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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Budapest Ideas (Read 66117 times)
Uberdecker
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #13 - 09/26/06 at 13:43:06
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Sorry, got that all wrong, which is a bit embarrassing considering I play the line with both colours!
The correct sequence is 4. Bf4 Ktc6 ; 5. Ktf3 Bb4+ ; 6. Ktd2 Qe7 ; 7. a3 Ktcxe5 (or 7. ...Ktgxe5, no difference) 8. Ktxe5 Ktxe5 ; 9. e3
  
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Willempie
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #12 - 09/26/06 at 10:37:11
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1159148601/0#11 date=1159211742] White has several lines against the Budapest which prevent Black from completely equalising, and the Kth3 variations favoured by Markovich may be among these, but Black always has good counterplay at his disposal.
The line that limits Black's activity the most, while at the same time maintaining a slight positional edge is 4. Bf4 Ktc6 ; 5. Ktf3 Bb4+ ; 6. Ktd2 Ktcxe5 ; 7. a3.
For one thing, there's no Q'sRookswing to the King-side here.[/quote]
That's a good line (I presume 7..Ngxe5 not Ncxe5), though personally I feel 7 e3 is even a bit better as you save a tempo (and you are not suddenly mated in blitz ;D) which can be used to get the f1 bishop out.

I still fail to see the benefits of Nh3 though. Sure you can get a knight to d5 and put a pawn on f4, but in the meantime black can clog up the e-file and if need be play c6 at some point.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Uberdecker
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #11 - 09/25/06 at 19:15:42
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White has several lines against the Budapest which prevent Black from completely equalising, and the Kth3 variations favoured by Markovich may be among these, but Black always has good counterplay at his disposal.
The line that limits Black's activity the most, while at the same time maintaining a slight positional edge is 4. Bf4 Ktc6 ; 5. Ktf3 Bb4+ ; 6. Ktd2 Ktcxe5 ; 7. a3.
For one thing, there's no Q'sRookswing to the King-side here.
  
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dsanchez
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #10 - 09/25/06 at 18:26:15
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Thanks for all the feedback.  Hopefully I will get a chance to play it this weekend.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #9 - 09/25/06 at 17:28:50
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Willempie wrote on 09/25/06 at 15:07:14:
What's the deal with e3 and Nh3? After something like  5...Ng6 6. g3 Bb4+ 7.Bd2 a5 (Bxd2) you are left with less than with any of the other lines.


I think the exchange of dark-squared bishops on d2 helps White in this line.  He recaptures with the queen, of course.  I'm not sure what Black's bishop is doing on b4 after  7...a5 8. Nc3.  I haven't seen that idea before.

But in general after 5...Ng6, besides the usual sort of thing with Nd5, White plans kingside expansion with f4.
  

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Willempie
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #8 - 09/25/06 at 15:07:14
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What's the deal with e3 and Nh3? After something like  5...Ng6 6. g3 Bb4+ 7.Bd2 a5 (Bxd2) you are left with less than with any of the other lines.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Markovich
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #7 - 09/25/06 at 14:33:09
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1. d4 Nf6  2. c4 e5  3. dxe5 Ng4 (3...Ne4?!  4. a3!) 4. e3! Nxe5  5. Nh3! is my view of how White should play against the Budapest (this has nothing to do with protecting f2, by the way).  Probably 4. Bf4 also produces a slight advantage for White, but I think the system with Nh3-f4 is significantly more dynamic.  It results in fewer exchanges and it better emphasizes White's space advantage (that's right -- White enjoys a longterm space advantage because ...f5 is a difficult move for Black to play).  I started playing this some years ago, after a chessfriend of mine told me that he was using it take scalps and pointed me to a discussion of it in Shereshevsky's The Soviet Chess Conveyor (a really excellent book).  Against unsophisticated opposition, White often gets to ram his f-pawn all the way down to f6, after which further play is a mere formality. 

But even against 5...Ng6, White plays 6. g3, Bg2 0-0 and eventually f4-f5 while Black struggles to find counterplay.  There is no harm in the knight sitting on h3 for awhile. 

I don't claim that 4. e3, 5. Nh3 wins, but it is good.
  

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Meat
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #6 - 09/25/06 at 14:29:34
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I've always played the line
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nc3 Qe7 7. Qd5 Bxc3+ 8. bxc3 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qd3
as White and been rather succesful with it. Some people here say Black has full compensation but I hardly believe that. PLay can continue:
10...d6 11. g3 0-0 12. Bg2 Bg4 13. Rab1 (given by Hans Berliner) Rab8 14. Rb2

I feel rather comfortable in such a variation, as in all my games the question was only whether I can win or only draw. White has an extra pawn (OK, a pretty weird on on the c file, but still...) and his pieces are well placed.  I think he has a good and safe advantage in this line.
  
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lnn2
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #5 - 09/25/06 at 09:30:17
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well i think 4. Bf4 g5 is not so easy to refute, and so far there have been too few games. A NIC survey recently on it was inconclusive.

