Udav18 wrote on 08/10/07 at 09:56:41:
Scholar wrote on 08/10/07 at 03:30:59:
I'm a little late rejoining this thread, but as an occasional Budapest practitioner, I'll add some thoughts.
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3
All of the discussion here follows 6...Qe7. Why not 6...Bxc3? Perhaps this is a matter of taste, but considering that Udav18 gave lines which focused on doubling that pawn with a later Bxc3, one wonders why Black doesn't do it at the most convenient time.
The lines seem to transpose, but I see no reason to prefer Udav's move order, especially since Black gets some other options which may prove to be stronger.
In the 6.Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 lines the idea of d6/Bd7/0-0-0 seems somewhat misguided as for Black --can castling queenside ever be good? -- but I'll have to take a closer look before commenting more. 9...0-0 seems entirely satisfactory to me from Black's point of view.
Edit: Another possibility is 11...Ne5 in
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nc3 Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 Qe7 8. Qd5 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qd3 d6 11. g3 Ne5
I am not sure that this is an improvement, but it should be part of the discussion.
6...Bxc3 leads to the "old" variation ,which is known as better for white.The new idea was not to take the N on c3 and to use later this Night for a pin and so to get better chances.
Black has sadly no
" other options which may prove to be stronger."
OK. Here's my question for you -- the two lines have the possibility to transpose, since as you recognized yourself, taking on c3 with the knight is too slow. So one has the possibility of two move orders, the old, direct way, and a new less forcing method. In the absence of a specific line discrediting the 6...Bxc3 lines, I will repeat my claim that it makes more sense. As far as being stronger, you will note that I provided one idea, albeit without much analysis. The point is that 6...Bxc3 is more flexible, if doubling the pawns on c3 is your aim.
Quote: The idea 0-0-0 is a matter of taste,0-0 is also ok,but in my view 0-0-0 gives black more chances to win,(but also to lose)
After 9...0-0 both sides have very little chances to win.
I agree with Dink here, this is coffeehouse chess. Castling queenside is positional suicide.
Quote:11...Ne5 was in fact the idea of not to take on c3 too early.
I want to post again the summary of the variations we found out to give you the possibility to join this discussion,with the knowledge and the standing we have now.
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+
a 6.Nc3 Qe7 7.Qd5 f6 8.exf Nxf! 9.Qd3 0-0
A 10.g3! d6 11. Bg2 Ne4 12.0-0 Bxc3! 13.bxc Nc5 14.Qe3! Be6 15. Nd4! Qd7! 16. Nxe6 Nxe6 +=
B 10.e3?! d6 11.Be2 Ne4 12.0-0 Bxc3 13.bxc Bf5 14.Qd5+ Kh8! 15.Rac1 g5! 16. Bg3 h5! 17.Nd4 Bg6 =+
b 6. Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 9...d6 10.0-0 Bd7!?
A 11.a3 Bxd2 12. Qxd2 0-0-0 =
B11.Nb3 0-0-0 =
C11.Nf3 Ng6 12.Bg3 0-0 =
D11.Nb1 Qe6! 12.a3 Ba5 13.b4 Bb6 14.Qc2! 0-0 (+=) or (=)
No need to repeat yourself, chessfriend; I read the thread before I replied. I see that you did not give me the same courtesy. To summarize:
lines I.A and I.B transpose at move 13 to the lines with 6...Bxc3, so please make more explicit why you are opposed to that move
6. Nc3 Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 Qe7 8. Qd5 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qd3 d6 11. g3 Ne5 is one possibility to improve on transposing (which is why one should consider the more flexible move order)
line II -- the moves d6/Bd7 are not so terrible, but the idea of 0-0-0 against everything is -- Dink is spot on here, 11.a3 Bxd2 12.Qxd2 0-0-0 13.Qc3 and White is much better, with c5 the most important and immediate threat. In the long-term, White's pawns also get their first. Now, 11.a3 Bxd2 12.Qxd2 Ng6 13.Bg3?! h5 might lead to lines where Black can consider castling queenside, but this is another story; I still prefer the lines I discussed earlier in the thread.
@SF -- Thanks!