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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Budapest Ideas (Read 66286 times)
Scholar
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #133 - 08/11/07 at 22:09:10
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Excellent, back to chess.

I don't find this position that disagreeable for Black, and in my limited database, Black scores quite well.  Although 13...Nxf2 is probably too enterprising, Black can play simply with 13...Nc5 and perhaps 14...Ne5.  There are some other possibilities, of course, but this plan is not under fire to my knowledge.  There is the usual lack of high-level examples, but something like following gives some indication of the play.  Black's pieces have good squares.

The most critical lines are the g3 ones, I think.

Vukic,M (2470) - Rogers,I (2450) [A52]
Reggio Emilia (2), 1983

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 Qe7 8.Qd5 f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.Qd3 d6 11.e3 0-0 12.Be2 Ne4 13.Nd4 Nc5 14.Qd1 Ne5 15.0-0 Kh8 16.Rc1 Bd7 17.Qc2 Qf7 18.Bxe5 dxe5 19.Nf3 Qe7 20.Nd2 Bc6 21.Bf3 e4 22.Be2 Rf6 23.Nb3 Rh6 24.Nxc5 Qxc5 25.Rcd1 Qe5 26.h3 Qg5 27.Bg4 Rg6 28.Qe2 Qa5 ½-½
  
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Udav18
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #132 - 08/11/07 at 10:18:04
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I had really to be more precise,sorry for that,but it was late ,when I wrote this post and was to lazy to write down the variations.
But ok E.g
After 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3  Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 Qe7 8. Qd5
f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qd3 d6 11. e3 O-O 12. Be2 Ne4
whte has the option to play  13. Nd4!
insted of 13.0-0,which would lead to the better line for black.
If the N was still on c3, Nd4 would be not so strong,because black would simply take on d4 and,white wouldnt have the move bxc.
But I have to agree with you that 6...Bxc3 is also a really good option,maybe there are some better possibilities for black in this variation,though I didnt find any so far.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #131 - 08/11/07 at 00:39:03
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I don't really have anything to add to the ...0-0-0 discussion, so I won't.  If any interesting lines are posted, I'll look at them, but for me, it seems a nonstarter.

Udav18 wrote on 08/10/07 at 21:38:47:
The difference,between taking on c3 in the 6th move or as in the variation with a later Bxc3 is,that in the second case black nearly forces white to the discussed positions ,but after 6...Bxc3 not only black is flexible ,but white is more flexible ,too.The problem is that black cant use his flexibility,because there arent any better moves for him(or can you find any better moves?)But white has many posibiities to cut the lines and go for something better.
Just check the differences with the comp.,if you dont trust me Wink

Emphasis added.

I've already posted (twice now) one reason that Black might prefer the 6...Bc3 move order.  I invite you to reply directly to that, or provide White's options in the 6...Bxc3 line, are you referring to 10.Qg5 or some similarly-favored computer move?  I am not impressed.

I will give a deviation for you to consider, though: 6...Qe7 7.Rc1.

At any rate, I am already growing bored with this discussion.  Provide some moves to back up your assertions; they don't really make sense to me.  If you have a reason, just give it; I have better things to do then make guesses as to what your computer thinks is an improvement on theory.

N.B.  "Possible"  I'm not usually a spelling nit, but you've done this a few times already.
  
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Chessguy
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #130 - 08/10/07 at 23:24:28
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Would be fun with some games in these positions between for example Udav18 as black and some of the other humans who clearly prefer white here as white.
  
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Udav18
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #129 - 08/10/07 at 21:38:47
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"lines I.A and I.B transpose at move 13 to the lines with 6...Bxc3, so please make more explicit why you are opposed to that move

6. Nc3 Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 Qe7 8. Qd5 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qd3 d6 11. g3 Ne5 is one possibility to improve on transposing (which is why one should consider the more flexible move order)

line II -- the moves d6/Bd7 are not so terrible, but the idea of 0-0-0 against everything is -- Dink is spot on here, 11.a3 Bxd2 12.Qxd2 0-0-0 13.Qc3 and White is much better, with c5 the most important and immediate threat.  In the long-term, White's pawns also get their first.  Now, 11.a3 Bxd2 12.Qxd2 Ng6 13.Bg3?! h5 might lead to lines where Black can consider castling queenside, but this is another story; I still prefer the lines I discussed earlier in the thread."


