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Poll Question: After 8.Qf3!? what is Black's best response.
bars   pie

8...cxb5    
  6 (11.5%)
8...Qc7    
  3 (5.8%)
8...h6    
  10 (19.2%)
8...Be7    
  14 (26.9%)
8...Rb8    
  17 (32.7%)
8...Bg4    
  0 (0.0%)
8...e4    
  2 (3.8%)




Total votes: 52
« Created by: TopNotch on: 09/22/06 at 19:32:24 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line (Read 25693 times)
TopNotch
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #24 - 06/07/08 at 17:43:44
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TopNotch wrote on 09/27/06 at 22:47:18:
Markovich wrote on 09/27/06 at 12:39:48:
TopNotch wrote on 09/26/06 at 23:19:57:
So far 8...Rb8 is the poll favorite, what's your vote Markovich?

Toppy Smiley


I'd like to say that I voted for 8...cxb5! and that I have private notes that justify it.

But in fact, I voted for 8...Rb8, only for the reason that I have played it often.  As a CC player I don't have to be totally up on all my theory (there are CC players who take a very different approach, but I not infrequently book up only after the game goes in some specific direction).  Looking at it again quite recently however, I'm not sure what Black has against Van der Wiel's idea which, I know, has been around for awhile.

I like my students to play the Two Knights, so I'll have to come up with something.  Since the inception of this thread, I've taken some time to look at 8...Be7, which appears to hold some promise.  One funny idea I looked at was 8...Be7  9. Bxc6+ Nxc6  10. Qxc6+ Bd7  11. Qf3!? (silicon likes this; Emms mentions 11. Qc4, which appears to have been played in a few games) 11...0-0  12. Nc3 Ng4  13. Nh3!?  (perhaps 13. h4 is better) 13...Nh6!? intending ...Nf5, ..Nd4.  


I tend to agree with you about 8...Be7, as it actually seems to give Black an extra tempo on all the other lines.

Despite Short's rather efficient win and cryptic remarks, I doubt 8.Qf3 will catch on among the rank and file or even with his GM colleagues, as White seems to be taking his life in his hands just as much as Black is in this line. However I would add the caveat, that if paired as Black against Nigel it would be prudent to choose another defence.

Topster Smiley  


Two years on I can report that in addition to myself: Julio Becerra; Joel Benjamin and Alexander Onischuk all consider 8...Be7 to be black's most promising line here, despite it only scoring 19% in this poll.

Does anyone have anything new to add or would anyone like to revise their position?

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #23 - 11/03/06 at 19:18:53
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But I did, and it's in the March '04 update.

You want the Sokolov-Kunte game: the line Davies finds is 6...Bd7 7.Qe2 Be7 8.Nc3 O-O 9.Bd7 Qd7 10.O-O Rfe8 11.Qe5  because 11..Ng4 12.Qg3 Bg5 13.h3 gets the piece back. (Or 12...Bd6 13.Qd3 Bh2 14.Kh1 "and Black is in serious trouble".) Black is a pawn down without enough to show for it.
  
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #22 - 11/03/06 at 09:31:57
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[quote author=Michael Ayton link=1158953544/0#5 date=1159225078]If I may be forgiven an off-topic thought, does anyone know the current status of 6 ...Bd7!?. [/quote]

If I recall correctly, Nigel Davies covered the move some time ago on the 1.e4 e5 page - and there was one line which looked iffy for Black. I can't remember how long ago this was, though, and I'm not sure I want to trawl through several years' worth of archives to check...
  
