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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Budapest Ideas (Read 65623 times)
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #163 - 12/17/07 at 10:50:29
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I'm still not aware of a good way for black to combat this line:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nc3 Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 Qe7 8. Qd5 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qd3 d6 11. g3 O-O 12. Bg2 Bg4 13. Rab1

Apart from that, 6. Nbd2 should at least give white a slight plus, too.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #162 - 12/17/07 at 02:41:47
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This is or was a Budapest thread wasn't it, lets try to stay on track as much as possible shall we.

I for one have decided to include the Budapest in my repertoire, since after looking closely at the theory again it seems decent and viable enough for occasional use, even against strong opposition. Furthermore nothing close to a refutation exists to my knowledge, and even the absurd looking 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bf4 g5?! lives.

What I like about the Budapest is that it's main ideas are relatively easy to learn and apply, and White players who underestimate it are often in for a rude awakening as no other a luminary as Beliavsky once found out at the hands of Epishin.

True White has solid lines that try for a nagging edge, but he has those against any defence that black may throw at him.

All in all I consider the Budapest a useful practical weapon to have in one's arsenal against 1.d4.

Tops Smiley
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #161 - 12/16/07 at 22:00:14
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Antillian wrote on 12/16/07 at 11:13:27:
MNb wrote on 12/16/07 at 10:27:11:
Combine it with the Blumenfeld.


Sorry, no Blumenfeld either 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 c5 3. d5 b5 4. Bg5


If Black does not like this: 2...e6 3.c4 c5 4.d5 b5.

Don't tell me "sorry no Blumenfeld either 4.Nf3, 3.Bg5, 3.e3" or whatever. After 1.e4 it is no Blumenfeld either.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #160 - 12/16/07 at 19:34:21
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I would think that in that reversed Alekhine line (with 4...e3), the extra and desirable move c4 should swing things clearly in White's favor.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #159 - 12/16/07 at 19:19:21
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Quote:
White can simply refuse the "gambit" with 3. Nf3

Well this gives black good opportunities:

to play a reversed Scandinavian (3...ed4 4.Nd4)
to play a reversed Alekhine (3...e4 4.Nfd2 e3!?)

I see no opening problems at all  Smiley

If you want to avoid the Budapest why not simply play 1. or 2.Nf3!?
3.Nf3 makes me feel like wanting a glas of wine and ordering a mineral water  Grin
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #158 - 12/16/07 at 18:34:29
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Greetings,

Then clearly my opponents knew even less about what to do as, as far as I recall, I won these games. [I'd have to go looking for the scoresheets, as I've yet to add the older games to my database.]

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #157 - 12/16/07 at 17:45:27
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Dragan Glas wrote on 12/13/07 at 01:25:59:
Greetings,

Judging from the few reviews, it's not a theory-heavy book but one which seems to concentrate on explaining themes and plans using the seminal games of the early 20th century.

http://www.newinchess.com/Shop/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=386
http://www.amazon.com/Fabulous-Budapest-Gambit-Surprise-Weapon/dp/9056912240
http://www.chessvibes.com/?p=1275

If these are correct, then this may well answer the original poster's question!  Wink

[As regards the analysis which has been discussed throughout this thread - I think that everyone's energy was somewhat wasted given that White can simply refuse the "gambit" with 3. Nf3 and have a comfortable game - which is what I've played on the three(!) occasions I've been faced with it. Grin ]

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas


But this is playing for equality with White.

Tops Smiley
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #156 - 12/16/07 at 12:18:56
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Lots of negativity here - did something unspeakable happen to a group of you in that city?

Bg5 of course a well-known and potentially dangerous anti-benko system. Not easy, has to be learnt, but any opening system/ set of systems require proper study.

Agree with MnB - blumenfeld a worthy compadre.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #155 - 12/16/07 at 11:13:27
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MNb wrote on 12/16/07 at 10:27:11:
Combine it with the Blumenfeld.


Sorry, no Blumenfeld either 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 c5 3. d5 b5 4. Bg5
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #154 - 12/16/07 at 10:27:11
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Combine it with the Blumenfeld.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #153 - 12/16/07 at 03:20:06
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I imagine that it fits best with a reduced KID repertoire - no saemisch, 4 pawns etc. Though how many Budapest punters will have sufficiently broad knowledge may be open to question.
Covered previously I believe.
dejavu again, and again...
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #152 - 12/16/07 at 01:31:35
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So what do you Budapest fanatics do against 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 ?
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #151 - 12/13/07 at 01:25:59
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Greetings,

Judging from the few reviews, it's not a theory-heavy book but one which seems to concentrate on explaining themes and plans using the seminal games of the early 20th century.

http://www.newinchess.com/Shop/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=386
http://www.amazon.com/Fabulous-Budapest-Gambit-Surprise-Weapon/dp/9056912240
http://www.chessvibes.com/?p=1275

If these are correct, then this may well answer the original poster's question!  Wink

[As regards the analysis which has been discussed throughout this thread - I think that everyone's energy was somewhat wasted given that White can simply refuse the "gambit" with 3. Nf3 and have a comfortable game - which is what I've played on the three(!) occasions I've been faced with it. Grin ]

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #150 - 11/13/07 at 22:48:59
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DrKibzwang wrote on 11/12/07 at 22:02:00:
Moskalenko's book doesn't try to make the Budapest seem like the Benko -- it is a very flexible opening often with an open center -- but the book has detailed strategic summaries preceding the games in each line.


Flexible is hardly a word I would use to describe the Budapest, so if indeed Moskalenko has found some lines that are trruly flexible for Black I am interested.  But, and it's a big but (as is anyone's that spends too much time on the intrawebs) I fear the book will be more deep lines of analysis that are strong for black, but white would hardly ever venture into when they can in fact reach (almost forcibly so--hardly flexible) nearly winning positions such as is possible in the ...Ne4 variation where white simple plays a3 and can practically push the autopilot button.