The difference,between taking on c3 in the 6th move or as in the variation with a later Bxc3 is,that in the second case black nearly forces white to the discussed positions ,but after 6...Bxc3 not only black is flexible ,but white is more flexible ,too.The problem is that black cant use his flexibility,because there arent any better moves for him(or can you find any better moves?)But white has many posibiities to cut the lines and go for something better.
Just check the differences with the comp.,if you dont trust me Wink
Also I dont understand yet,why 0-0-0 is so bad as you all mentioned.OK after Qc3 black playes f6 and I dont see any reason why white has to be better.Black has enough counterplay on the KS.
If you say that white has the easier play,then I have to agree,but I dont see any advanatge for white,if black knows what he has to do.
After the lines with 0-0-0 I played in fact about 10 games now against Fritz10 and often ,they ended up in a equal ending.
OK let us analyze the position:
White has
-the Bishoppair
-more space in the centre
-allready pushed c4 pawn
-no weaknesses on the KS
Black has some dynamic advantages:
-the d7 Bishop can come to c6 and will stay better as the e2 Bishop for the attak.
-the e5 Night is placed very well(White can neutralize this advantage by loosing his Bishoppair advantage)
-g5 is coming with a tempo
-black has no weaknesses on the QS

I think that is enough compensation.This analyzes are similar to Najdorf-analyzes,where white has often space,good-placed peaces ,but black has dynamic advantages as compensation.
Ok I might be also wrong,because I am not a super GM and comp. make also a lot of mistakes.



  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #128 - 08/10/07 at 18:50:32
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Udav18 wrote on 08/10/07 at 09:56:41:
Scholar wrote on 08/10/07 at 03:30:59:
I'm a little late rejoining this thread, but as an occasional Budapest practitioner, I'll add some thoughts.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3

All of the discussion here follows 6...Qe7.  Why not 6...Bxc3?  Perhaps this is a matter of taste, but considering that Udav18 gave lines which focused on doubling that pawn with a later Bxc3, one wonders why Black doesn't do it at the most convenient time.

The lines seem to transpose, but I see no reason to prefer Udav's move order, especially since Black gets some other options which may prove to be stronger.

In the 6.Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 lines the idea of d6/Bd7/0-0-0 seems somewhat misguided as for Black --can castling queenside ever be good? -- but I'll have to take a closer look before commenting more.  9...0-0 seems entirely satisfactory to me from Black's point of view.

Edit:  Another possibility is 11...Ne5 in
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nc3 Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 Qe7 8. Qd5 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qd3 d6 11. g3 Ne5
I am not sure that this is an improvement, but it should be part of the discussion.


6...Bxc3 leads to the "old" variation ,which is known as better for white.The new idea was not to take the N on c3 and to use later this Night for a pin and so to get better chances.
Black has sadly no " other options which may prove to be stronger."


OK.  Here's my question for you -- the two lines have the possibility to transpose, since as you recognized yourself, taking on c3 with the knight is too slow.  So one has the possibility of two move orders, the old, direct way, and a new less forcing method.  In the absence of a specific line discrediting the 6...Bxc3 lines, I will repeat my claim that it makes more sense.  As far as being stronger, you will note that I provided one idea, albeit without much analysis.  The point is that 6...Bxc3 is more flexible, if doubling the pawns on c3 is your aim.

Quote:
The idea 0-0-0 is  a matter of taste,0-0 is also ok,but in my view 0-0-0 gives black more chances to win,(but also to lose)
After 9...0-0 both sides have very little chances to win.


I agree with Dink here, this is coffeehouse chess.  Castling queenside is positional suicide.


Quote:
11...Ne5 was in fact the idea of not to take on c3 too early.

