Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Budapest Ideas (Read 65627 times)
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #28 - 09/30/06 at 13:48:10
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/28/06 at 00:11:53:
Scholar stated:

Quote:
Yes, there is no doubt that Tseitlin and Glaskov are often quite optimistic about Black's chances.  This is an interesting line that you mention, although after 6...Ngxe5 7.Nxe5 Nxe5 8.Bc3 Qe7 Black has his usual solid position.

Moreover, how does this stop Black from playing a5 and Ra6?  Black can just play 6...0-0 with the idea of Re8, N[c,g]xe5, a5, and Ra6.  Not that this is necessarily great, but it doesn't look impossible.



In the line I suggested, ...a5 and ...Ra6 aren't impossible.  In fact, it has been played a few times.  However, it lacks any real bite compared to the "normal" lines in which the Rook maneuver plays such an important role in Black's counter-attack.  I haven't faced it very often, but have scored 100% in serious games (ok, that may be two wins out of two games, but at least one was against a "Life Master" who has posted on Chess Publishing quite a bit).

Keep in mind that Ra6 isnt a goal in itself it is just a bonus of a5. That move is to stop the c5 break by holding up b4 (similar to the KID).
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #27 - 09/28/06 at 01:06:51
Post Tools
@Uberdecker: I'm not sure Black has to take on d2 (I wouldn't).  I meant saving a tempo in the traditional sense: Black's bishop will have to move again no matter what White does, and lacks good squares, so why give him a tempo with which to trade it.  Of course, some prefer to spend a tempo to get the bishops; fine by me.

The 6...f6 gambit is rather speculative and tactical (so I know you don't like it) and has almost nothing in common with the 7...f6 gambit other than the fact that in both cases Black plays f6.  Like I said, I play it if I need to win.

@Smyslov_Fan: Fair enough.  I usually don't go in for Ra6-kingside, so I'm not a good judge of when Black has much to go with.  I just noticed a few games of relatively high class where Black had success with a5-Ra6-h6 even in this line.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #26 - 09/28/06 at 00:11:53
Post Tools
Scholar stated:

Quote:
Yes, there is no doubt that Tseitlin and Glaskov are often quite optimistic about Black's chances.  This is an interesting line that you mention, although after 6...Ngxe5 7.Nxe5 Nxe5 8.Bc3 Qe7 Black has his usual solid position.

Moreover, how does this stop Black from playing a5 and Ra6?  Black can just play 6...0-0 with the idea of Re8, N[c,g]xe5, a5, and Ra6.  Not that this is necessarily great, but it doesn't look impossible.



In the line I suggested, ...a5 and ...Ra6 aren't impossible.  In fact, it has been played a few times.  However, it lacks any real bite compared to the "normal" lines in which the Rook maneuver plays such an important role in Black's counter-attack.  I haven't faced it very often, but have scored 100% in serious games (ok, that may be two wins out of two games, but at least one was against a "Life Master" who has posted on Chess Publishing quite a bit).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 624
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #25 - 09/27/06 at 16:25:25
Post Tools
Why?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #24 - 09/27/06 at 16:12:19
Post Tools
[quote author=Uberdeker link=1159148601/15#23 date=1159343352] A modest, but clear edge, yes. I believe that is the best one can expect against the Budapest. Why a quick draw? More like a 120-move draw...
How does 7. e3 save a tempo? It's true that after 7. ...Ktcxe5, White is no longer compelled to exchange on -e5 and can play 8. Be2 instead (the advantages of which are far from clear to me), but Black can then preserve his dark-squared Bishop. He can even do this straight away with 7. ...a5.
I'm rather suspicious of the gambit 6. ...f6. Doesn't compare well with the line
6. Ktc3 Qe7 ; 7. Qd5 f6. Very speculative, if you ask me.[/quote]
The e3 move saves a tempo as black needs to exchange the bishop anyway.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 624
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #23 - 09/27/06 at 07:49:12
Post Tools
A modest, but clear edge, yes. I believe that is the best one can expect against the Budapest. Why a quick draw? More like a 120-move draw...
How does 7. e3 save a tempo? It's true that after 7. ...Ktcxe5, White is no longer compelled to exchange on -e5 and can play 8. Be2 instead (the advantages of which are far from clear to me), but Black can then preserve his dark-squared Bishop. He can even do this straight away with 7. ...a5.
I'm rather suspicious of the gambit 6. ...f6. Doesn't compare well with the line
6. Ktc3 Qe7 ; 7. Qd5 f6. Very speculative, if you ask me.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #22 - 09/27/06 at 04:25:24
Post Tools
Uberdecker wrote on 09/25/06 at 08:14:52:
t's not my main defence to 1.d4, because White has certain lines that lead to a clear edge-which doesn't meen there's no lee-way to outplay your opponent-, but as a reserve weapon, it can serve you very well.


