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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Budapest Ideas (Read 67580 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #88 - 08/04/07 at 18:37:51
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Ok, 13...a4 is a bit annoying.  But if Black is spending all his time pushing pawns on the q-side and not developing anything in the way of threats, White should be able to take advantage of this and play effectively in the center.

I have at least three candidate moves that do just that:  

14.Bxe5 Qxe5 (which I think is probably better than dxe5) 15.Bf3 and White is probably going to win a pawn without giving Black any real counterplay.

14.Rc1 threatening 15.Ne4 and 15.Bxe5.  14.Rc1 f5!? (probably more to the point than 14...0-0) creates weaknesses that can probably be exploited. 15.Nd5 Qd8 and now 16.b4 ab3 17.Qb3 Ra3 18.Qb7 Bb6 19.Be5! Ra7 20.Nc7+ Qc7 21.Qc7 Rc7 (or Bc7 22.Bg7) 22.Bd6 wins for White.

14.Ne4 and White simply plays for the advantage in the center.

Of course, these lines were made without computers, so I'm sure there will be improvements.  However, it's a good starting point for showing how difficult Black's game is.
  
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Chessguy
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #87 - 08/04/07 at 12:18:19
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MNb wrote on 08/04/07 at 03:16:25:
As 11.Nb1 a5 12.a3 Bc5 13.Nc3 a4 is slightly annoying, I propose 13.b3 first. I don't see how Black can make any progress. White's plan, knight to d5 and preparing b3-b4, is slow but effective.


Actually I think it is better for white to leave the b2 pawn and not play b3. In many variations it just gives black the possibility of a4 after b3. Especially in those variations where white plays Ne4xc5 and black has played dxc5. Deep Fritz 10 also assesses the variations without b3 slightly better for white.

I agree that there is the dual purpose of Nb1, to get it to d5. It seems that black has a pretty solid variation though. Pretty difficult for white to win. Not what Udav18 wants I guess.. By the way about computers analyzing, I think it says something about the quality of the position how good it scores for whit/black. Lots of computer games from one starting position may say something about the true quality of position? The best may be human games maybe, but since they are quite few on a high level, maybe computer games can add at least something.
  
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MNb
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #86 - 08/04/07 at 03:16:25
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As 11.Nb1 a5 12.a3 Bc5 13.Nc3 a4 is slightly annoying, I propose 13.b3 first. I don't see how Black can make any progress. White's plan, knight to d5 and preparing b3-b4, is slow but effective.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #85 - 08/04/07 at 02:21:48
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There is a second point to Nb1 apart from merely avoiding the capture:

The knight will be well placed on c3 and has gone from b1-c3-e4-d6! in at least one game.  ...a5 allows White to play a3 Bc5 Nc3 without really losing tempi because of the various Knight moves, the two Bishop moves, and ...a5.

Yes, ...a5 is a move that Black often makes anyway but here it's committing Black to a dour defensive struggle rather than the sort of counter-attack Black dreams of when playing the Budapest.
  
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Chessguy
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #84 - 08/03/07 at 23:45:13
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To me it seems after 11. Nb1 that 11... a5 is a natural move to stall the white queenside expansion. In my eyes although the purpose of Nb1 is to avoid Bxd2, it seems a bit time consuming.
  
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MNb
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #83 - 08/03/07 at 20:44:23
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Same with me. I always remove comp-comp games after downloading TWIC.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 d6 10.0-0 Bd7!? 11.Nb1 Qe6 12.a3 Ba5 13.Qd5 += (I think) and so is 12.a3 Bc5 13.Nc3 0-0 (you are not going to castle queenside, are you?) 14.Nd5.

It is always the same with those variations, where Black trades space for activity. White annihilates Black's counterplay and takes over the initiative, though precise play is required. My problem with the Budapest is, that Black has no counterblow in the centre available.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #82 - 08/03/07 at 19:46:16
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@Meat:

Agreed!  Chess games between computers leave me cold.
  
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Meat
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #81 - 08/03/07 at 18:43:58
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Quote:
If anyone want to make the same with another engine,it would be really cool.


Brain 1.0 would be my first choice.
  
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Udav18
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #80 - 08/03/07 at 11:13:55
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I think Nb1 is also a really good move ,so lets analyze it ,too.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 9...d6 10.0-0 Bd7!?

a 11.a3 Bxd2 12. Qxd2 0-0-0 
b 11.Nb3 0-0-0 
c 11.Nf3 Ng6 12.Bg3 0-0 

d11.Nb1 Qe6(!)
If you agree to 11...Qe6 ,I would like to take this move as the main response,because I couldnt find anything better.
In the next few days I will show some games played by Rybka2.3.2 against Rybka2.3.2(I couldnt find a way to make a mach between Rybka and Fritz10 starting from the positions I wanted.But there is a way to let one engine continue a game from every position.
The time for every game is  1h.
If anyone want to make the same with another engine,it would be really cool.