As a (relatively) new d4 player after decades of e4ing people, at first I found some justification in black's ideas because I did not know some up-to-date developments (I only relied on the old Borik tome), but unless Moskalenko has some secret, recent, high level games that have never been released on any database, I remain skeptical.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #149 - 11/12/07 at 22:02:00
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I just got Moskalenko's book yesterday and am preparing a review for Georgia Chess (the state magazine, not the republic's!) so this isn't a review, just a brief comment. The question that started this entire thread was that the Budapest seemed to be based on tactical tricks but that there was no clear strategic shape to the opening, unlike, say, the Benko. Moskalenko's book doesn't try to make the Budapest seem like the Benko -- it is a very flexible opening often with an open center -- but the book has detailed strategic summaries preceding the games in each line. Entire games are annotated in detail, relating the middlegame and occasionally endgame to the opening. It looks to be a very thoroughly researched book (Moskalenko plays the Budapest both seriously OTB and online) and it has a nice labor-of-love air about it -- for example the author several times says how much he enjoyed analyzing this or that classic game. He does have an anachronistic habit of addressing his readers as "gentlemen", which you may find endearing or sexist according to taste. Production qualities are what you would expect from NIC, and there are even thumbnail pictures of some of the players.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #148 - 11/05/07 at 00:51:15
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I must admit to having a soft spot for the Budapest Gambit, as I consider it a surprising and useful drawing weapon and sometimes more,  to have in ones repertoire.

I have only quickly scanned this long thread but noticed a lot attention paid to some Nb1 idea and wondered whether the following position was discussed:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nbd2 Qe7 7. e3 Ngxe5 8. Nxe5 Nxe5 9. Be2 O-O 10. O-O Ng6!? I think this idea is woth a go, pre-empting any Nb1 ideas by White. 11. Bg3 [11.Bxc7?? loses a piece to d6] Bd6! The real point behind 10...Ng6 12. Bxd6 Qxd6 with a solid position.

Good news for Budapest fans is the appearance of a new book on this opening entitled The Fabulous Budapest Gambit by V. Moskalenko.

Lets hope this new book is as inspiring as the title suggests.

Toppy Smiley
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #147 - 09/06/07 at 21:01:19
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I know this thread got off-track for a while and that I'm partially responsible for that.  My apologies for that.

Even so, at the time of writing this has ten pages of notes and should help with any current discussion of the Budapest.

Cheers!
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #146 - 08/19/07 at 00:02:40
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Who's attaking whom?
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #145 - 08/18/07 at 13:42:27
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I tried to play the duch opening,because you can play it against 1.d4 and also against 1.c4.
"THEMOVE ,please stop to post things with the intention to attak someone,I am bland that you praised me,but I dont want to see anymore posts with the intention to attak someone."
Grin You fight for the justice  Grin
But you can believe me that I had no intent to attak SF .
I am new here and I wanted to tell my opinion .
Sorry SF Wink
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #144 - 08/18/07 at 09:24:00
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THEMOVE wrote on 08/17/07 at 21:54:47:
Grin Smyslov_Fan seems really to dislike Udav18.
Well I have read all the posts here to know the status quo and to me it seems really that Smyslov_Fan attaks Udav all the time,without any reason.I have to say that Udav18 did really a hard and good job to defend the Buderpester and SF seems not to like the idea that the Bpg could be reanimated. Grin Grin
But at least he was right this opening isnt really a strong weapon against good players.
I played it also for a few years and played it against 3 Im's and 2 GM's Grin(Isnt that stupid? Grin)
Well the score was 1,5-3,5  for them Cry but I am happy that this had happened.So I was forced to quit this opening and to try a solid opening.



Yes,I was not able to inspirit the Bpg .What opening did you try after you stoped to play the Bpg?

Seems that the mood didnt change here since I was away for a few days.
Smyslov_Fan I want to stop our disagreement here and now,because your last post went too far.

THEMOVE ,please stop to post things with the intention to attak someone,I am bland that you praised me,but I dont want to see anymore posts with the intention to attak someone.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #143 - 08/18/07 at 08:51:15
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Grin  A complot?  Grin
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #142 - 08/18/07 at 01:59:38
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I don't mind being attacked for comments I make, but this is strange.

THEMOVE and Udav make the same spelling and grammatical mistakes.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #141 - 08/17/07 at 21:54:47
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Grin Smyslov_Fan seems really to dislike Udav18.
Well I have read all the posts here to know the status quo and to me it seems really that Smyslov_Fan attaks Udav all the time,without any reason.I have to say that Udav18 did really a hard and good job to defend the Buderpester and SF seems not to like the idea that the Bpg could be reanimated. Grin Grin
But at least he was right this opening isnt really a strong weapon against good players.
I played it also for a few years and played it against 3 Im's and 2 GM's Grin(Isnt that stupid? Grin)
Well the score was 1,5-3,5  for them Cry but I am happy that this had happened.So I was forced to quit this opening and to try a solid opening.

  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #140 - 08/14/07 at 21:33:32
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I am sorry Udav, but I have to contradict you. Just reread this post.

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/07/07 at 21:16:07:
I still feel a lot of animas in this thread.  If there's any way to become more objective and not feel like this is personal, this may be a more fruitful discussion.


S_F never tries to anger anybody here on the forum. I am sometimes guilty of this and so are a few others, but not S_F.
Hey, S_F is even trying to help you switching to the Slav. I am sure, he will provide you with a lot of information about this, when you open a new thread. He knows quite a bit about it!
Why don't you just try? With a little luck you get Fluffy (David Vigorito) involved as well.

Keep up the good work. Big chance S_F and you will become good friends.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #139 - 08/14/07 at 15:56:05
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/14/07 at 13:20:17:
I've played 1.c4 c6 as Black for quite some time and have very rarely faced 1...e4.  From a practical perspective, if you just review some of the ideas behind the Panov-Botvinnik you'll be fine. 

It's interesting that despite all your comments to the contrary, even you admit that the Budapest isn't good enough to play against strong opposition.  I have a feeling that many of the difficulties you and I have had, Udav, have been due to our not understanding each other.  I'm beginning to gather that when you say that something is "better" for Black, you just mean that it's playable. Is this right?


I never had any difficulties with you,you just allways tried to anger me,no matter what was said.If someone said something against a variation I had shown ,you felt allways that this had to be backed with some annoying posts,which are directed against me.
But I am not angry with you about this,I just exploited your corrupt posts to exersise my english language for the Abitur Wink ,so in fact I have to thank you . Smiley (one advice: If you have some problems with someone here,just send him a personal message not to distract all the members here)
Also I have never said that black is better ,if white plays the best moves(Or do you see any post,where I said such stupid think?)
There was only one interessting line,where black was slight better,because white played not acurate enough.
At least I have to say,that the Bpg is an interessting opening,which has some advantages(black can win really quickly,if white dont know how to play against it)
But if white does know how to play, it will be difficult for black to hold the resulting positions unless black is a comp.
As I am too bad to find such good moves for black like a comp. I want to swich to some other opening and hopefully I will have a chance to use the Bpg against some weak player in a tournament not to have done all this work for nothing.
I wish you all good luck in your chesscareer and maybe some day I will read in the news,that some guy here used our discussed ideas to defeat a GM  Wink
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #138 - 08/14/07 at 13:20:17
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I've played 1.c4 c6 as Black for quite some time and have very rarely faced 1...e4.  From a practical perspective, if you just review some of the ideas behind the Panov-Botvinnik you'll be fine. 

It's interesting that despite all your comments to the contrary, even you admit that the Budapest isn't good enough to play against strong opposition.  I have a feeling that many of the difficulties you and I have had, Udav, have been due to our not understanding each other.  I'm beginning to gather that when you say that something is "better" for Black, you just mean that it's playable. Is this right?
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #137 - 08/14/07 at 10:00:38
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Yes, but it is only universal when you combine it with the Caro-Kann: 1.c4 c6 2.e4.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #136 - 08/14/07 at 09:33:48
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Sorry,I will not have much time any more to analyze the Bpg ,because I have to learn for Abitur a lot now,also I will have to play in the first Team ,of my chessclub next year and ,because of this I need a solid repertoire for black now.
The Bpg will not be good enough against my oponents next year.I want to switch now to a better +universal opening.
Do you think that Slav is a good option?
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #135 - 08/13/07 at 01:11:28
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Udav18 wrote on 08/12/07 at 10:46:02:
Jea,I played this plan myself,but black can only hope for a draw in my view,it was really difficult to organize an attack,and if I was able to create one,white could always trade the e5-Night and blacks attack was too weak.
What i am looking for is a plan which gives black equal chances.
Here is also an example what can happen ,if black take on c3 later.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3 Qe7 7. Qd5 f6 8. exf6 Nxf6 9. Qd3 d6 10. e3 O-O 11. Be2 Ne4 12. O-O Bxc3
13. bxc3 Bf5 14. Qd5+ Kh8 15. Rac1 g5 16. Bg3 h5 17. Nd4 Bg6 18. f3 Nxg3 19.
hxg3 Qxe3+ 20. Kh2 Bf7 21. Qe4 Rae8 22. Qxe3 Rxe3 23. Rc2 Nxd4 24. cxd4 Rxe2
25. Rxe2 Bxc4 26. Rfe1 Bxe2 27. Rxe2 Kg7 28. Kg1 Kf7 29. Kf2 Re8 30. Rb2 b6 31.
f4 Re4 32. Rd2 Kf6 33. fxg5+ Kxg5 34. Kf3 d5 35. Rc2 Rxd4 36. Rxc7 Rd3+ 37. Kf2
Rd2+ 38. Ke3 Rxa2 39. Rg7+ Kf6 40. Rh7 Kg6 41. Re7 Ra1 42. Kd4 Rd1+ 43. Kc3 Rg1
44. Re2 Kf5 45. Kd4 Rd1+ 46. Ke3 d4+ 47. Kf2 a5 48. Rb2 a4 49. Rxb6 a3 50. Ra6
Ra1 51. Ke2 a2 52. Kd2 Rg1 0-1

After the move 10.g3! I think a good plan for black might also be Nc5 and Nca5.

Scholar,what Rating do you have?You seem to know a lot about the Bpg.


Udav, I think you've mentioned at least the stem of this game before.  However, it doesn't show that there is any independent merit in delaying the capture on c3, because the position on the board after 13.bxc3 is a transposition to similar lines after 6...Bxc3.  Do you see this?  It may be that this line is slightly better than what Black usually gets, but that's because White has made some mistakes.

Indeed, the idea of delaying capture on c3 is flawed.  White can obtain a better game simply by preventing his c-pawn from being doubled.  He has many opportunities to do this, from 7.Rc1 (of independent interest, although protecting the knight with the queen is also possible) to 11.0-0-0 (when White retains his structure and the pawn).  Even 11.Nd2 is probably better than Be2, for the same reason.  Look at some games and try to convince yourself of this fact.   If you're unconvinced, you should be able to give concrete reasons.

The Budapest (at least with 3...Ng4 -- I know almost nothing about 3...Ne4 lines) is not a good opening to play if you are determined to avoid positions with no chances for simplified material.  Often, White has the opportunity to force (say) the exchange of queens and three pairs of minor pieces.  Of course, there are not many openings where Black can force complications without taking the worst of it, at least to some extent.

As for myself, I am an amateur; the Budapest is just one of the few openings I have analyzed in detail.

I think I'll take a few days break from posting in this thread to give you some time to look through what I've written.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #134 - 08/12/07 at 10:46:02
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Jea,I played this plan myself,but black can only hope for a draw in my view,it was really difficult to organize an attak,and if I was able to create one,white could allways trade the e5-Night and blacks attak was to weak.
What i am looking for is a plan which gives black equal chances.
Here is also an example what can happen ,if black take on c3 later.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3 Qe7 7. Qd5 f6 8. exf6 Nxf6 9. Qd3 d6 10. e3 O-O 11. Be2 Ne4 12. O-O Bxc3
13. bxc3 Bf5 14. Qd5+ Kh8 15. Rac1 g5 16. Bg3 h5 17. Nd4 Bg6 18. f3 Nxg3 19.
hxg3 Qxe3+ 20. Kh2 Bf7 21. Qe4 Rae8 22. Qxe3 Rxe3 23. Rc2 Nxd4 24. cxd4 Rxe2
25. Rxe2 Bxc4 26. Rfe1 Bxe2 27. Rxe2 Kg7 28. Kg1 Kf7 29. Kf2 Re8 30. Rb2 b6 31.
f4 Re4 32. Rd2 Kf6 33. fxg5+ Kxg5 34. Kf3 d5 35. Rc2 Rxd4 36. Rxc7 Rd3+ 37. Kf2
Rd2+ 38. Ke3 Rxa2 39. Rg7+ Kf6 40. Rh7 Kg6 41. Re7 Ra1 42. Kd4 Rd1+ 43. Kc3 Rg1
44. Re2 Kf5 45. Kd4 Rd1+ 46. Ke3 d4+ 47. Kf2 a5 48. Rb2 a4 49. Rxb6 a3 50. Ra6
Ra1 51. Ke2 a2 52. Kd2 Rg1 0-1

After the move 10.g3! I think a good plan for black might also be Nc5 and Nca5.