Uberdecker wrote on 09/26/06 at 13:43:06:
Sorry, got that all wrong, which is a bit embarrassing considering I play the line with both colours!
The correct sequence is 4. Bf4 Ktc6 ; 5. Ktf3 Bb4+ ; 6. Ktd2 Qe7 ; 7. a3 Ktcxe5 (or 7. ...Ktgxe5, no difference) 8. Ktxe5 Ktxe5 ; 9. e3


I'm curious if this is the line which you think leads to a clear edge for White (it seems like a quick draw is more likely).  I always thought that 7.e3 was more dangerous, effectively saving a tempo for White.  Against this general plan, I found that Black's position, though reliable, was hard to win with -- I prefer 6...f6 to 6...Qe7 if I need the full point.  (Yes, Rubinstein-Tartakower is a nice win for White, but Black can improve...)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #21 - 09/27/06 at 04:15:07
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/27/06 at 03:32:03:
The main problem with the Budapest is that White has so very many paths to gaining an edge.  Tseitlin's book on the Budapest was overly optimistic, and it doesn't cover one of my favorite lines:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.de5 Ng4 4.Nf3 Bc5 5.e3 Nc6 6.Bd2!? with the idea of a quick Bc3 as IM Berkovich played way back in 1992 and Ftacnik played as early as 1986, or Taimanov in 1967!

I've found that this move thwarts most of the standard attacks associated with ...a5 and ...Ra6.  Both sides play chess instead of test each other's memories, and the resulting positions are both interesting and fairly good for White.


Yes, there is no doubt that Tseitlin and Glaskov are often quite optimistic about Black's chances.  This is an interesting line that you mention, although after 6...Ngxe5 7.Nxe5 Nxe5 8.Bc3 Qe7 Black has his usual solid position.

Moreover, how does this stop Black from playing a5 and Ra6?  Black can just play 6...0-0 with the idea of Re8, N[c,g]xe5, a5, and Ra6.  Not that this is necessarily great, but it doesn't look impossible.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #20 - 09/27/06 at 03:32:03
Post Tools
The main problem with the Budapest is that White has so very many paths to gaining an edge.  Tseitlin's book on the Budapest was overly optimistic, and it doesn't cover one of my favorite lines:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.de5 Ng4 4.Nf3 Bc5 5.e3 Nc6 6.Bd2!? with the idea of a quick Bc3 as IM Berkovich played way back in 1992 and Ftacnik played as early as 1986, or Taimanov in 1967!

I've found that this move thwarts most of the standard attacks associated with ...a5 and ...Ra6.  Both sides play chess instead of test each other's memories, and the resulting positions are both interesting and fairly good for White.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dsanchez
Full Member
***
Offline


24.Nh1!?N

Posts: 182
Joined: 01/24/06
Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #19 - 09/26/06 at 21:50:21
Post Tools
[Event "?"]
[Site "Mexico"]
[Date "1979.??.??"]
[White "Nikolic,Predrag"]
[Black "Barbero,Gerardo"]
[Round "?"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A52"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. e3
Bc5 6. Nc3 Ncxe5 7. h3 Nxf3+ 8. Qxf3 Ne5 9. Qg3
Ng6 10. Bd2 Bd6 11. f4 Be7 12. O-O-O Bf6 13. Qf3
d6 14. Nd5 O-O 15. Bd3 Bd7 16. h4 Re8 17. h5
Nf8 18. g4 Bc6 19. g5 Be7 20. Bc3 Bxd5 21. Qxd5
c6 22. Qd4 Ne6 23. Bxh7+ Kxh7 24. Qe4+ Kg8 25. h6
Nxg5 26. hxg7 1-0

I have Borik's book which was mentioned earlier in the thread (found it a used book store for US $2.98!), and this is where I happened across this game.  Borik comments that 7.h3 forces Black into a capture that allows White's queen to announce her presence with authority, and he offers a tip: avoid capturing on f3 altogether, or only do so when White cannot recapture with the Queen.