Anyway, also must add that the pseudo-gambit 4. Bf4 Bb4+ 5. Nd2 d6 6. ed6 Qf6 7. e3 Nxf2 was covered by Oleynikov on 2nd edition of his chessbase cd and he thinks Black is ok in an unclear position, but I disagree...
  
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Willempie
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #4 - 09/25/06 at 09:11:14
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lnn2 wrote on 09/25/06 at 08:58:53:
4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nc3 Qe7 7. Qd5 f6 8. ef6 Bxc3 bxc3 Nf6 10. Qd3 is the subject of the article in latest NIC yearbook 80. I also dont like this line for White (6. Nbd2 is a simpler route to the advantage), but the White side has players like Bareev, Krasenkov, Korchnoi amongst others who keep winning.

It is a good line, but you really need to know what to do as white as the plan for black is straightforward while for white it is tough. The guys you mention have only played the line once or twice btw, while the only GMs I know of who play it with black are Rogers and Miezis. They indeed seem to use the Budapest as a drawing weapon and only lose to very strong opposition.
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Black can try 4. Bf4 g5!? however, where I think Black's position isn't so much worse than say the respectable 6. Be3 Ng4 7. Bg5 h6 8. Bh4 g5 Najdorf!

Shocked
That line is on the constant brink of complete refutation once a serious analyst looks at it.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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lnn2
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #3 - 09/25/06 at 08:58:53
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4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nc3 Qe7 7. Qd5 f6 8. ef6 Bxc3 bxc3 Nf6 10. Qd3 is the subject of the article in latest NIC yearbook 80. I also dont like this line for White (6. Nbd2 is a simpler route to the advantage), but the White side has players like Bareev, Krasenkov, Korchnoi amongst others who keep winning.

I think I once encountered 4. Bf4 Bb4+ 5. Nd2 d6 6. ed6 Qf6 7. e3 Nxf2?!! on internet blitz. This is not covered in John Cox's 1. d4 repertoire book, but is surely dangerous enough for White to be alert! (iirc Dunnington's 1. d4 work didn't deal with this satisfactorily too, recommending instead the odd 7. Nh3?! which he gives a '!'). Black can also try 4. Bf4 g5!?, where I think Black's position isn't so much worse than say the respectable 6. Be3 Ng4 7. Bg5 h6 8. Bh4 g5 Najdorf!
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #2 - 09/25/06 at 08:14:52
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I agree with Willempie in that the Budapest Defence should not be be viewed as a gambit, as the only line in which White hangs on to the pawn 1. d4 Ktf6 ; 2. c4 e5 ; 3. de Ktg5 ; 4. Bf4 Ktc6 ; 5. Ktf3 Bb4+ ; 6. Ktc3 Qe7 ; 7. Qd5 f6 ; 8.ef gives Black full compensation and -c3 is likely to fall to ...Qa3 anyway.
So the positional justification that one expects (but by no means always gets) from such real gambits as the Morra (d-file pressure) or Benko (Queenside pressure) is not needed here.
The simple fact that Black tries to prove that the c-pawn stands out of place is enough to make this a very interesting opening.
 Black's strategic goals are not clearly outlined but that does not mean he is relying on "cheap tricks". The Kingside attack he often gets is a strategic trump, which will not necessarily rely on heavy calculation. He is ready to play a complex middlegame based on active piece play and creative thinking.
 So in answer to DSanchez' worries, I can assure him that I am predominantly a positional player, and yet I very much enjoy the Budapest with either colour. It's not my main defence to 1.d4, because White has certain lines that lead to a clear edge-which doesn't meen there's no lee-way to outplay your opponent-, but as a reserve weapon, it can serve you very well.
You've already pointed out all the themes yourself, now there's nothing left to do but to play it!
  
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Willempie
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #1 - 09/25/06 at 07:29:21
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I have played it a lot, but I quit playing it. Best way to view the Budapest is to view it in a similar way as the black side of a scotch or other e4-e5 openings in which the exchange e5xd4 takes place. An excellent book is an oldie (I guess from the 80s) by Otto Borik. Basically the Budapest isnt really a gambit anymore and is more used as an equalising or drawing weapon. I have quite some draws against better players, but also quite some against much weaker ones.

A couple of themes which are true for the main lines:
-"Attack" the center with pieces not pawns.
-Black plays on the dark squares (moves as a5, d6 are common).
-Black plays a hemmung strategy: everything is based on stopping the e5 advance and an eye is kept on the c5 break.
-The "white white bishop" is a bad piece when compared with the scotch. Due to the pawn on c4 this bishop can only do something active an the a8-h1 diagonal, but there more often than not it is being dominated by the e5-knight. Plus of course there is the risk that black will exchange that bishop and head for opposite coloured bishops.
-In the main lines play is very simple for black: knights to c6 and e5, short castling, Qe7, Re8 and some combination of a5 (for the rook lift if white is too passive), d6 and sometimes b6. Leaves only the bishop on c8 to be placed.
-The black black bishop is usually best on b4 if it pins the knight and best on c5 if it forces e3 which blocks in the c1-bishop (and then a5 will come in handy as white needs to fianchetto that one).
-In the Alekhine variation play is rather more dynamic, but the same themes apply, focus on the dark squares (esp that gaping hole on d4) and attack the center with pieces.

