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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Budapest Ideas (Read 66300 times)
Udav18
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #43 - 07/31/07 at 08:58:22
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So I am really proud of the fresh very new lines,which show that the Bdpg is a solid opening.Now I want to have a look at the line with Nd2 instead of Nc3 after Bb4+.
This line has the repetiton that white gets a slight and solid advantage.
What I know now are just a few games with this line,which show some ideas for black.
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+  6. Nd2 Qe7 7. a3 (there are moves like 7.e3 ,too)
Nxe5(It doesnt really matter what night will capture on e5) 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9. e3 Bxd2 10. Qxd2 d6 11. Be2
and now there are two different and interessting plans.
-attaking on the Kingside without castling
-castle +b6+Bb7 and try to find some ways to compensate the strong plan by white to push the c-pawn and create weaknesses

Before I will show the games with this ideas,I want to know,wether there are also some other ideas for black.
  
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Udav18
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #42 - 07/11/07 at 17:13:42
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Hi,here some fair news for all Budapest players.
I just couldnt accept,that white has an advantage in the line Bf4 Bb4+ and  Nc3+Qd5
I surched and surched and couldnt give up and actually I fount some truths,which may cheer you!
Ok so here a few of the lines,where I thought that white is much better.
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3 Qe7 7.Qd5 f6 8.exf Nxf 9. Qd3 0-0 10. g3 Ne4(!) 11. Bg2 d6 12. 0-0
So here I didnt want to give up the pair of bishops and only surched for Nxc3 bxc and Bf5.When I found the move e4!! it was a shock to me.White has here a strong pressure ,because after Bxe,there are to many lines open ,which only white can use.
But I found that after 12...Bxc3 (!) 13.bxc  Nc5 14.Qd2 Na5! 15.Qd4 Be6 16. Nd2! Rae8 Black stands ok!!He has now the plan to attak the c-pawn with Qf7 and it is really hard for white to keep his slite advantage!!
The other line with 10. e3 gives black very good attaking chances and black has even the advantage!
10...d6 11.Be2 Ne4 12.0-0 Bxc 13.bxc Bf5 14.Qd5+ Kh8! (this natural move has the intention to start a really strong attak!)
15.Rac1 g5! 16. Bg3 h5! 17.Nd4 Bg6 =+

  
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Udav18
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #41 - 07/07/07 at 17:07:33
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I am really sorry,I tried to improve a line,without taking on c3 and I was close to fine a variation ,where black can equalize,but after
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3 Qe7 7.Qd5 f6 8.exf Nxf 9. Qd3 0-0 10. g3 Ne4 11. Bg2 d6 12. 0-0 Nxc3 13. bxc Bf5 there is the very strong move e4!!,which was found after a few minutes by Rybka.
The idea is to give up a pawn,but than black will have to many problems,because now not only the king is weakend but also the diagonal h1-a8 and the e-file is open.White is well developed and in such an open position black has no chance to equalize Cry
I have never played g5!? after Bf4.Is here anybody who play it?
Maybe g5 is at least ok for black.
  
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Udav18
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #40 - 07/07/07 at 09:52:17
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Well,maybe i was a little bit to overhasty  to say that black has to take on c3 in the line with Bf4 and than whit has an advantage.
I had a look at a few variations without Bxc3,where Rybka2.3.2 showes that white has an advantage and it seems that Rybka makes allways a few mistakes in the calculation and when I played this variations  Rybka could found a few improvements for black.I will look today at the variation. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3 Qe7 7.Qd5 f6 8.exf Nxf 9. Qd3 0-0 10. g3 Ne4(!) 11. Bg2 d6 12. 0-0 Nxc3(!) 13. bxc Bf5! 

It seems that black can equalize now.
But I will need a closer look at this position not to be mistaken.
If anybody has time to analyze this position,please do it!That might reanimate the BpG !
  
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Udav18
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #39 - 07/07/07 at 08:59:22
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OK now lets continue our discussion of the BpG here.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #38 - 07/06/07 at 23:52:51
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I just thought I'd revive this thread since there's currently a discussion on these ideas going on in another part of the forum.

Cheers!

