1-b3 is also possible. This knight manoeuvre is a standard reaction after Black's early queen move.

After 1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 a6/c6 White again has the choice between 5.f4 and 5.Qd2. These days I incline towards the first.
  

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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #10 - 09/15/06 at 14:05:03
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I have never played anything but the Be3+Qd2 setup against either Pirc or Modern move-orders, it seems you and I have very similar opening repetoires, MNb! Very happy that you brought the subject up. Smiley I like your name Argentinian attack better than "150 attack" which might as well be called 1800 attack.
In "attacking with 1.e4" John Emms recommends this setup against both Black systems.
I remember an article by Gary Lane with this setup in one of the first issues of Stefan Bücker's magazine Kaissiber. And of course there is Pirc Alert! by Chernin and Alburt. Unfortunately the section on Be3 and Qd2 is one of the weakest.

I have tried everything:
early 0-0-0
early Bh6
Nf3 (mostly with 0-0) or f3.
early h2-h4
a2-a4 and 0-0 against b7-b5 or castle into it with 0-0-0.

Usually it is the old case of hot knife and soft butter, but there are a few specialists in this line with Black in my chess club so I've lost some games too.

One comment:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Qa5 8.Bd3 c5! is given by Emms in his book. It is a specialty of Colin McNab (J. van der Wiel has had less impressive results with the move) see e.g. Shaw-McNab, Glasgow 2000.

Some people think 4...a6 is a mistake. Tiger Hillarp thinks 4...c6 is the mistake since c6-c5 will cost a tempo (but then an eventual a6-a5 will cost a tempo so it all depends on what White plays). I don't have his book on the ...a6 modern but supposedly it is very good.
  
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #9 - 09/15/06 at 02:30:25
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Holbox wrote on 09/14/06 at 06:39:23:
Risky play by black, but winning

Shaked,T (2500) - Beim,V (2535) [B07]
Schwarzach op-A Schwarzach (5.3), 27.08.1997

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Bg7 6.f4 0-0 7.Nf3 Nbd7 8.e5 Ne8 9.h4 dxe5 10.dxe5 Nc7 11.Qe2 Nb6 12.h5 Nbd5 13.Bd2 Nxc3 14.Bxc3 Bg4 15.hxg6 fxg6 16.Bd2 Qd5 17.c4 Qf7 18.Rh4 h5 19.Rxg4 hxg4 20.Ng5 Qf5 21.g3 Bh6 22.Ne4 g5 23.Nf2 gxf4 24.Nxg4 Bg7 25.gxf4 Ne6 26.Qg2 Nxf4 27.Qg3 Qe4+ 28.Be3 Rad8 0-1


8.Bd3, eg Pavasovic-Graf, Deizisau 2005. But I am not going to debate the ins and outs of 5.h3/6.f4 here. Holbox, if you open a separate thread on 4.Be3 preparing x.f4, then I am your man.  Smiley

PS: x...Qb6 must be answered with y.Qc1.
« Last Edit: 09/15/06 at 13:25:09 by MNb »  

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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #8 - 09/14/06 at 06:39:23
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Quote:
Sharper and more dangerous is 5.h3 (iso 5.Qd2) followed by 6.f4. As this is off topic, I will not give more details.


Risky play by black, but winning

Shaked,T (2500) - Beim,V (2535) [B07]
Schwarzach op-A Schwarzach (5.3), 27.08.1997

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Bg7 6.f4 0-0 7.Nf3 Nbd7 8.e5 Ne8 9.h4 dxe5 10.dxe5 Nc7 11.Qe2 Nb6 12.h5 Nbd5 13.Bd2 Nxc3 14.Bxc3 Bg4 15.hxg6 fxg6 16.Bd2 Qd5 17.c4 Qf7 18.Rh4 h5 19.Rxg4 hxg4 20.Ng5 Qf5 21.g3 Bh6 22.Ne4 g5 23.Nf2 gxf4 24.Nxg4 Bg7 25.gxf4 Ne6 26.Qg2 Nxf4 27.Qg3 Qe4+ 28.Be3 Rad8 0-1

Active play by black, only draw

Sveshnikov,E (2575) - Beliavsky,A (2645) [B07]
SLO-chT Bled (3), 09.11.1998

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Bg7 6.f4 Qb6 7.Rb1 e5 8.Nf3 0-0 9.fxe5 dxe5 10.Bc4 exd4 11.Qxd4 Qxd4 12.Bxd4 Nfd7 13.Bxg7 Kxg7 14.a4 a5 15.0-0 Na6 16.Rbe1 Nac5 17.e5 Nb6 18.Ba2 Be6 19.Bxe6 Nxe6 20.b3 Nc5 21.Ng5 Rae8 22.Nce4 Nxe4 23.Nxe4 Re7 24.Nd6 Rb8 25.Rf3 Nd7 26.Rxf7+ Rxf7 27.Nxf7 ½-½

  

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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #7 - 09/13/06 at 15:28:15
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MNb wrote on 09/13/06 at 02:52:21:


Question 1 (for Marc Narciso only): iirc you have a title. Are you GM?