The suggested lines (I think they are best according to theory) to play as black are:
-Bf4 variation, just the main lines, no joking around with g5 as that is bad. With the main line the Bb4+ Nc3 line is excellent for black (if you get that one on board you can start thinking of winning) as the doubled c-pawns are a real strategic headache for white. The other line with Nbd2 is I think the best for white, but are very hard to win if black keeps tabs on the c5 push as you dont want to open the position against the bishop pair.
-Nf3 variation, basically both Nc6 and Bc5 are good for equality (or rather between equality and +/=)
-The Alekhine, retreat to c6 with the knight. Check an ancient game Keres-Gilg in which black get decent play but screws up with f6 iso g6 (breaking the rule of not attacking with pieces). This line gives white the most chances to win, but also gives black more chances.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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dsanchez
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Budapest Ideas
09/25/06 at 01:43:21
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I have recently started looking to add the Budapest Gambit to my repertoire.  I have found that one of the best ways to learn an opening is to find one or more masters who play the opening on ICC, and then play through a lot of their games.  I have played through mabye 50-60 games over the last several days, and the problem I am having with the Budapest is that while several tactical themes stand out, there seem to be very few positive, strategic ideas for Black.   

Compare to, for example, the Black side of the Benko Gambit:  Black's play is usually on the Qside.  He plays for pressure on the a- and b-files.  He usually must prevent the liberating f4 and e5 maneuvers by white.  If Black can neutralize White's Nc3 by either exchanging it or driving it off with ...b4, he often stands better. If Black can regain his gambit pawn, then the endgame with the Benko pawn structure should favor Black.  Black has concrete objectives he can aim for.

Also compare to the White side of the Smith-Morra Gambit.  White sacs a pawn for a lead in development.  In the main lines he gets pressure against Black's d-pawn, or perhaps a strong square at d5 for his pieces. White has concrete objectives he can aim for.

You can almost guide your entire game base on long-term strategic goals like these.

In contrast, I cannot determine any long-term, strategic objectives for Black in the Budapest.  I can't see any positional advantage, and I can't see any devlepment advantage (Black can harldly hope for such).  Besides the cheap tactic against White's f2 square, what is there?  I find the lack of concrete ideas very strange because so many legendary players have played the Budapest at one time or another.  Even in their games, I cannot find any consistent plan.  I understand the concept of "active piece play," but I think there are other Black openings that achieve this with less risk.  Maybe I am overlooking something.  If anyone could describe to me some thematic, long-term goals for Black, I would appreciate it.

By the way, here are some of the thematic ideas I have uncovered so far.  As mentioned above, they are more tactical then strategic.  Comments welcome.

- Black should always regain the pawn on e5 with ...Ngxe5 -- unless he should regain it with ...Ncxe5. Wink

- One White idea is to develop the KN via Nh3, which adds support to the f2 square, and later improve its position with Nf4.  Black usually meets this idea with ...Ng6 to keep White's KN out of play on h3. For example:  1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.de Ng4 4.e3 Nxe5 5.Nh3 Ng6

- One question Black must always face is What is the best square for his KB, c5 or b4? ...Bc5 puts pressure on the f2 square, but it can be exposed to tactics here, especially White's Qh5. For example:  1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.de Ng4 4.e4 Nxe5 5.f4 Ng6 6.Nc3 Bc5 7.h4 Nxh4 8.Qh5 Bxg1 9.Ng6

or

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.de Ng4 4.Nf3 Bc5 5.e3 Nc6 6.Nc3 Ngxe5 7.Nxe5 Nxe5 8.f4 Nc6 9.Bd3 0-0 10.Bxh7+ Kxh7 11.Qh5+

- An early f4 move by White may create tactical possibilites for Black based on ...Qh4+

- If White plays a3, then ...a5 is almost automatic.

- I have seen Black try to ram his a-pawn down White's throat, as in:  1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.de Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.e3 Nge5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 a5 10.0-0 0-0 11.Nb1 a4, and eventually ...a3.

- A common idea for Black is ...a5, ...b6, and ...Bb7. This keeps some of White's Qside ambitions at bay, and by fianchettoing his QB instead of moving his d-pawn, it keeps d6 available for Black's KB in case it gets pushed aroundd. The B looks kind of strange on d6 with Black's d-pawn is still on its home square, but can be effective.

Another by-product of Black's ...a5 move is that the development of the QR via ...Ra6-Rh6 is possible.


  
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