Scholar,what Rating do you have?You seem to know a lot about the Bpg.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #133 - 08/11/07 at 22:09:10
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Excellent, back to chess.

I don't find this position that disagreeable for Black, and in my limited database, Black scores quite well.  Although 13...Nxf2 is probably too enterprising, Black can play simply with 13...Nc5 and perhaps 14...Ne5.  There are some other possibilities, of course, but this plan is not under fire to my knowledge.  There is the usual lack of high-level examples, but something like following gives some indication of the play.  Black's pieces have good squares.

The most critical lines are the g3 ones, I think.

Vukic,M (2470) - Rogers,I (2450) [A52]
Reggio Emilia (2), 1983

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 Qe7 8.Qd5 f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.Qd3 d6 11.e3 0-0 12.Be2 Ne4 13.Nd4 Nc5 14.Qd1 Ne5 15.0-0 Kh8 16.Rc1 Bd7 17.Qc2 Qf7 18.Bxe5 dxe5 19.Nf3 Qe7 20.Nd2 Bc6 21.Bf3 e4 22.Be2 Rf6 23.Nb3 Rh6 24.Nxc5 Qxc5 25.Rcd1 Qe5 26.h3 Qg5 27.Bg4 Rg6 28.Qe2 Qa5 ½-½
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #132 - 08/11/07 at 10:18:04
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I had really to be more precise,sorry for that,but it was late ,when I wrote this post and was to lazy to write down the variations.
But ok E.g
After 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3  Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 Qe7 8. Qd5
f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qd3 d6 11. e3 O-O 12. Be2 Ne4
whte has the option to play  13. Nd4!
insted of 13.0-0,which would lead to the better line for black.
If the N was still on c3, Nd4 would be not so strong,because black would simply take on d4 and,white wouldnt have the move bxc.
But I have to agree with you that 6...Bxc3 is also a really good option,maybe there are some better possibilities for black in this variation,though I didnt find any so far.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #131 - 08/11/07 at 00:39:03
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I don't really have anything to add to the ...0-0-0 discussion, so I won't.  If any interesting lines are posted, I'll look at them, but for me, it seems a nonstarter.

Udav18 wrote on 08/10/07 at 21:38:47:
The difference,between taking on c3 in the 6th move or as in the variation with a later Bxc3 is,that in the second case black nearly forces white to the discussed positions ,but after 6...Bxc3 not only black is flexible ,but white is more flexible ,too.The problem is that black cant use his flexibility,because there arent any better moves for him(or can you find any better moves?)But white has many posibiities to cut the lines and go for something better.
Just check the differences with the comp.,if you dont trust me Wink

Emphasis added.

I've already posted (twice now) one reason that Black might prefer the 6...Bc3 move order.  I invite you to reply directly to that, or provide White's options in the 6...Bxc3 line, are you referring to 10.Qg5 or some similarly-favored computer move?  I am not impressed.

I will give a deviation for you to consider, though: 6...Qe7 7.Rc1.

At any rate, I am already growing bored with this discussion.  Provide some moves to back up your assertions; they don't really make sense to me.  If you have a reason, just give it; I have better things to do then make guesses as to what your computer thinks is an improvement on theory.

N.B.  "Possible"  I'm not usually a spelling nit, but you've done this a few times already.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #130 - 08/10/07 at 23:24:28
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Would be fun with some games in these positions between for example Udav18 as black and some of the other humans who clearly prefer white here as white.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #129 - 08/10/07 at 21:38:47
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"lines I.A and I.B transpose at move 13 to the lines with 6...Bxc3, so please make more explicit why you are opposed to that move

6. Nc3 Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 Qe7 8. Qd5 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qd3 d6 11. g3 Ne5 is one possibility to improve on transposing (which is why one should consider the more flexible move order)

line II -- the moves d6/Bd7 are not so terrible, but the idea of 0-0-0 against everything is -- Dink is spot on here, 11.a3 Bxd2 12.Qxd2 0-0-0 13.Qc3 and White is much better, with c5 the most important and immediate threat.  In the long-term, White's pawns also get their first.  Now, 11.a3 Bxd2 12.Qxd2 Ng6 13.Bg3?! h5 might lead to lines where Black can consider castling queenside, but this is another story; I still prefer the lines I discussed earlier in the thread."


The difference,between taking on c3 in the 6th move or as in the variation with a later Bxc3 is,that in the second case black nearly forces white to the discussed positions ,but after 6...Bxc3 not only black is flexible ,but white is more flexible ,too.The problem is that black cant use his flexibility,because there arent any better moves for him(or can you find any better moves?)But white has many posibiities to cut the lines and go for something better.
Just check the differences with the comp.,if you dont trust me Wink
Also I dont understand yet,why 0-0-0 is so bad as you all mentioned.OK after Qc3 black playes f6 and I dont see any reason why white has to be better.Black has enough counterplay on the KS.
If you say that white has the easier play,then I have to agree,but I dont see any advanatge for white,if black knows what he has to do.
After the lines with 0-0-0 I played in fact about 10 games now against Fritz10 and often ,they ended up in a equal ending.
OK let us analyze the position:
White has
-the Bishoppair
-more space in the centre
-allready pushed c4 pawn
-no weaknesses on the KS
Black has some dynamic advantages:
-the d7 Bishop can come to c6 and will stay better as the e2 Bishop for the attak.
-the e5 Night is placed very well(White can neutralize this advantage by loosing his Bishoppair advantage)
-g5 is coming with a tempo
-black has no weaknesses on the QS

I think that is enough compensation.This analyzes are similar to Najdorf-analyzes,where white has often space,good-placed peaces ,but black has dynamic advantages as compensation.
Ok I might be also wrong,because I am not a super GM and comp. make also a lot of mistakes.



  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #128 - 08/10/07 at 18:50:32
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Udav18 wrote on 08/10/07 at 09:56:41:
Scholar wrote on 08/10/07 at 03:30:59:
I'm a little late rejoining this thread, but as an occasional Budapest practitioner, I'll add some thoughts.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3

All of the discussion here follows 6...Qe7.  Why not 6...Bxc3?  Perhaps this is a matter of taste, but considering that Udav18 gave lines which focused on doubling that pawn with a later Bxc3, one wonders why Black doesn't do it at the most convenient time.

The lines seem to transpose, but I see no reason to prefer Udav's move order, especially since Black gets some other options which may prove to be stronger.

In the 6.Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 lines the idea of d6/Bd7/0-0-0 seems somewhat misguided as for Black --can castling queenside ever be good? -- but I'll have to take a closer look before commenting more.  9...0-0 seems entirely satisfactory to me from Black's point of view.

Edit:  Another possibility is 11...Ne5 in
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nc3 Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 Qe7 8. Qd5 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qd3 d6 11. g3 Ne5
I am not sure that this is an improvement, but it should be part of the discussion.


6...Bxc3 leads to the "old" variation ,which is known as better for white.The new idea was not to take the N on c3 and to use later this Night for a pin and so to get better chances.
Black has sadly no " other options which may prove to be stronger."


OK.  Here's my question for you -- the two lines have the possibility to transpose, since as you recognized yourself, taking on c3 with the knight is too slow.  So one has the possibility of two move orders, the old, direct way, and a new less forcing method.  In the absence of a specific line discrediting the 6...Bxc3 lines, I will repeat my claim that it makes more sense.  As far as being stronger, you will note that I provided one idea, albeit without much analysis.  The point is that 6...Bxc3 is more flexible, if doubling the pawns on c3 is your aim.

Quote:
The idea 0-0-0 is  a matter of taste,0-0 is also ok,but in my view 0-0-0 gives black more chances to win,(but also to lose)
After 9...0-0 both sides have very little chances to win.


I agree with Dink here, this is coffeehouse chess.  Castling queenside is positional suicide.


Quote:
11...Ne5 was in fact the idea of not to take on c3 too early.

I want to post again the summary of the variations we found out to give you the possibility to join this discussion,with the knowledge and the standing we have now.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+
a 6.Nc3 Qe7 7.Qd5 f6 8.exf Nxf! 9.Qd3 0-0 

A 10.g3! d6 11. Bg2 Ne4 12.0-0 Bxc3! 13.bxc Nc5 14.Qe3! Be6 15. Nd4! Qd7! 16. Nxe6 Nxe6 += 
B 10.e3?! d6 11.Be2 Ne4 12.0-0 Bxc3 13.bxc Bf5 14.Qd5+ Kh8! 15.Rac1 g5! 16. Bg3 h5! 17.Nd4 Bg6 =+

b 6. Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 9...d6 10.0-0 Bd7!?

A 11.a3 Bxd2 12. Qxd2 0-0-0  =
B11.Nb3 0-0-0 = 
C11.Nf3 Ng6 12.Bg3 0-0 = 
D11.Nb1 Qe6! 12.a3 Ba5 13.b4 Bb6 14.Qc2! 0-0 (+=) or (=)



No need to repeat yourself, chessfriend; I read the thread before I replied.  I see that you did not give me the same courtesy.  To summarize:

lines I.A and I.B transpose at move 13 to the lines with 6...Bxc3, so please make more explicit why you are opposed to that move

6. Nc3 Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 Qe7 8. Qd5 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qd3 d6 11. g3 Ne5 is one possibility to improve on transposing (which is why one should consider the more flexible move order)

line II -- the moves d6/Bd7 are not so terrible, but the idea of 0-0-0 against everything is -- Dink is spot on here, 11.a3 Bxd2 12.Qxd2 0-0-0 13.Qc3 and White is much better, with c5 the most important and immediate threat.  In the long-term, White's pawns also get their first.  Now, 11.a3 Bxd2 12.Qxd2 Ng6 13.Bg3?! h5 might lead to lines where Black can consider castling queenside, but this is another story; I still prefer the lines I discussed earlier in the thread.

@SF -- Thanks!
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #127 - 08/10/07 at 16:59:28
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Quote:
I want to post again the summary of the variations we found out to give you the posibility to join this discussion,with the knowledge and the standing we have now.

Emphasis is mine.  I didn't change the wording.


Please understand:  Not all of us agree with this.  The thread was started last year and is titled "Budapest Ideas".  Please feel free to discuss your ideas as well as those of others.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #126 - 08/10/07 at 15:32:14
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This Q-side castling is just coffee-house nonsense. There is no sound basis for opposite-side castling in this position, except a desire to arbitrarily add some 'spice' to the position, coffee-house style.

White's play is so much easier than Black's, for example:
11) a3 Bxd2
12) Qxd2 000 (your assessment: '='; my assessment ' Grin'
13) Qc3, followed by Rac1, Rfd1 and c5, or similar. Its going to take some fancy footwork by Black to stay afloat.

(I'm not sure that 11 a3, conceding the tempo battle is best, but 0-0-0 fully justifies White's play.)
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #125 - 08/10/07 at 09:56:41
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Scholar wrote on 08/10/07 at 03:30:59:
I'm a little late rejoining this thread, but as an occasional Budapest practitioner, I'll add some thoughts.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3

All of the discussion here follows 6...Qe7.  Why not 6...Bxc3?  Perhaps this is a matter of taste, but considering that Udav18 gave lines which focused on doubling that pawn with a later Bxc3, one wonders why Black doesn't do it at the most convenient time.

The lines seem to transpose, but I see no reason to prefer Udav's move order, especially since Black gets some other options which may prove to be stronger.

In the 6.Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 lines the idea of d6/Bd7/0-0-0 seems somewhat misguided as for Black --can castling queenside ever be good? -- but I'll have to take a closer look before commenting more.  9...0-0 seems entirely satisfactory to me from Black's point of view.

Edit:  Another possibility is 11...Ne5 in
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nc3 Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 Qe7 8. Qd5 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qd3 d6 11. g3 Ne5
I am not sure that this is an improvement, but it should be part of the discussion.


6...Bxc3 leads to the "old" variation ,which is known as better for white.The new idea was not to take the N on c3 and to use later this Night for a pin and so to get better chances.
Black has sadly no " other options which may prove to be stronger."

The idea 0-0-0 is  a matter of taste,0-0 is also ok,but in my view 0-0-0 gives black more chances to win,(but also to lose)
After 9...0-0 both sides have very little chances to win.

11...Ne5 was in fact the idea of not to take on c3 too early.