I have not sussed out any games where ...Ncxe5 loses on the spot, but some quick database checks seem to indicate that ...Ngxe5 is overwhelmingly preffered.  (In fact, I can't find many games at all with ...Ncxe5.)  I suppose therein lies some of the psychological appeal.  Unless you are playing someone of Nikolic's stature, ...Ncxe5 may well be fine, and it may throw some White players off.  However, if you believe in the accumulation of small advantages -- it appears most feel that this particular small advantage is in White's favor.

I may try it out in some blitz games and see just to see how White reacts.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 624
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #18 - 09/26/06 at 16:09:49
Post Tools
Care to share that game, or other examples of ...Ktcxe5 being inferior to ...Ktgxe5 ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #17 - 09/26/06 at 15:59:41
Post Tools
[quote author=dsanchez link=1159148601/15#16 date=1159286162][quote author=Uberdeker link=1159148601/15#15 date=1159281596]
I prefer taking with the -c Knight in other variations as well, mainly for psychological reasons. It can tempt white into losing time with h3.[/quote]

That is interesting.  I suppose every advantage helps.  I don't have my books with me, but I seem to remember seeing a reference to Nikolic - Barbaro 1979 (?) as a cautionary tale about not taking with the Nc6 unless it is specifically indicated.

Of course, I'm new to all this, and that may be a special case.  Although it seems that 9 times out of 10 people recaputure ...Ngxe5.  Maybe they are not aware of your psychological finesse.

[/quote]
Yep that game is an excellent warning. Afaik taking with the wrong knight will never have any other benefits then psychology, so unless you are going to major in that field, I'd stick with the g4-knight capture ;)
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dsanchez
Full Member
***
Offline


24.Nh1!?N

Posts: 182
Joined: 01/24/06
Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #16 - 09/26/06 at 15:56:02
Post Tools
[quote author=Uberdeker link=1159148601/15#15 date=1159281596]
I prefer taking with the -c Knight in other variations as well, mainly for psychological reasons. It can tempt white into losing time with h3.[/quote]

That is interesting.  I suppose every advantage helps.  I don't have my books with me, but I seem to remember seeing a reference to Nikolic - Barbaro 1979 (?) as a cautionary tale about not taking with the Nc6 unless it is specifically indicated.

Of course, I'm new to all this, and that may be a special case.  Although it seems that 9 times out of 10 people recaputure ...Ngxe5.  Maybe they are not aware of your psychological finesse.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 624
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #15 - 09/26/06 at 14:39:56
Post Tools
Well, if White wants to avoid the doubling of his -f and -g pawns or loss of castling following 8. e3?! Ktxf3 ; 9. Qxf3 Bxd2+, he has to exchange on -e5 regardless of which Knight took the pawn.
I prefer taking with the -c Knight in other variations as well, mainly for psychological reasons. It can tempt white into losing time with h3.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #14 - 09/26/06 at 14:26:46
Post Tools
[quote author=Uberdeker link=1159148601/0#13 date=1159278186]Sorry, got that all wrong, which is a bit embarrassing considering I play the line with both colours!
The correct sequence is 4. Bf4 Ktc6 ; 5. Ktf3 Bb4+ ; 6. Ktd2 Qe7 ; 7. a3 Ktcxe5 (or 7. ...Ktgxe5, no difference) 8. e3 [/quote]
Yes I always have a problem with the move orders in typing from memory as well ;D
Iirc there is a difference though if white doesnt exchange knights on e5, forcing a knight exchange on f3.
Plus the golden rule in the Budapest is to capture with the g4-knight on e5 even if the other capture is good ;)
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo