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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Budapest Ideas (Read 61521 times)
Chessguy
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #118 - 08/09/07 at 10:29:15
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Maybe you should start a new thread on 4 Nf3 then?
  
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Udav18
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #117 - 08/09/07 at 10:17:44
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"1. to waste time to drive the Bishop away,that he cant take this Knight.
Not true. The moves a3 and b4 go with tempo, as the bishop has to move as well. In fact this very bishop is the main target of White's strategy."


Well,in my opinion white has to waste time.Of course he drives the Bishop away with tempo.However the Bishop wanted to go to b6 anyway and black had to waste two tempos to do that.By pushing him away white waste time to help black with his plan.
That was in fact my general idea.

I would like to stop analyzing the Bf4 line,because it is impossible to analyze all the variations.By the way we are searching now on move 17.!
I think it is much better to know ideas instead of moves.
I would really like to start analyzing 4.Nf3 now,if everybody agree.

There is a way for black to build up an attak.
Eg.
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Nf3 Bc5 5. e3 Nc6 6.Be2 Ngxe5 7. Nxe5 Nxe5 8. O-O O-O 9. Nc3 Re8 10. b3 a5 11. Bb2 Ra6
I have analyzed this a lot and it seems,that black has more chances to win.However there is a line with Qd5+Ne4 where white can equalize or maybe get a slight advantage.

But actually I want to analyze the very annoying 10.Ne4
Suddanly black has to move his bishop to an unpleasent position and ,if black wants to play the plan a5,Ra6,Rh6 there is the move
c4-c5,which makes sure that black cannot play Ra6.
If there will be no way tio attak on the KS ,black will have a bad position.So I really need some new ideas here,otherwise this variation will force me some time to quit the Bpg. Cry
  
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MNb
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #116 - 08/09/07 at 02:19:07
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You are right. I thought White would have problems playing Nb1-c3, but that is not the case: 11.Nb1 Qe6 12.a3 Ba5 13.b4 Bb6 14.Qc2 0-0 15.Rd1 Rae8/Rfe8 (f5? 16.c5) 16.Nc3 Nxc4? 17.Nd5 Ne5 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.Qc5 +-. 15...Bc6 16.Nc3 Nxc4 17.b5 Bd7 18.Nd5 is the same. Even after 15...Rac8 16.Nc3 Nxc4 17.a4 a5 18.Nd5 White has good play.
  

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Chessguy
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #115 - 08/08/07 at 21:52:00
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After 14 Qc2 I agree that 0-0 is better than 0-0-0. However 15. c5 is a bad move. I suggest instead 15. Rd1. with a slight advantage.
  
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MNb
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #114 - 08/08/07 at 21:33:22
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Udav is right, stating that White's play is slow. But so is Black's.
I rejected (after 11.Nb1 Qe6 12.a3 Ba5 13.b4 Bb6)

a) 14.Qc2 because of 0-0 15.c5 dxc5 16.bxc5 Ba5 17.Nc3 Qg6 and White has nothing.

so instead
b) 14.Qb3 Ng6 15.Bg3 h5 16.h4

But I have to admit having overlooked
b1) 16.h4 Ne7 though 17.e4 is not very clear: Qxe4 (g5!?) 18.Bf3 Qd4 (Qg6) 19.Qc3 0-0 (I don't trust 0-0-0 once again) 20.Rad1 Qf6 21.Bxb7 Rab8 22.Bf3 Qg6 (but see Black's 18th move).
b2) So it must be 16.h3, when Ne7 can be met with 17.Nc3, eg g5 (Nf5 does not make sense now) 18.Nd5 and alas for Black the pawns race h4 19.Bh2 f5 20.a4 favours White.

One final remark. Counting tempi is a tricky business.

1. to waste time to drive the Bishop away,that he cant take this Knight.
Not true. The moves a3 and b4 go with tempo, as the bishop has to move as well. In fact this very bishop is the main target of White's strategy.

2. White has to cover the c4 pawn
Partly true. While pawn c4 being pinned restricts White's play somewhat, one cannot say, that b3 is an inferior square for the queen compared to d1 - on the contrary!

3.he has to bring his Knight to c3 and then to d5.
True. Then again, Bd7 and Ke8 are not ideally placed either and that will take two move as well. Nd2-b1-c3-d5 is three moves. As the latter is connected with concrete threats, Black should hurry.

Udav, I hope you will waste some more time.  Wink
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #113 - 08/08/07 at 19:17:06
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(I said that 5.Nbd2 was correct instead of 5.Nd2.  I was looking at the board after 4.Nf3, sorry about the confusion on my part.)
  