I want to post again the summary of the variations we found out to give you the posibility to join this discussion,with the knowledge and the standing we have now.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+
a 6.Nc3 Qe7 7.Qd5 f6 8.exf Nxf! 9.Qd3 0-0 

A 10.g3! d6 11. Bg2 Ne4 12.0-0 Bxc3! 13.bxc Nc5 14.Qe3! Be6 15. Nd4! Qd7! 16. Nxe6 Nxe6 += 
B 10.e3?! d6 11.Be2 Ne4 12.0-0 Bxc3 13.bxc Bf5 14.Qd5+ Kh8! 15.Rac1 g5! 16. Bg3 h5! 17.Nd4 Bg6 =+

b 6. Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 9...d6 10.0-0 Bd7!?

A 11.a3 Bxd2 12. Qxd2 0-0-0  =
B11.Nb3 0-0-0 = 
C11.Nf3 Ng6 12.Bg3 0-0 = 
D11.Nb1 Qe6! 12.a3 Ba5 13.b4 Bb6 14.Qc2! 0-0 (+=) or (=)

  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #124 - 08/10/07 at 05:58:07
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BTW,

It's good to see you back in the forum, and congrats on breaking 500 posts!
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #123 - 08/10/07 at 05:57:09
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Scholar,

Your ideas have more teeth than have been mentioned recently.  I was happy as White against Qe7 and Bd7 ideas.  I'll have to look more closely at your suggestions.  Your moves fight more directly for the initiative and I think that's essential if Black is to have a prayer in this opening.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #122 - 08/10/07 at 03:30:59
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I'm a little late rejoining this thread, but as an occasional Budapest practitioner, I'll add some thoughts.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3

All of the discussion here follows 6...Qe7.  Why not 6...Bxc3?  Perhaps this is a matter of taste, but considering that Udav18 gave lines which focused on doubling that pawn with a later Bxc3, one wonders why Black doesn't do it at the most convenient time.

The lines seem to transpose, but I see no reason to prefer Udav's move order, especially since Black gets some other options which may prove to be stronger.

In the 6.Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 lines the idea of d6/Bd7/0-0-0 seems somewhat misguided as for Black -- can castling queenside ever be good? -- but I'll have to take a closer look before commenting more.  9...0-0 seems entirely satisfactory to me from Black's point of view.

Edit:  Another possibility is 11...Ne5 in
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nc3 Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 Qe7 8. Qd5 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qd3 d6 11. g3 Ne5
I am not sure that this is an improvement, but it should be part of the discussion.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #121 - 08/09/07 at 17:46:21
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It seems,that after 10.Ne4 black just has to go for Bf8.I dont like this move,but in the view of Frit10 and Rybka2.3.2 black is fine.And indeed I couldnt find a way for white to go for a win .Black has allways somewhere counterplay,but as black I feel not free and the fact that the B ishop on f8 will be closed with d6 is also unpleasent.Is here anyone,who can try to motivate me in this position and who can find some good plans for black? Undecided
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #120 - 08/09/07 at 13:50:29
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Alas I am not going to help you (to break that barrier), as I always have found 4.Nf3 Bc5 5.e3 a bit artificial. In my ancient notes I have 10.Ne4 Bf8 as in a game Brenninkmeijer-Piket. I can imagine that withdrawing this bishop is not to your taste.

Well,in my opinion white has to waste time.Of course he drives the Bishop away with tempo.However the Bishop wanted to go to b6 anyway and black had to waste two tempos to do that.By pushing him away white waste time to help black with his plan.
That was in fact my general idea.


Granted, but similarly White wants to play a3 and b4 anyway and the bishop on b6 is also a target. So you cannot say White wastes tempi.
The final verdict has to be: we will have to wait seeing this stuff practized in games; until then we agree to disagree.

Thanks, it was fun.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #119 - 08/09/07 at 10:50:58
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Why?No,I would like to breach the 200-replies-      barrier  Grin
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #118 - 08/09/07 at 10:29:15
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Maybe you should start a new thread on 4 Nf3 then?
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #117 - 08/09/07 at 10:17:44
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"1. to waste time to drive the Bishop away,that he cant take this Knight.
Not true. The moves a3 and b4 go with tempo, as the bishop has to move as well. In fact this very bishop is the main target of White's strategy."


Well,in my opinion white has to waste time.Of course he drives the Bishop away with tempo.However the Bishop wanted to go to b6 anyway and black had to waste two tempos to do that.By pushing him away white waste time to help black with his plan.
That was in fact my general idea.

I would like to stop analyzing the Bf4 line,because it is impossible to analyze all the variations.By the way we are searching now on move 17.!
I think it is much better to know ideas instead of moves.
I would really like to start analyzing 4.Nf3 now,if everybody agree.

There is a way for black to build up an attak.
Eg.
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Nf3 Bc5 5. e3 Nc6 6.Be2 Ngxe5 7. Nxe5 Nxe5 8. O-O O-O 9. Nc3 Re8 10. b3 a5 11. Bb2 Ra6
I have analyzed this a lot and it seems,that black has more chances to win.However there is a line with Qd5+Ne4 where white can equalize or maybe get a slight advantage.

But actually I want to analyze the very annoying 10.Ne4
Suddanly black has to move his bishop to an unpleasent position and ,if black wants to play the plan a5,Ra6,Rh6 there is the move
c4-c5,which makes sure that black cannot play Ra6.
If there will be no way tio attak on the KS ,black will have a bad position.So I really need some new ideas here,otherwise this variation will force me some time to quit the Bpg. Cry
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #116 - 08/09/07 at 02:19:07
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You are right. I thought White would have problems playing Nb1-c3, but that is not the case: 11.Nb1 Qe6 12.a3 Ba5 13.b4 Bb6 14.Qc2 0-0 15.Rd1 Rae8/Rfe8 (f5? 16.c5) 16.Nc3 Nxc4? 17.Nd5 Ne5 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.Qc5 +-. 15...Bc6 16.Nc3 Nxc4 17.b5 Bd7 18.Nd5 is the same. Even after 15...Rac8 16.Nc3 Nxc4 17.a4 a5 18.Nd5 White has good play.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #115 - 08/08/07 at 21:52:00
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After 14 Qc2 I agree that 0-0 is better than 0-0-0. However 15. c5 is a bad move. I suggest instead 15. Rd1. with a slight advantage.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #114 - 08/08/07 at 21:33:22
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Udav is right, stating that White's play is slow. But so is Black's.
I rejected (after 11.Nb1 Qe6 12.a3 Ba5 13.b4 Bb6)

a) 14.Qc2 because of 0-0 15.c5 dxc5 16.bxc5 Ba5 17.Nc3 Qg6 and White has nothing.

so instead
b) 14.Qb3 Ng6 15.Bg3 h5 16.h4

But I have to admit having overlooked
b1) 16.h4 Ne7 though 17.e4 is not very clear: Qxe4 (g5!?) 18.Bf3 Qd4 (Qg6) 19.Qc3 0-0 (I don't trust 0-0-0 once again) 20.Rad1 Qf6 21.Bxb7 Rab8 22.Bf3 Qg6 (but see Black's 18th move).
b2) So it must be 16.h3, when Ne7 can be met with 17.Nc3, eg g5 (Nf5 does not make sense now) 18.Nd5 and alas for Black the pawns race h4 19.Bh2 f5 20.a4 favours White.