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #21 - 10/23/06 at 14:51:26
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[Event "Baden"]
[Site "Vienna"]
[Date "1980.??.??"]
[Round "14"]
[White "Van der Wiel,John TH"]
[Black "Gligoric,Svetozar"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C58"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 Qc7
9.Bd3 h6 10.Ne4 Nd5 11.Nbc3 Nb4 12.Ng3 Nxd3+ 13.Qxd3 Nb7 14.0-0 Bc5 15.Nce4 Be7 16.Qf3 Qd7
17.Qh5 Qe6 18.d3 0-0 19.f4 f5 20.Nc3 Bd6 21.Kh1 Bd7 22.fxe5 Bxe5 23.Bf4 Bxf4 24.Rxf4 Nd6
25.Raf1 c5 26.R4f2 c4 27.Re2 Qf7 28.Qxf7+ Rxf7 29.dxc4 Nxc4 30.b3 Nb6 31.Rd2 Re8 32.a4 Re5
33.Nge2 g5 34.Nd4 Rfe7 35.Kg1 f4 36.h3 Kg7 37.Rd3 Be8 38.Nf3 Rc5 39.b4 Rc4 40.Nd2 Rc8
41.a5 Bg6 42.Rdf3 Nc4 43.Nxc4 Rxc4 44.g3 fxg3 45.Rxg3 Rec7 46.Nb5 Rd7 47.c3 Re4 48.Nd4 a6
49.Kh2 Re5 50.Rf2 Re1 51.Rg1 Re3 52.h4 Rxc3 53.Ne6+ Kg8 54.hxg5 Rcd3 55.Nf4 R3d6 56.gxh6 Kh7
57.Nxg6 Rxg6 58.Rxg6 Kxg6 59.Rf4 Rd6 60.Rh4 Kh7 61.Kg3 Rf6 62.Kg4  1-0

  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #20 - 10/23/06 at 14:30:49
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I think van der Wiel started playing Qf3 earlier than the nineties. If I remember well in one of his first outings, Spasski (an experienced 1..e5 player) wasnt impressed by "the cold light of day" and won convincingly.
  
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #19 - 10/23/06 at 11:21:00
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what is "depth 20" ?
  
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #18 - 10/21/06 at 20:02:16
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To depth 20 , Rybka 2.1c gives variation
8...Be7 9 Bxc6+ Nxc6 10 Qxc6+ Bd7 11 Qf3 O-O 12 O-O Ng4 13 Ne4 f5 14 Ng3 e4 15 Qb3+
with an evaluation of +0.01 that means complete equality : Black compensation is worth the invested material , but not more
  
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #17 - 10/20/06 at 12:44:45
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TopNotch wrote on 09/25/06 at 20:21:41:
Here is the game, with notes by FM Steve Giddins. I also understand the game was analysed in Chess Today, an online magazine run by GM Alex Baburin.

Short,Nigel (2676) - Hebden,Mark (2532) [C58]
EU Championship Liverpool (10.1), 15.09.2006
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 Ng5 d5 5 exd5 Na5 6 Bb5+ c6 7 dxc6 bxc6 8 Qf3. This old move has for years been regarded as giving Black a strong initiative, but in recent times, the cold reality of computer analysis has made people realise that Black may just be a pawn down for not enough. John van der Wiel has been at the forefront of rehabilitating the move.


If I remember well, John Van der Wiel started playing this move in the early 90's, long before computers where strong enough to give a "definite" truth about this variation (will they ever be able to ?)
wich makes mr Giddins first comment a little out of place.
  
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #16 - 10/18/06 at 10:15:36
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i like 8...Bb7 9.Be2 Bd6 10. Nc3 0-0 11. d3 c5

frits doesn't like 8...Bb7, but actually scores much better with black than white when playing it out. its very hard to hold back black's play if he is patient, although the position is complex enough that both sides have good chances. i certainly wouldn't call it just giving up a pawn for nothing, even with other 8th moves.
  
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #15 - 10/14/06 at 09:23:29
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Is 8 ...Qb6 considered as refuted ? I didnt see it in the poll ... Nonetheless , it's not my favourite at all
8 ...Bb7 should be the one since I never beat it !
Could anyone show me the way ? Thanks
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #14 - 09/27/06 at 22:47:18
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Markovich wrote on 09/27/06 at 12:39:48:
TopNotch wrote on 09/26/06 at 23:19:57:
So far 8...Rb8 is the poll favorite, what's your vote Markovich?

Toppy Smiley


I'd like to say that I voted for 8...cxb5! and that I have private notes that justify it.

But in fact, I voted for 8...Rb8, only for the reason that I have played it often.  As a CC player I don't have to be totally up on all my theory (there are CC players who take a very different approach, but I not infrequently book up only after the game goes in some specific direction).  Looking at it again quite recently however, I'm not sure what Black has against Van der Wiel's idea which, I know, has been around for awhile.

I like my students to play the Two Knights, so I'll have to come up with something.  Since the inception of this thread, I've taken some time to look at 8...Be7, which appears to hold some promise.  One funny idea I looked at was 8...Be7  9. Bxc6+ Nxc6  10. Qxc6+ Bd7  11. Qf3!? (silicon likes this; Emms mentions 11. Qc4, which appears to have been played in a few games) 11...0-0  12. Nc3 Ng4  13. Nh3!?  (perhaps 13. h4 is better) 13...Nh6!? intending ...Nf5, ..Nd4.  