Yes, I am.
  
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #6 - 09/13/06 at 15:27:26
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So the matter of when to play f2-f3 is of more interest then I thought. If I had known, that there was so much interest in the Be3/Qd2 systems, I would have started a thread long time before. A few remarks.

1) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f3 initially was the normal move order, to prevent the ...Ng4 sally. Only in the 80-s it became clear, that this is not to be feared. This raised the popularity of 4.Be3 and 5.Qd2, though it has not reached the status of the Austrian Attack (yet?) Black can play 4...Ng4, 5...Ng4 and 6...Ng4 (assuming White postpones f3), but all versions are good for White.

2) 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 6.f3 allows both c5 and e5.
2a) The only game I ever lost as White after ...0-0 saw 6.f3 c5 7.dxc5 dxc5. It was not a pleasant experience, I never succeeded in developing my kingside. The same idea is known in the KID. Instead White can play a kind of Benoni with 7.d5 or transpose to a very topical variation of the Dragon with 7.Nge2 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Nc6 9.0-0-0.
2b) 6.f3 e5 7.d5 (7.Nge2 exd4 8.Nxd4 d5!?) c6 8.0-0-0 cxd5 drew attention after Judasin-Zaitsjik, Kostroma 1985. Since then White's results have been very good.
2c) As 6.0-0-0 avoids these possibilities, these lines are only relevant if White plays 4.f3.

3) 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.f3 b5 7.Nge2 Nbd7 8.Bh6 Bxh6 9.Qxh6 Bb7 is the famous game Kasparov-Topalov, Wijk aan Zee 1999. I have always felt, that both players were improvising during the opening. 9...b4! looks better to me. White should consider 8.g4 (to answer Nb6 with 9.Ng3) and 7.h4. It does not make sense to castle, as Black's king in the centre will be safer than White's.
It's in the game K-T that I have found the quote "a major exponent of the 4.Be3 line GM Vlastimil Jansa would be dissatisfied with this move, as later Black will have to lose a tempo capturing on h6."
It's remarkable, that after 6.f3 usually some patient manoeuvring is required. Theoretically chances are equal, but of course play can become very interesting - see the K-T game again.
As explained in my first post I prefer 6.Bh6.
The real 150-Attack (ugly name indeed) might be met with Nbd7 7.Bh6 Bxh6 8.Qxh6 e5, which usually will transpose to 6.Bh6 lines.

4) 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 and I think Nbd7 more precise then b5.
4a) 5.Qd2 b5 6.Bd3 and 7.Nf3 should not deserve the name 150-Attack. White castles kingside and will try to exploit Black's weakness on the queenside, beginning with a4. This will attract allround players, but not the hackers amongst us. White's results have been pretty good.
4b) 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 e5 is very solid.
4c) 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.f3 b5 (or b5 6.f3 Nbd7) followed by 7...Nb6 prevents White from playing g4 and Ng1-e2-g3. Maybe 7.h4 Nb6 8.Nh3 offers some chances. If it does, Black can always return to 3) by playing 7...Bg7. Another idea is 7.Bd3 e5 8.Nge2, castling kingside again and start queenside play with a4. Again 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.f3 e5 is more solid.
4d) It is just to satisfy my curiosity, that I delve in 4a, b and c. Sharper and more dangerous is 5.h3 (iso 5.Qd2) followed by 6.f4. As this is off topic, I will not give more details.

5) 4.f3 c6 5.Be3 Qb6 6.Qc1 is best. True, White's intentions have been disrupted, but Black's queen is not ideally placed either. As soon she moves (probably to a5), White can play Qd2, with all kind of transpositions. Until then White can play either g4, Ng1-e2-g3 or h4, Nh3. Just like Black (s)he can leave the king in the centre for a while.
There is nothing against 5...b5 6.Qd2 Nbd7 and not much against ...Bg7, transposing to points 3 and 4.
Moreover White can avoid this by playing 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 first. As a result the idea ...Qb6 is irrelevant.

I hope it has become clear, how important the defence with e5, Nbd7 and Qe7 actually is. By no means I already agree, that 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 b5 is the optimal move order. There are two counterarguments: 5...Nbd7 and 5.h3.