I want to post again the summary of the variations we found out to give you the possibility to join this discussion,with the knowledge and the standing we have now.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+
a 6.Nc3 Qe7 7.Qd5 f6 8.exf Nxf! 9.Qd3 0-0 

A 10.g3! d6 11. Bg2 Ne4 12.0-0 Bxc3! 13.bxc Nc5 14.Qe3! Be6 15. Nd4! Qd7! 16. Nxe6 Nxe6 += 
B 10.e3?! d6 11.Be2 Ne4 12.0-0 Bxc3 13.bxc Bf5 14.Qd5+ Kh8! 15.Rac1 g5! 16. Bg3 h5! 17.Nd4 Bg6 =+

b 6. Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 9...d6 10.0-0 Bd7!?

A 11.a3 Bxd2 12. Qxd2 0-0-0  =
B11.Nb3 0-0-0 = 
C11.Nf3 Ng6 12.Bg3 0-0 = 
D11.Nb1 Qe6! 12.a3 Ba5 13.b4 Bb6 14.Qc2! 0-0 (+=) or (=)



No need to repeat yourself, chessfriend; I read the thread before I replied.  I see that you did not give me the same courtesy.  To summarize:

lines I.A and I.B transpose at move 13 to the lines with 6...Bxc3, so please make more explicit why you are opposed to that move

6. Nc3 Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 Qe7 8. Qd5 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qd3 d6 11. g3 Ne5 is one possibility to improve on transposing (which is why one should consider the more flexible move order)

line II -- the moves d6/Bd7 are not so terrible, but the idea of 0-0-0 against everything is -- Dink is spot on here, 11.a3 Bxd2 12.Qxd2 0-0-0 13.Qc3 and White is much better, with c5 the most important and immediate threat.  In the long-term, White's pawns also get their first.  Now, 11.a3 Bxd2 12.Qxd2 Ng6 13.Bg3?! h5 might lead to lines where Black can consider castling queenside, but this is another story; I still prefer the lines I discussed earlier in the thread.

@SF -- Thanks!
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #127 - 08/10/07 at 16:59:28
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Quote:
I want to post again the summary of the variations we found out to give you the posibility to join this discussion,with the knowledge and the standing we have now.

Emphasis is mine.  I didn't change the wording.


Please understand:  Not all of us agree with this.  The thread was started last year and is titled "Budapest Ideas".  Please feel free to discuss your ideas as well as those of others.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #126 - 08/10/07 at 15:32:14
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This Q-side castling is just coffee-house nonsense. There is no sound basis for opposite-side castling in this position, except a desire to arbitrarily add some 'spice' to the position, coffee-house style.

White's play is so much easier than Black's, for example:
11) a3 Bxd2
12) Qxd2 000 (your assessment: '='; my assessment ' Grin'
13) Qc3, followed by Rac1, Rfd1 and c5, or similar. Its going to take some fancy footwork by Black to stay afloat.

(I'm not sure that 11 a3, conceding the tempo battle is best, but 0-0-0 fully justifies White's play.)
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #125 - 08/10/07 at 09:56:41
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Scholar wrote on 08/10/07 at 03:30:59:
I'm a little late rejoining this thread, but as an occasional Budapest practitioner, I'll add some thoughts.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3

All of the discussion here follows 6...Qe7.  Why not 6...Bxc3?  Perhaps this is a matter of taste, but considering that Udav18 gave lines which focused on doubling that pawn with a later Bxc3, one wonders why Black doesn't do it at the most convenient time.

The lines seem to transpose, but I see no reason to prefer Udav's move order, especially since Black gets some other options which may prove to be stronger.

In the 6.Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 lines the idea of d6/Bd7/0-0-0 seems somewhat misguided as for Black --can castling queenside ever be good? -- but I'll have to take a closer look before commenting more.  9...0-0 seems entirely satisfactory to me from Black's point of view.

Edit:  Another possibility is 11...Ne5 in
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nc3 Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 Qe7 8. Qd5 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qd3 d6 11. g3 Ne5
I am not sure that this is an improvement, but it should be part of the discussion.


6...Bxc3 leads to the "old" variation ,which is known as better for white.The new idea was not to take the N on c3 and to use later this Night for a pin and so to get better chances.
Black has sadly no " other options which may prove to be stronger."

