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Poll Question: After 8.Qf3!? what is Black's best response.
bars   pie

8...cxb5    
  6 (11.5%)
8...Qc7    
  3 (5.8%)
8...h6    
  10 (19.2%)
8...Be7    
  14 (26.9%)
8...Rb8    
  17 (32.7%)
8...Bg4    
  0 (0.0%)
8...e4    
  2 (3.8%)




Total votes: 52
« Created by: TopNotch on: 09/22/06 at 19:32:24 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line (Read 25270 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #9 - 09/26/06 at 15:41:30
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I also thought 6 ...Bd7!? was OK when last I looked (mainly at some games of Skembris if memory serves). Maybe the mistake's on move six!?
  
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zulu144
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #8 - 09/26/06 at 15:18:17
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Markovich wrote on 09/26/06 at 12:13:13:
8...Rb8  9. Bd3 h6  10. Ne4 Nd5  11. b3 is regarded as good for White. 


11. b3 g6 12. Bb2 Bg7 13. Qg3 Nf4 14. Qxf4 exf4
15. Bxg7 f5 16. Bxh8 Kf7 17. Bc3 fxe4 18. Bxe4 Bf5 19. Bxf5 Qe7+ 20. Kd1 gxf5
21. Bxa5 Qc5 22. Bc3 Qxf2 23. Kc1 Qxg2 24. Rd1 f3 25. Na3 f2 26. Kb2 Qxh2 27.
Nc4 Re8 28. Bd4 Re2 29. Bxa7 h5 30. a4 Qg2 31. a5 1-0


  
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #7 - 09/26/06 at 12:13:13
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That game is quite impressive.  It isn't clear, after 8...h6, where Black made a mistake.  8...h6 is the theoretical move right now, since 8...Rb8  9. Bd3 h6  10. Ne4 Nd5  11. b3 is regarded as good for White.  Can it be that 5...Na5 is unsound?!  That would be a big change in chess theory. 

I imagine that considerable attention will turn to 8...Be7 now.
  

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TopNotch
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #6 - 09/25/06 at 23:02:36
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Quote:
If I may be forgiven an off-topic thought, does anyone know the current status of 6 ...Bd7!?. Possibly not an easy nut to crack? ...


Still playable to my knowledge, haven't checked the theory in awhile.

Only eleven votes so far? Didn't realise the Two Knights was so unpopular.

Tops Smiley
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #5 - 09/25/06 at 22:57:58
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If I may be forgiven an off-topic thought, does anyone know the current status of 6 ...Bd7!?. Possibly not an easy nut to crack? ...
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #4 - 09/25/06 at 20:21:41
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Here is the game, with notes by FM Steve Giddins. I also understand the game was analysed in Chess Today, an online magazine run by GM Alex Baburin.

Short,Nigel (2676) - Hebden,Mark (2532) [C58]
EU Championship Liverpool (10.1), 15.09.2006
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 Ng5 d5 5 exd5 Na5 6 Bb5+ c6 7 dxc6 bxc6 8 Qf3. This old move has for years been regarded as giving Black a strong initiative, but in recent times, the cold reality of computer analysis has made people realise that Black may just be a pawn down for not enough. John van der Wiel has been at the forefront of rehabilitating the move. 8...h6 9 Ne4 Nd5 10 Ba4. Van der Wiel prefers [10 Nbc3] here, but Short was following some analysis that he had done a couple of years ago, with the Ukrainian teenage super-talent, Sergey Kariakin. 10...Be7 11 d3 0–0 12 0–0 f5 13 Ng3 Be6 14 Re1 Bd6 15 c4 Ne7 16 Bd2 c5 17 Nc3 a6 18 Nd5 Nac6 19 Bxc6. This is the logical follow-up to White’s plan, which is to pressurise e5, but Fritz 9 is hot to trot with the strange move [19 Nh5!?]. Looking more closely, it does seem surprisingly strong. The knight will drop into f4 at some stage, exploiting the loose Black bishop on e6. 19...Nxc6 20 Bc3 Qe8 21 h3 Rd8 22 Re2 Bb8 23 Rae1 a5 24 a3 Nd4 25 Bxd4 cxd4 26 Nb6?! Here, the exchange sacrifice [26 Rxe5] comes strongly into consideration. 26...e4 27 dxe4 f4 28 Nf1 Qc6 29 Nd5 Qxc4 30 Nd2 Qb5 31 Qb3 Qxb3. Over the past few moves, White has lost most of his advantage. At this point, Black offered a draw, but this was declined. 32 Nxb3 Bxd5 33 exd5 Rxd5 34 Rd2 Be5 35 Nc1 a4 36 Nd3 Bd6 37 Rc2. Thanks to the knight on d3, White retains a small advantage. Black’s pawn on a4 is more vulnerable that White’s on b2, which is defended by the knight-blockader. 37...f3 38 g3 h5 39 Rc4 h4 40 g4 Ra5? Losing without much fight. A better try was [40...Rb8 41 Rxa4 Rb3] when White still has significant technical problems to solve. 41 Rxd4 Rf6 42 Ree4. Now a4 goes as well, and the rest is silence. 42...Bc7 43 Kf1 Rc6 44 Rxa4 Rxa4 45 Rxa4 Rd6 46 Ne1 Rd1 47 Re4 Rb1 48 Re8+ Kh7 49 Rf8 Bd6 50 Rxf3 Rxb2 51 Rc3 Be5 52 Rd3 Bb8 53 Nf3 Ba7 54 Rd2 Rb3 55 Kg2 Rxa3 56 Nxh4 Bb8 57 Nf3 Bf4 58 Rd4 g5 59 h4 1–0.