@JEH
You are completely right, that White borrows many ideas from the Jugoslav Attack. Black spending two tempi on c7-c5xd4 is not the only difference though. I have not often seen Black playing e5 and Qe7 (also two tempi) in the Jugoslav Attack. Neither I ever have met the exchange sac Rxc3 in the Pirc.  Tongue
  

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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #5 - 09/13/06 at 11:02:08
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MNb wrote on 09/13/06 at 02:52:21:
As a result White can only make progress with the manoeuvre Ng1-e2-g3-f5; sometimes as a sac.

In the Dragon, a similar theme arrives via the route Ng1-f3-d4-f5, although here Black has given White free tempos with c5 and cd as well as castling into it Wink
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #4 - 09/13/06 at 10:19:44
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Didn´t know of 5...Qb6 idea, thanks for that.

I suppose 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6!? 5.Qd2 may be the optimal move order for both sides.
White still has the option of transposing back into some kind of "150 attack" - no sorry that name cant stick! It has got to be the worst name I´ve heard of for a variation.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6!? 5.Qd2 b5 - now White must go 6.f3 or 6.Bd3, just thinking aloud because I am no expert in this line, but I suppose if Black can complete his system with a setup of ...Nbd7, ...Bb7,...e5 (not sure of the specific order) with nothing bad happening to him - then he can continue on with ...Bg7 and ...0-0. This at least is my general view of it, since there are some positional nasties to counter such as a4 - best to deal with all of that then complete the development would be my philosophy. If it can be done is another thing  Wink
  
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #3 - 09/13/06 at 09:57:28
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Quote:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6!? 5.f3 b5 seems like the critical line to me - although more common in practice I imagine is for White to play Nf3 at some point instead.



I like 5...Qb6!? (David Bronstein idea) even more, obviously if 6.Qd2..., then 6.Qxb2.

  

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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #2 - 09/13/06 at 09:46:20
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MNb wrote on 09/13/06 at 02:52:21:
The Sämisch Attack against the KID and the Jugoslav Attack against the Dragon are established theory.

Also note the blaze of popularity of the English against the Najdorf. The set up is usable against some other variations too.

MNb wrote on 09/13/06 at 02:52:21:
call the setup with f3, Be3 and Qd2 the Argentine Attack. The first games were played by Argentines, who were also the first regular practicioners (especially Corte and Rossetto).
If White plays Nf3 instead, we get the 150-Attack. Does everyone agree with this nomenclature?

I agree that these variations desperately need a name. Horrible though the name 150-Attack is, it seems to have stuck. Well it could have been worse, like the "Toilet."
Has the name "Argentine" caught on anywhere else. I'm happy with it for the purpose of this thread, rather than saying Be3/Qd2/f3 variation.


MNb wrote on 09/13/06 at 02:52:21:
q3: What about the defence with e5, Nbd7 and Qe7?

Normally I wouldn't castle into such things until I'd diffused the bomb. But worth a look to see if this logical approach can work. I'll have a look into it when I have more time along with the other questions.

Nice to see some threads on the Pirc. It seemed to have gone dry in the forum, and the Chesspublishing site has been devoid of current Pircs for a long while until this month.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
Reply #1 - 09/13/06 at 09:05:16
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Well MnB you have a lot of stuff written there, but for starters I would say most Pirc players these days will not even play 4...Bg7 and instead they know of the nuance to play 4...c6 immediately (discouraging any Bh6 ideas)

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6!? 5.f3 b5 seems like the critical line to me - although more common in practice I imagine is for White to play Nf3 at some point instead.
  
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Pirc: Be3 and Qd2 systems
09/13/06 at 02:52:21
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The Sämisch Attack against the KID and the Jugoslav Attack against the Dragon are established theory. I have always found it a bit strange, that the same setup against the Pirc is not more popular. With only very few exceptions I always have played it. Under ELO 1800 White may expect Black to castle; above Black usually knows it's risky.

Question 1 (for Marc Narciso only): iirc you have a title. Are you GM?

The other questions are for everybody.

q2: I call the setup with f3, Be3 and Qd2 the Argentine Attack. The first games were played by Argentines, who were also the first regular practicioners (especially Corte and Rossetto).
If White plays Nf3 instead, we get the 150-Attack. Does everyone agree with this nomenclature?

q3: What about the defence with e5, Nbd7 and Qe7? Let me explain this.