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Udav18
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #112 - 08/08/07 at 17:26:39
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/08/07 at 14:55:45:
Chessguy wrote on 08/08/07 at 14:24:33:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe Ng4 4. Bf4 Bb4+ 5. Nd2 d6!?

5. Nc3 is also a legal move.

... Maybe this is a variation that would avoid whites slight advantage and catch opponents unaware? 


5.Nc3 is not quite as strong, or as popular, as 5.Nbd2 (please note that either Knight could have gone to d2).  I have not seen any evidence yet that Black is doing anything more than surviving in this line, and it's not even my first choice for White!  So far, this thread has actually convinced me that 4.Bf4 is certainly quite a good move for White to gain a clear advantage. 

This surprises me because I've known two masters, a 2200 and a 2400 player who have played the Budapest as Black over the board.  The 2200 player just brutalized his opponents tactically but lost every Budapest game he played against me.  I never played the Budapest against the 2400 rated player who said that it was fun but not quite good enough against a prepared opponent.  The 2400 rated player said he rather liked the complications that arose from 4.Bf4 and cited the games of the Australian Grandmaster, Ian Rogers.

The discussions I had with the Senior Master (a USCF designation) were all before 1996 when the relative popularity of the Budapest plummetted.  This thread has shown me that 10...Bd7 is probably just a mistake.  Black has to play extremely actively to have any chances at all.

I still wouldnt say that white has in any of the variations after Nd2 a clear advantage.As I showed there are many variations  where black can equalize  and play even for a win(different castlings /attak on QS vs. attak on KS.)
There was only one variation found by Chessguy,which leads to a slight advantage for white.

I want to summarize now what we found in the variations with 6.Nc3 and 6.Nd2 :

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+
a 6.Nc3 Qe7 7.Qd5 f6 8.exf Nxf! 9.Qd3 0-0

A 10.g3! d6 11. Bg2 Ne4 12.0-0 Bxc3! 13.bxc Nc5 14.Qe3! Be6 15. Nd4! Qd7! 16. Nxe6 Nxe6 +=
B 10.e3?! d6 11.Be2 Ne4 12.0-0 Bxc3 13.bxc Bf5 14.Qd5+ Kh8! 15.Rac1 g5! 16. Bg3 h5! 17.Nd4 Bg6 =+

b
6. Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 9...d6 10.0-0 Bd7!?

A 11.a3 Bxd2 12. Qxd2 0-0-0  =
B11.Nb3 0-0-0 =
C11.Nf3 Ng6 12.Bg3 0-0 =
D11.Nb1 Qe6! 12.a3 Ba5 13.b4 Bb6 14.Qc2! 0-0 (+=) or (=)

I think that are the lines which we produced and I think all of them are really fresh!! Cool








  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #111 - 08/08/07 at 14:55:45
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Chessguy wrote on 08/08/07 at 14:24:33:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe Ng4 4. Bf4 Bb4+ 5. Nd2 d6!?

5. Nc3 is also a legal move.

... Maybe this is a variation that would avoid whites slight advantage and catch opponents unaware?  


5.Nc3 is not quite as strong, or as popular, as 5.Nbd2 (please note that either Knight could have gone to d2).  I have not seen any evidence yet that Black is doing anything more than surviving in this line, and it's not even my first choice for White!  So far, this thread has actually convinced me that 4.Bf4 is certainly quite a good move for White to gain a clear advantage. 

This surprises me because I've known two masters, a 2200 and a 2400 player who have played the Budapest as Black over the board.  The 2200 player just brutalized his opponents tactically but lost every Budapest game he played against me.  I never played the Budapest against the 2400 rated player who said that it was fun but not quite good enough against a prepared opponent.  The 2400 rated player said he rather liked the complications that arose from 4.Bf4 and cited the games of the Australian Grandmaster, Ian Rogers.

The discussions I had with the Senior Master (a USCF designation) were all before 1996 when the relative popularity of the Budapest plummetted.  This thread has shown me that 10...Bd7 is probably just a mistake.  Black has to play extremely actively to have any chances at all.
  
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Chessguy
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #110 - 08/08/07 at 14:24:33
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I wish you keep on playing the Budapest Udav18! And maybe you should pull up another variation as a second weapon against 4 Bf4:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe Ng4 4. Bf4 Bb4+ 5. Nd2 d6!?

5. Nc3 is also a legal move.

This would however require a new thread. Maybe this is a variation that would avoid whites slight advantage and catch opponents unaware?
  