The idea 0-0-0 is  a matter of taste,0-0 is also ok,but in my view 0-0-0 gives black more chances to win,(but also to lose)
After 9...0-0 both sides have very little chances to win.

11...Ne5 was in fact the idea of not to take on c3 too early.

I want to post again the summary of the variations we found out to give you the posibility to join this discussion,with the knowledge and the standing we have now.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+
a 6.Nc3 Qe7 7.Qd5 f6 8.exf Nxf! 9.Qd3 0-0 

A 10.g3! d6 11. Bg2 Ne4 12.0-0 Bxc3! 13.bxc Nc5 14.Qe3! Be6 15. Nd4! Qd7! 16. Nxe6 Nxe6 += 
B 10.e3?! d6 11.Be2 Ne4 12.0-0 Bxc3 13.bxc Bf5 14.Qd5+ Kh8! 15.Rac1 g5! 16. Bg3 h5! 17.Nd4 Bg6 =+

b 6. Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 9...d6 10.0-0 Bd7!?

A 11.a3 Bxd2 12. Qxd2 0-0-0  =
B11.Nb3 0-0-0 = 
C11.Nf3 Ng6 12.Bg3 0-0 = 
D11.Nb1 Qe6! 12.a3 Ba5 13.b4 Bb6 14.Qc2! 0-0 (+=) or (=)

  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #124 - 08/10/07 at 05:58:07
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BTW,

It's good to see you back in the forum, and congrats on breaking 500 posts!
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #123 - 08/10/07 at 05:57:09
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Scholar,

Your ideas have more teeth than have been mentioned recently.  I was happy as White against Qe7 and Bd7 ideas.  I'll have to look more closely at your suggestions.  Your moves fight more directly for the initiative and I think that's essential if Black is to have a prayer in this opening.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #122 - 08/10/07 at 03:30:59
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I'm a little late rejoining this thread, but as an occasional Budapest practitioner, I'll add some thoughts.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3

All of the discussion here follows 6...Qe7.  Why not 6...Bxc3?  Perhaps this is a matter of taste, but considering that Udav18 gave lines which focused on doubling that pawn with a later Bxc3, one wonders why Black doesn't do it at the most convenient time.

The lines seem to transpose, but I see no reason to prefer Udav's move order, especially since Black gets some other options which may prove to be stronger.

In the 6.Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 lines the idea of d6/Bd7/0-0-0 seems somewhat misguided as for Black -- can castling queenside ever be good? -- but I'll have to take a closer look before commenting more.  9...0-0 seems entirely satisfactory to me from Black's point of view.

Edit:  Another possibility is 11...Ne5 in
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nc3 Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 Qe7 8. Qd5 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qd3 d6 11. g3 Ne5
I am not sure that this is an improvement, but it should be part of the discussion.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #121 - 08/09/07 at 17:46:21
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It seems,that after 10.Ne4 black just has to go for Bf8.I dont like this move,but in the view of Frit10 and Rybka2.3.2 black is fine.And indeed I couldnt find a way for white to go for a win .Black has allways somewhere counterplay,but as black I feel not free and the fact that the B ishop on f8 will be closed with d6 is also unpleasent.Is here anyone,who can try to motivate me in this position and who can find some good plans for black? Undecided
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #120 - 08/09/07 at 13:50:29
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Alas I am not going to help you (to break that barrier), as I always have found 4.Nf3 Bc5 5.e3 a bit artificial. In my ancient notes I have 10.Ne4 Bf8 as in a game Brenninkmeijer-Piket. I can imagine that withdrawing this bishop is not to your taste.

Well,in my opinion white has to waste time.Of course he drives the Bishop away with tempo.However the Bishop wanted to go to b6 anyway and black had to waste two tempos to do that.By pushing him away white waste time to help black with his plan.
That was in fact my general idea.


Granted, but similarly White wants to play a3 and b4 anyway and the bishop on b6 is also a target. So you cannot say White wastes tempi.
The final verdict has to be: we will have to wait seeing this stuff practized in games; until then we agree to disagree.

Thanks, it was fun.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #119 - 08/09/07 at 10:50:58
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Why?No,I would like to breach the 200-replies-      barrier  Grin
  
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