  
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Scholar
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #37 - 10/15/06 at 03:15:12
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Check out the game below for one approach.  Of course, White made mistakes, but the plan by Black seems quite reasonable.  Unless White can play b4 (and certainly 14.b4 is on the table -- it may even be the best move) his queenside play is basically shut down once he forgoes c5.

Just look over some games, both in this particular position and others (there aren't too many Budapest games played at a high level) to get a feel for the middlegame maneuvering.  Most reasonable-looking moves lead to reasonable positions here, so a lot of the play depends on personal preference.  It is perfectly possible for forego kingside play as well; Bb6/d6 fit together well, as do b6/Bb7...

Mikhalevski,V (2525) - Chabanon,J (2445) [A52]
Bad Endbach Bad Endbach, 1995

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 0-0 10.0-0 a5 11.Nb3 a4 12.a3 Bd6 13.Nd4 Bc5 14.Nb5 d6 15.Nc3 Ng6 16.Bg3 f5 17.Bf3 Qe8 18.Qc2 Ne5 19.Be2 Be6 20.Nb5 Qf7 21.Bxe5 dxe5 22.Qc3 Rae8 23.Qxe5 Bxc4 24.Qxc5 Bxe2 25.Rfe1 b6 26.Qc6 Re6 27.Qd5 c6 28.Nd6 Qg6 29.Qxf5 Rxf5 30.Nxf5 Qxf5 31.Rxe2 Qd3 32.Rae1 c5 33.e4 b5 34.e5 g5 35.Re3 Qd4 36.R3e2 b4 37.axb4 cxb4 38.h3 b3 39.Kf1 Kg7 40.Kg1 Kg6 41.g4 h5 42.gxh5+ Kxh5 43.Kh2 Kg6 44.Kg2 Kf5 45.Kg3 a3 46.bxa3 b2 47.Rb1 Qd3+ 0-1
  
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Der Stratege
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #36 - 10/14/06 at 23:30:31
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Hello,

a new Try Smiley
after 10...a5 i want to try out 11.Nb3-a4 12.a3-Bd6 13.Nd4-Bc5 14.Nb5-d6 15.Nc3-Bd7 16.Nd5-Qd8 17.Qc2 - so far more or less forced
But how to find a Plan for Black? White can double rooks on D-File to prevent c7-c6. Can u give me any Ideas?

regards
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #35 - 10/14/06 at 06:05:25
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1159148601/30#34 date=1160769725]Dear Scholar,

  Very nice variation you thought up there. Perhaps Black is even slightly better due to his control of the d-file. I must say though that the manoeuvre 16. Qe1/17. Qd1 creates a very odd impression.
Perhaps Black also has earlier deviations, such as delaying 7. ...Ktgxe5 and castling first.

                            Regards,
                               Hubert[/quote]
Thanks.

What is the idea behind delaying Ngxe5 with 7...0-0?  It seems like Black can't avoid transposing to the usual lines after 8.Be2 and 8.a3 gives White an improved version of the delayed a3 lines -- Black usually plays d6 before castling to prevent a quick c5, a resource which is denied him in this move order.

To my eyes, the only deviations from the Black side of this line that seem possible are at move 6 and move 10 (or later).
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #34 - 10/13/06 at 20:02:05
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Dear Scholar,

 Very nice variation you thought up there. Perhaps Black is even slightly better due to his control of the d-file. I must say though that the manoeuvre 16. Qe1/17. Qd1 creates a very odd impression.
Perhaps Black also has earlier deviations, such as delaying 7. ...Ktgxe5 and castling first.

                            Regards,
                               Hubert
  
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Der Stratege
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #33 - 10/12/06 at 11:11:24
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Hello,

thx for that interesting line with 17..d6 !?!? I didnt calculate this move at all. To give back Material is always out of my mind Smiley
I agree, that Black can equalize the Game. White can only hope for an advantage with the bishoppair, but i dont believe Sad

So i have to intensify the Line after 12...Bd6. I will tell u soon.... Smiley

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #32 - 10/12/06 at 05:17:05
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Quote:
Hello,

after 10...a5 follows 11.Nb3-a4 12.a3-Bd6 13. c5(!)-Bxc5 14.Nxc5-Qxc5 15.Rc1-Qa5 16.Qe1-c6 and now 17.Qd1 causes Black Headache with the black Squares. And what to do with the Bc8 ?!