  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #79 - 08/03/07 at 10:42:43
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/03/07 at 00:31:52:
FYI:  Here's a game that combined Black attacking White's kingside and castling Queenside from Udav's starting position.  



Karolyi,T (2440) - Shrentzel,M (2315) [A52]
Tel-Aviv BIKURI Tel Aviv, 1990

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 d6 10.0-0 Bd7 11.Nb1!? (This has not been listed as an option yet.) g5 (why waste time castling when you can start the attack immediately?) 12.Bg3 h5 13.a3 Ba5 14.b4 Bb6 15.Nc3 c6 16.Ne4 Bc7 17.c5 dxc5 18.bxc5 h4 19.Nd6+ Bxd6 20.cxd6 Qf6 21.Bxe5 Qxe5 22.Qb3 0-0-0 23.Ba6 bxa6 24.Rab1 Qb5 25.Qc3 1-0


Yes, Black blundered, but the position was pretty dire because the attack ws still too slow.


Strangely enough I played against the same guy (FM Shrentzel) just five months ago in a league game, but against me he answered 10.0-0 with Bxd2, not allowing 11.Nb1 (which I was unlikely to find anyway). I got a tiny edge after 11.Qxd2 Bd7 12.Rac1 0-0 13.c5 but the game ended in a draw nevertheless.
  
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Udav18
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #78 - 08/03/07 at 10:28:18
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11.Nb1!? is a nice positional move.
I analyzed it a bit and it might be that 11...Qe6(!) is a strong positional response.
Why Qe6?
1.It attaks c4 and because of this ,it slows down the QS attak.
2.After Nc3 there is often the annoying move Nd5,which attaks the Queen .
3.Now the queen is placed really well and can react quickly and flexible.

But I am not sure yet,if this is the best move in this position.
Anyhow 11...Qe6 gives black good attaking chances I would say.
However, 11...g5 seems to be a mistake,which I would have surely made in a realy game,without analyzing this position.
This attak is indeed too slow compared to whites attak on the QS.











  
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MNb
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #77 - 08/03/07 at 02:31:36
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Thanks, both Chessguy and Smyslov_Fan.
Giving up the pair of bishops voluntarily in an halfopen position always looks like admitting strategic failure to me. So if 10...Bxd2 really is best, then my opinion is a sound, longlasting +=.
I have found two games, in which Black did better after 10...Bd7 11.Nb1:

Robertsson,M - Bogdanov,D (2090) [A52]
Copenhagen op 16 (7), 1994
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Bb4+ 5.Nd2 Nc6 6.Ngf3 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 d6 10.0–0 Bd7 11.Nb1 c6 12.a3 Ba5 13.b4 Bc7 14.Nc3 0–0 15.Bg3 f5 16.Qd4 Be6 17.f3 a5 18.e4 f4 19.Bf2 axb4 20.axb4 Rad8 21.Rfd1 Qf7 22.c5 dxc5 23.Qxc5 b6 0–1

Critical must be 12.Qb3 a5 13.a3 Bc5 14.Qxb7 0-0 15.Qb3. Fritz judges, that Black has some compensation, but I don't see it. Sure, pawn b2 is a bit weak, but is that really a problem in the long run?

Morss,M - Mousessian,J [A52]
corr 1996
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 d6 10.0–0 Bd7 11.Nb1 Ba5 12.a3 Qf6 13.Ra2 Bb6 14.Nc3 ½–½

Here I only can admit, that this game goes beyond my understanding.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #76 - 08/03/07 at 00:58:02
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Black's most usual response to 10.0-0 is Bxd2.  This makes sense considering that the N turns out stronger than the dark-squared Bishop most of the time.  It also gives Black the flexibility of holding off the decision to castle (either side) for the moment.  I think this is a better way for Black to play.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #75 - 08/03/07 at 00:31:52
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FYI:  Here's a game that combined Black attacking White's kingside and castling Queenside from Udav's starting position.  



Karolyi,T (2440) - Shrentzel,M (2315) [A52]
Tel-Aviv BIKURI Tel Aviv, 1990

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 d6 10.0-0 Bd7 11.Nb1!? (This has not been listed as an option yet.) g5 (why waste time castling when you can start the attack immediately?) 12.Bg3 h5 13.a3 Ba5 14.b4 Bb6 15.Nc3 c6 16.Ne4 Bc7 17.c5 dxc5 18.bxc5 h4 19.Nd6+ Bxd6 20.cxd6 Qf6 21.Bxe5 Qxe5 22.Qb3 0-0-0 23.Ba6 bxa6 24.Rab1 Qb5 25.Qc3 1-0


Yes, Black blundered, but the position was pretty dire because the attack ws still too slow.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #74 - 08/02/07 at 20:57:29
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1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 9...d6 10.0-0 Bd7!?

a 11.a3 Bxd2 12. Qxd2 0-0-0 
b 11.Nb3 0-0-0 
c 11.Nf3 Ng6 12.Bg3 0-0

Maybe this is it?
  
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