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Udav18
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #109 - 08/08/07 at 14:15:36
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Yea,good point!I overlooked this move.So after Nxc4 there is the very strong a4!! move.
Well white has rerally an advantage after 0-0-0 .Maybe 0-0 is better.I will analyze it Wink
Maybe some time black has to play f6 +cenralyze with moves like Rad8 and maybe start again an attak with g5?
I think that white will allways find ways to get a slight advantage in the Bpg,but if black knows the attaking ideas than black might play much faster than white and to defend with white is also not easy,if you are not an comp. Well I am now convinced that the line with 4.Bf4 offers white a slight advantage,if white had read our posts  Smiley
I do not have an Elo,because i dont have time to play international tournaments.But at playchess.com my Elo was  about 2300,but I have not played there for a few months,because I waste too much time analyzing for the Bpg Grin

  
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Chessguy
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #108 - 08/08/07 at 13:38:51
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Udav18 wrote on 08/08/07 at 13:18:56:
Well,MNb wanted to know a way for black to play against the plan with Nd5,after Qc2 Nc3 will not be possible,beacause the c-pawn is than not enough protected. c5 will be answered with dxc and Ba5 and black will get the better pawnstructure.
So Qc2 is maybe not bad at all,but it is in some way not really consistent,because the Night will have to go again back to d2,if white wants to play for a win and doesnt want to let black destroy whites pawnstructure.
I am not sure yet,but I think something like 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4
Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nbd2 Qe7 7. e3 Ncxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9. Be2 d6 10. O-O Bd7 11. Nb1 Qe6 12. a3 Ba5 13. b4 Bb6
14. Qc2  O-O-O!?  15. c5 dxc5 16. bxc5 Ba5 17. Nc3 Qg6! 18. e4 Nc6 sholud give black good attaking chances on the one side and good defensive chances on the other side. But maybe white has some better options instead of 15.c5.Maybe just centralize and fight for space advantage with a move like 15.Qc3!?
then I would say 15...c6 16.Nd2 Bc7 and black had stabilized his central control and also made his king a little bit safer and the next plan will be to attak on the KS.




After 14. Qc2 0-0-0 I would still play Nc3! and dare you take that c pawn. White has a clear advantage in this position. I am sorry. By the way what is your Elo strength? You seem to be trying very hard at your analysis and I think that's good at least!
Anyway maybe it is not the end of the world if we may now conclude that white has a slight advantage after 11. Nb1 Qe6
  
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Chessguy
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #107 - 08/08/07 at 13:33:55
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Udav18 wrote on 08/08/07 at 13:25:51:
Oh I made a mistake ,Not Night but Knight Grin Grin Grin
I just never wrote this word and I pronounce it the same way,so I thought you write it also the same way,but I noticed now that Knight is right. Grin Grin


It is though possible to modify a thread instead of writing a new thread about the misspelling..
  
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Udav18
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #106 - 08/08/07 at 13:25:51
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Oh I made a mistake ,Not Night but Knight Grin Grin Grin
I just never wrote this word and I pronounce it the same way,so I thought you write it also the same way,but I noticed now that Knight is right. Grin Grin
  
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Udav18
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #105 - 08/08/07 at 13:18:56
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Well,MNb wanted to know a way for black to play against the plan with Nd5,after Qc2 Nc3 will not be possible,beacause the c-pawn is than not enough protected. c5 will be answered with dxc and Ba5 and black will get the better pawnstructure.
So Qc2 is maybe not bad at all,but it is in some way not really consistent,because the Night will have to go again back to d2,if white wants to play for a win and doesnt want to let black destroy whites pawnstructure.
I am not sure yet,but I think something like 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4
Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nbd2 Qe7 7. e3 Ncxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9. Be2 d6 10. O-O Bd7 11. Nb1Qe6 12. a3 Ba5 13. b4 Bb6
14. Qc2  O-O-O!?  15. c5 dxc5 16. bxc5 Ba5 17. Nc3 Qg6! 18. e4 Nc6 sholud give black good attaking chances on the one side and good defensive chances on the other side. But maybe white has some better options instead of 15.c5.Maybe just centralize and fight for space advantage with a move like 15.Qc3!?
then I would say 15...c6 16.Nd2 Bc7 and black had stabilized his central control and also made his king a little bit safer and the next plan will be to attak on the KS.


  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #104 - 08/08/07 at 12:23:33
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I think 14. Qc2 is a better move than 14. Qb3. One point is that the c-pawn no longer is pinned due to Qe6xb3. This introduces c5 as a possibility in some variations. I challenge you Udav18 to find equality here. I am pretty certain that this gives white a slight advantage starting with 11. Nb1 Qe6 12. a3 Ba5 13. b4 Bb6 14. Qc2!
  
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