Hope the above sheds some light.

Tops Smiley
  

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Markovich
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #3 - 09/25/06 at 17:56:51
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TopNotch wrote on 09/22/06 at 19:32:24:
Recently Super GM Nigel Short has used the following line: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dc6 bc6 8.Qf3!? to crush life long Two Knights Defence expert GM Mark Hebden. A very smooth and impressive technical game by Nigel indeed.

Short was later quoted as saying that the Two Knights defence just loses a pawn!, and that anybody who played the line regularly as Black is taking their life in their hands. A powerful proclamation indeed.

On researching the theory of this line I discovered there is no clear consensus as to the most effective way to meet the hitherto underrated 8.Qf3!?.

Now the burning question is, could Nigel be correct or is this simply a case of winners Bravado. 

Thoughts?

Toppy Smiley


[url]http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.php?fen=r1bqkb1r/p4ppp/2p2n2/nB2p1N1/8/5Q2/PPPP1PPP/RNB1K2R w KQkq - 0 1[/url]


It is a sure sign that a system is good when the recommended method of playing against it keeps changing.  Not too long ago, 8. Be2 h6  9. Nf3 e4  10. Ne4 Bd3  11. d4 exd3  12. Nxd3 0-0  13. b3 was supposed to be the refutation of the Two Knights (at least it was according to Harding and some others).  Now it turns out that it's really 8. Qf3 that does the job.  Yeah, right. 

I haven't seen Short-Hebden, but if this particular move is evidence that Black "just loses a pawn," that is a little bit surprising, since White's side of this is risky and demanding.  If Black "just loses" a pawn, I would think there would be a simpler way of proving it.  I'll have to look at the game before I say anything more, but that is my first impression. 

Since it's supposed to be so critical, it would be nice if someone would post it.
  

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TopNotch
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #2 - 09/23/06 at 06:51:00
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Ohh yes I love these diagram thingies Smiley

They seem to visually enhance certain kinds of post quite nicely and allows the reader to quickly and painlessly zoom in on the essence of what is being discussed.

The Short-Hebden game must surely be included among the latest twic downloads.

Hebden chose 8...h6.

Wow, I noticed someone voted for 8...e4 - hmmm, perhaps that person won't mind elaborating a bit.

Tops Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #1 - 09/23/06 at 03:18:55
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I haven't had a chance to look over the line, but one thing is clear.

TN is getting hooked on diagrams! Grin

It's not a bad addiction, though (if anyone wants the unbiased Wink opinion of a fellow addict).

Do you have a link to the game?  Is it in one of the recent issues of TWIC?  (or maybe you'd prefer not to bias the voting)
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
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TopNotch
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I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

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Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
09/22/06 at 19:32:24
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Recently Super GM Nigel Short has used the following line: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dc6 bc6 8.Qf3!? to crush life long Two Knights Defence expert GM Mark Hebden. A very smooth and impressive technical game by Nigel indeed.

Short was later quoted as saying that the Two Knights defence just loses a pawn!, and that anybody who played the line regularly as Black is taking their life in their hands. A powerful proclamation indeed.

On researching the theory of this line I discovered there is no clear consensus as to the most effective way to meet the hitherto underrated 8.Qf3!?.

Now the burning question is, could Nigel be correct or is this simply a case of winners Bravado.  

Thoughts?

Toppy Smiley


  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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