Ree,H - Donner,J [B07]
NEDch Zierikzee (2), 1967
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f3 Bg7 5.Be3 0–0 6.Qd2 e5 7.Nge2 c6 8.0–0–0 Nbd7 9.Bh6 b5 10.h4 Re8 11.Bxg7 Kxg7 12.h5 Qe7 13.g4 Nf8 14.Ng3 Kh8 15.Be2 Bb7 16.Rdg1 Ne6 17.dxe5 dxe5 18.hxg6 fxg6 19.Qh6 Qg7 20.Qh4 Nd4 21.Bd1 Nd7 22.Nb1 Qe7 23.Qh6 Nf8 24.Nf5 Qc7 25.c3 Nde6 26.Bb3 Nf4 27.Rh2 c5 28.Qh4 Qd8 29.Qh6 Qc7 30.Qh4 Qd8 ½–½

You will not find this game in Nunn/McNab; in fact they ignore the idea completely. It took me some effort to reinforce White's attack: 15.dxe5 dxe5 16.g5 N6d7 (Nxh5 17.Nxh5 gxh5 18.Rxh5 Ne6 19.Bxb5 cxb5 20.Nd5 wins) 17.Nf5 gxf5 18.exf5 Nb6 19.f6 Qc7 20.Bd3 Nfd7 21.Rdg1 with a dangerous attack.
Still Black's defensive idea strikes me as very logical. The exchange Be3-h6xg7 is usually essential for White's attack. This basically consists of following Fischer's devise: h2-h4-h5xg6, sac, sac mate. With the bishops exchanged it is natural to fix some white pawns (e4, f3) on White squares. Black can protect the vulnerable pawn h7 sufficiently. As a result White can only make progress with the manoeuvre Ng1-e2-g3-f5; sometimes as a sac.

This brings me to the variation 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6
-5...0-0 6.0-0-0 c6 see q5.

6.Bh6
-6.Nf3 is the 150-Attack; 6.f3 the Argentine Attack. 6.Bh6 leaves the choice open.

6...0-0
-the main variation is 6...Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Nbd7 (e5) 8.0-0-0 e5 9.h3 (9.f3!?) Nbd7 10.Nf3. Kasparov-Radjabov, Moscow 2002 is one important game.

7.f3
-"the mixture of ...0-0 and ...c6 is doubtful; if Black wants to expand with ...c6 and ...b5 he should not present White with a fixed target." Nunn/McNab. Yes, but they don't say anything about ...e5.
7.Nf3 is the 150-Attack again.
Other options are 7.h4 (see q4), 7.Bxg7 Kxg7 8.Nf3 and 7.0-0-0.

7...e5
-or 7...b5 8.h4 e5. Again White must exchange bishops himself: 9.0-0-0 Nbd7 10.g4 Qe7 11.Nge2 Bxh6! 12.Qxh6 b4 13.Nb1 Nb6 14.dxe5 dxe5 15.Ng3 Be6 is equal.

8.Bxg7
-as 8.Nge2 Nxe4! equalizes immediately.

8...Kxg7 9.0-0-0 Nbd7 10.h4 Qe7 11.g4
-Fischer is right after 11.h5 Nxh5? 12.dxe5 dxe5 13.g4. Black must play the cool defensive move 11.h5 b5! controlling square c4. As White cannot involve his remaining bishop in his attack, he cannot break through. One example is 12.dxe5 dxe5 13.g4 Nb6 14.Nge2?? Nc4 0-1.

11...b5 12.Nge2 Nb6
-12...Re8 13.h5 Nf8 14.Ng3 Kh8 transposes to Ree-Donner, NEDch 1967. White must play 15.dxe5 dxe5 16.g5 as shown above.

13.Ng3 Be6 14.h5 b4 15.Nb1 a5
-Now it's clear, why White should not exchange on e5 too early. After 14.dxe5 dxe5 15.h5 b4 16.Nb1 Rfd8 Black has a good game.
15...Bxa2 16.Qg5 Be6 17.dxe5 dxe5 18.Qxe5 Kg8 19.hxg6 fxg6 20.Nf5 wins.

16.dxe5 dxe5 17.Qg5 Nbd7 18.hxg6 fxg6 19.Nf5
After some complicated transpositions we have reached Potter-Klein, USA Open 1994. White should have won.
If this is correct, Black's defensive idea is cracked. Essential are: exchange bishops yourself and delay the exchange on e5.
But immediately I feel some doubts again. Maybe Black can play 7...Bxh6 8.Qxh6 e5 9.0-0-0 Qe7.

So I repeat q3. Are my analysis, evaluations and conclusions correct? Is Black's defense with e5, Qe7 and Nbd7 cracked indeed?

q4 assumes, that 7.f3 e5 (or maybe Bxh6 8.Qxh6 e5) holds. Can White play an improved version? 7.h4 Bxh6 8.Qxh6 Ng4 9.Qd2 seems to win a tempo.

q5: then what is White's best after 5...0-0 6.0-0-0 c6 7.f3 (another question is when to play this move; I will save it for another time) b5 or Nbd7? Does the argument above mean, that 8.h4 is superior to 8.Bh6 transposing?
Note: Black's other main idea is b5, Qa5, Be6, b4, Nb8-d7-b6 in some move order. Here it does not matter very much, if White plays 8.h4 first or 8.Bh6.
  

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