One final remark. Counting tempi is a tricky business.

1. to waste time to drive the Bishop away,that he cant take this Knight.
Not true. The moves a3 and b4 go with tempo, as the bishop has to move as well. In fact this very bishop is the main target of White's strategy.

2. White has to cover the c4 pawn
Partly true. While pawn c4 being pinned restricts White's play somewhat, one cannot say, that b3 is an inferior square for the queen compared to d1 - on the contrary!

3.he has to bring his Knight to c3 and then to d5.
True. Then again, Bd7 and Ke8 are not ideally placed either and that will take two move as well. Nd2-b1-c3-d5 is three moves. As the latter is connected with concrete threats, Black should hurry.

Udav, I hope you will waste some more time.  Wink
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #113 - 08/08/07 at 19:17:06
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(I said that 5.Nbd2 was correct instead of 5.Nd2.  I was looking at the board after 4.Nf3, sorry about the confusion on my part.)
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #112 - 08/08/07 at 17:26:39
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/08/07 at 14:55:45:
Chessguy wrote on 08/08/07 at 14:24:33:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe Ng4 4. Bf4 Bb4+ 5. Nd2 d6!?

5. Nc3 is also a legal move.

... Maybe this is a variation that would avoid whites slight advantage and catch opponents unaware? 


5.Nc3 is not quite as strong, or as popular, as 5.Nbd2 (please note that either Knight could have gone to d2).  I have not seen any evidence yet that Black is doing anything more than surviving in this line, and it's not even my first choice for White!  So far, this thread has actually convinced me that 4.Bf4 is certainly quite a good move for White to gain a clear advantage. 

This surprises me because I've known two masters, a 2200 and a 2400 player who have played the Budapest as Black over the board.  The 2200 player just brutalized his opponents tactically but lost every Budapest game he played against me.  I never played the Budapest against the 2400 rated player who said that it was fun but not quite good enough against a prepared opponent.  The 2400 rated player said he rather liked the complications that arose from 4.Bf4 and cited the games of the Australian Grandmaster, Ian Rogers.

The discussions I had with the Senior Master (a USCF designation) were all before 1996 when the relative popularity of the Budapest plummetted.  This thread has shown me that 10...Bd7 is probably just a mistake.  Black has to play extremely actively to have any chances at all.

I still wouldnt say that white has in any of the variations after Nd2 a clear advantage.As I showed there are many variations  where black can equalize  and play even for a win(different castlings /attak on QS vs. attak on KS.)
There was only one variation found by Chessguy,which leads to a slight advantage for white.

I want to summarize now what we found in the variations with 6.Nc3 and 6.Nd2 :

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+
a 6.Nc3 Qe7 7.Qd5 f6 8.exf Nxf! 9.Qd3 0-0

A 10.g3! d6 11. Bg2 Ne4 12.0-0 Bxc3! 13.bxc Nc5 14.Qe3! Be6 15. Nd4! Qd7! 16. Nxe6 Nxe6 +=
B 10.e3?! d6 11.Be2 Ne4 12.0-0 Bxc3 13.bxc Bf5 14.Qd5+ Kh8! 15.Rac1 g5! 16. Bg3 h5! 17.Nd4 Bg6 =+

b
6. Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 9...d6 10.0-0 Bd7!?

A 11.a3 Bxd2 12. Qxd2 0-0-0  =
B11.Nb3 0-0-0 =
C11.Nf3 Ng6 12.Bg3 0-0 =
D11.Nb1 Qe6! 12.a3 Ba5 13.b4 Bb6 14.Qc2! 0-0 (+=) or (=)

I think that are the lines which we produced and I think all of them are really fresh!! Cool








  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #111 - 08/08/07 at 14:55:45
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Chessguy wrote on 08/08/07 at 14:24:33:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe Ng4 4. Bf4 Bb4+ 5. Nd2 d6!?

5. Nc3 is also a legal move.

... Maybe this is a variation that would avoid whites slight advantage and catch opponents unaware?  


5.Nc3 is not quite as strong, or as popular, as 5.Nbd2 (please note that either Knight could have gone to d2).  I have not seen any evidence yet that Black is doing anything more than surviving in this line, and it's not even my first choice for White!  So far, this thread has actually convinced me that 4.Bf4 is certainly quite a good move for White to gain a clear advantage. 

This surprises me because I've known two masters, a 2200 and a 2400 player who have played the Budapest as Black over the board.  The 2200 player just brutalized his opponents tactically but lost every Budapest game he played against me.  I never played the Budapest against the 2400 rated player who said that it was fun but not quite good enough against a prepared opponent.  The 2400 rated player said he rather liked the complications that arose from 4.Bf4 and cited the games of the Australian Grandmaster, Ian Rogers.

The discussions I had with the Senior Master (a USCF designation) were all before 1996 when the relative popularity of the Budapest plummetted.  This thread has shown me that 10...Bd7 is probably just a mistake.  Black has to play extremely actively to have any chances at all.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #110 - 08/08/07 at 14:24:33
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I wish you keep on playing the Budapest Udav18! And maybe you should pull up another variation as a second weapon against 4 Bf4:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe Ng4 4. Bf4 Bb4+ 5. Nd2 d6!?