Regards


To be honest I do not know this line very deeply, though I had considered 17.Qxa5 to be the main line (I guess there are a few games with it) with 17...Rax5 18.Rad1 Re8 looking fine for Black without any more analysis.

I suspect that you are right to try and keep the queens on, but it's not so easy for White after 17.Qd1.  If Black is so concerned with the Bc8 he can play simple chess 17...d6 18.Qxd6 (otherwise Black has no problems) Ng6 and now there is some branching, but Black will take on f4 is offered, and otherwise play a quick Be6-b3 followed by Rfd8.  This seems perfectly satisfactory to me for Black, since White can't even control the d-file.

Play might continue 19.Bg3 keeping the bishop pair seems like the best try for an edge Be6 avoids complications 20.Rfd1 Bb3 21.Rd3 Rfd8 and after the resulting simplifications, it's hard to think that Black has any problems with the endgame.

Of course 17...d6 is just one choice, and 17...Re8 may be OK as well, intending f6 and if possible b6/Ba6, otherwise d5.  The point is that Black is up a pawn here, and so he has some flexibility in breaking the bind.
  
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Der Stratege
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #31 - 10/12/06 at 01:29:06
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Hello,

after 10...a5 follows 11.Nb3-a4 12.a3-Bd6 13. c5(!?)-Bxc5 14.Nxc5-Qxc5 15.Rc1-Qa5 16.Qe1-c6 and now 17.Qd1 causes Black Headache with the black Squares. And what to do with the Bc8 ?!

Regards
« Last Edit: 10/12/06 at 11:05:50 by Der Stratege »  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #30 - 10/11/06 at 04:44:10
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Quote:
Hello,

I really dont know what the Problem for White. All Lines are at least +=, take a look:
1.d4-Nf6 2.c4-e5 3.dxe5-Ng4 4.Lf4(!) - Nc6 5.Nf3-Bb4+ 6. Nbd2-Qe7 7. e3(!) - Ngxe5 8. Nxe5-Nxe5
9. Be2-00 10. 00 - Bxd2 11.Qxd2-d6 12. b4 and only White is fine...


Setting aside the possibility of 6...f6 (hardly a safe += for White), as mentioned above Black is under no obligation to play 10...Bxd2 and instead I think 10...a5 is better.  Either 11.a3 is the result (and it's not to see the interposition of a3 and a5 as an improvement for Black) or White plays 11.Nb3 a4 12.a3 Bd6 which seems to give Black good play.
  
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Der Stratege
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #29 - 10/11/06 at 00:38:57
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Hello,

I really dont know what the Problem for White. All Lines are at least +=, take a look:
1.d4-Nf6 2.c4-e5 3.dxe5-Ng4 4.Lf4(!) - Nc6 5.Nf3-Bb4+ 6. Nbd2-Qe7 7. e3(!) - Ngxe5 8. Nxe5-Nxe5
9. Be2-00 10. 00 - Bxd2 11.Qxd2-d6 12. b4 and only White is fine...

On 4....g5(?!) simply follows 5.Bd2 with the Idee Bc3 and g5 becomes just a weakness
On 5...f6 follows 6.exf6 -Qxf6 7. Qd2 ! +=

The Fajarowicz-Line after 3...Ne4 looks interesting at first look, but then it seems to be not satisfactionable.
4.Nf3-Bb4+ 5.Bd2-Nxd2 6.Nxd2-Nc6 7.a3-Bxd2 8.Dxd2-Qe7 9.Qc3 looks fine for white. If Black castles long,
then there is easy continuation for White 9...b6 10.Rd1-Bb7 11.e3-000 12.Be2-Rhe8 13.Rd5-Na5 14.b4(!) +-

If Black castles short white plays on d7. 9...00 10.Rd1-Re8 11.Rd5-b6 12.g3-Bb7 13.Bh3-Tad8 14.00-Na5
15.Rd2-Nc6 16.Rfd1 looks awful for Black.

Any Questions?

Regards
  
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