I tend to agree with you about 8...Be7, as it actually seems to give Black an extra tempo on all the other lines.

Despite Short's rather efficient win and cryptic remarks, I doubt 8.Qf3 will catch on among the rank and file or even with his GM colleagues, as White seems to be taking his life in his hands just as much as Black is in this line. However I would add the caveat, that if paired as Black against Nigel it would be prudent to choose another defence.

Topster Smiley   
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #13 - 09/27/06 at 12:39:48
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TopNotch wrote on 09/26/06 at 23:19:57:
So far 8...Rb8 is the poll favorite, what's your vote Markovich?

Toppy Smiley


I'd like to say that I voted for 8...cxb5! and that I have private notes that justify it.

But in fact, I voted for 8...Rb8, only for the reason that I have played it often.  As a CC player I don't have to be totally up on all my theory (there are CC players who take a very different approach, but I not infrequently book up only after the game goes in some specific direction).  Looking at it again quite recently however, I'm not sure what Black has against Van der Wiel's idea which, I know, has been around for awhile.

I like my students to play the Two Knights, so I'll have to come up with something.  Since the inception of this thread, I've taken some time to look at 8...Be7, which appears to hold some promise.  One funny idea I looked at was 8...Be7  9. Bxc6+ Nxc6  10. Qxc6+ Bd7  11. Qf3!? (silicon likes this; Emms mentions 11. Qc4, which appears to have been played in a few games) 11...0-0  12. Nc3 Ng4  13. Nh3!?  (perhaps 13. h4 is better) 13...Nh6!? intending ...Nf5, ..Nd4.
  

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TopNotch
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #12 - 09/26/06 at 23:19:57
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Markovich wrote on 09/26/06 at 18:39:39:
Quote:
Markovich wrote on 09/26/06 at 12:13:13:
8...Rb8  9. Bd3 h6  10. Ne4 Nd5  11. b3 is regarded as good for White.  


11. b3 g6 12. Bb2 Bg7 13. Qg3 Nf4 14. Qxf4 exf4
15. Bxg7 f5 16. Bxh8 Kf7 17. Bc3 fxe4 18. Bxe4 Bf5 19. Bxf5 Qe7+ 20. Kd1 gxf5
21. Bxa5 Qc5 22. Bc3 Qxf2 23. Kc1 Qxg2 24. Rd1 f3 25. Na3 f2 26. Kb2 Qxh2 27.
Nc4 Re8 28. Bd4 Re2 29. Bxa7 h5 30. a4 Qg2 31. a5 1-0




What, is that queen sac sound?  Whose game is that?  Also 13. Ba3!? is an awkward move to meet.


Van der Wiel has played this Queen Sac, but he was not the first. Van der Wiel has also tested 13.Ba3 but considers it dubious.

So far 8...Rb8 is the poll favorite, what's your vote Markovich?

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Markovich
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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #11 - 09/26/06 at 18:39:39
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Quote:
Markovich wrote on 09/26/06 at 12:13:13:
8...Rb8  9. Bd3 h6  10. Ne4 Nd5  11. b3 is regarded as good for White. 


11. b3 g6 12. Bb2 Bg7 13. Qg3 Nf4 14. Qxf4 exf4
15. Bxg7 f5 16. Bxh8 Kf7 17. Bc3 fxe4 18. Bxe4 Bf5 19. Bxf5 Qe7+ 20. Kd1 gxf5
21. Bxa5 Qc5 22. Bc3 Qxf2 23. Kc1 Qxg2 24. Rd1 f3 25. Na3 f2 26. Kb2 Qxh2 27.
Nc4 Re8 28. Bd4 Re2 29. Bxa7 h5 30. a4 Qg2 31. a5 1-0




What, is that queen sac sound?  Whose game is that?  Also 13. Ba3!? is an awkward move to meet.
  

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Re: Two Knights Defence - 8.Qf3!? Line
Reply #10 - 09/26/06 at 18:38:44
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[quote author=Michael Ayton link=1158953544/0#9 date=1159285290]I also thought 6 ...Bd7!? was OK when last I looked (mainly at some games of Skembris if memory serves). Maybe the mistake's on move six!?[/quote]

Or five.
  

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