5. Nc3 is also a legal move.

This would however require a new thread. Maybe this is a variation that would avoid whites slight advantage and catch opponents unaware?
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #109 - 08/08/07 at 14:15:36
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Yea,good point!I overlooked this move.So after Nxc4 there is the very strong a4!! move.
Well white has rerally an advantage after 0-0-0 .Maybe 0-0 is better.I will analyze it Wink
Maybe some time black has to play f6 +cenralyze with moves like Rad8 and maybe start again an attak with g5?
I think that white will allways find ways to get a slight advantage in the Bpg,but if black knows the attaking ideas than black might play much faster than white and to defend with white is also not easy,if you are not an comp. Well I am now convinced that the line with 4.Bf4 offers white a slight advantage,if white had read our posts  Smiley
I do not have an Elo,because i dont have time to play international tournaments.But at playchess.com my Elo was  about 2300,but I have not played there for a few months,because I waste too much time analyzing for the Bpg Grin

  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #108 - 08/08/07 at 13:38:51
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Udav18 wrote on 08/08/07 at 13:18:56:
Well,MNb wanted to know a way for black to play against the plan with Nd5,after Qc2 Nc3 will not be possible,beacause the c-pawn is than not enough protected. c5 will be answered with dxc and Ba5 and black will get the better pawnstructure.
So Qc2 is maybe not bad at all,but it is in some way not really consistent,because the Night will have to go again back to d2,if white wants to play for a win and doesnt want to let black destroy whites pawnstructure.
I am not sure yet,but I think something like 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4
Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nbd2 Qe7 7. e3 Ncxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9. Be2 d6 10. O-O Bd7 11. Nb1 Qe6 12. a3 Ba5 13. b4 Bb6
14. Qc2  O-O-O!?  15. c5 dxc5 16. bxc5 Ba5 17. Nc3 Qg6! 18. e4 Nc6 sholud give black good attaking chances on the one side and good defensive chances on the other side. But maybe white has some better options instead of 15.c5.Maybe just centralize and fight for space advantage with a move like 15.Qc3!?
then I would say 15...c6 16.Nd2 Bc7 and black had stabilized his central control and also made his king a little bit safer and the next plan will be to attak on the KS.




After 14. Qc2 0-0-0 I would still play Nc3! and dare you take that c pawn. White has a clear advantage in this position. I am sorry. By the way what is your Elo strength? You seem to be trying very hard at your analysis and I think that's good at least!
Anyway maybe it is not the end of the world if we may now conclude that white has a slight advantage after 11. Nb1 Qe6
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #107 - 08/08/07 at 13:33:55
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Udav18 wrote on 08/08/07 at 13:25:51:
Oh I made a mistake ,Not Night but Knight Grin Grin Grin
I just never wrote this word and I pronounce it the same way,so I thought you write it also the same way,but I noticed now that Knight is right. Grin Grin


It is though possible to modify a thread instead of writing a new thread about the misspelling..
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #106 - 08/08/07 at 13:25:51
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Oh I made a mistake ,Not Night but Knight Grin Grin Grin
I just never wrote this word and I pronounce it the same way,so I thought you write it also the same way,but I noticed now that Knight is right. Grin Grin
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #105 - 08/08/07 at 13:18:56
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Well,MNb wanted to know a way for black to play against the plan with Nd5,after Qc2 Nc3 will not be possible,beacause the c-pawn is than not enough protected. c5 will be answered with dxc and Ba5 and black will get the better pawnstructure.
So Qc2 is maybe not bad at all,but it is in some way not really consistent,because the Night will have to go again back to d2,if white wants to play for a win and doesnt want to let black destroy whites pawnstructure.
I am not sure yet,but I think something like 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4
Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nbd2 Qe7 7. e3 Ncxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9. Be2 d6 10. O-O Bd7 11. Nb1Qe6 12. a3 Ba5 13. b4 Bb6
14. Qc2  O-O-O!?  15. c5 dxc5 16. bxc5 Ba5 17. Nc3 Qg6! 18. e4 Nc6 sholud give black good attaking chances on the one side and good defensive chances on the other side. But maybe white has some better options instead of 15.c5.Maybe just centralize and fight for space advantage with a move like 15.Qc3!?
then I would say 15...c6 16.Nd2 Bc7 and black had stabilized his central control and also made his king a little bit safer and the next plan will be to attak on the KS.


  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #104 - 08/08/07 at 12:23:33
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I think 14. Qc2 is a better move than 14. Qb3. One point is that the c-pawn no longer is pinned due to Qe6xb3. This introduces c5 as a possibility in some variations. I challenge you Udav18 to find equality here. I am pretty certain that this gives white a slight advantage starting with 11. Nb1 Qe6 12. a3 Ba5 13. b4 Bb6 14. Qc2!
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #103 - 08/08/07 at 11:30:04
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You are totaly right!That was what I tried to say all the time.To be objective is difficult,if you have only your opinion.Sometimes I realize that some of the members here even dont look at the posts and try to convince someone with just their opinion.
E.g. if someone dont belive in the Bpg he just say everything against it not to accept the facts.I hope for the future that everyone can discuss here without fearing to become  an ... only because he has a different opinion. Wink
Also in my opinion it is not right to use instead of me or I ,us and we.This has the intention to present your own opinion as if it is the opinion of all the members here.
OK may I close this topic and go on with the Bpg?(Maybe this discussion is important and can be continued at the folder "Discussion")

"Sure, but I still don't see a satisfactory antidote against White's plan Nd2-b1-c3-d5. That knight is very strong there; it makes castling queenside for Black almost equal to suicide. If Black castles kingside White's progress will be slower, but once again the question will arise: were will Black's counterplay come from?"

Well,I think you overestimate the plan with Nd5 .To bring this Night to d5 White has
1. to waste time to drive the Bishop away,that he cant take this Night
2. White has to cover the c4 pawn and last but not least
3.he has to bring his Night to c3 and then to d5.
Black can use this time to  get counterplay.
OK here is a game played by a very strong player in my chessclub who play the Bpg for a long time and often analyze ideas for black with me.I dont want to show you the whole game,because black won it in an unimportant endgame,but I think the opening was really instructive.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6  5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nbd2 Qe7 7. e3 Ncxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9. Be2 d6 10. O-O Bd7 11. Nb1 Qe6!(I think I can give this move an exclamation mark,because this move looks to me unusual ,but effective) 12.a3 The first part of the plan is to drive the Bishop away Ba5 13. b4 Bb6 14.Qb3second part of the plan is to cover the c4 pawn Ng6!Black has no intention to castle now he want to attak on the KS,because white has to support the QS-pawns and lost a little bit of his center-control 15. Bg3 h5 16. h4 Ne7! with the intention not only to make his g-pawn moveable ,but also to bring his Night on the strong square f5 17. Nc3Now the last part of the plan Nf5 18. Nd5 Nxg3 19. fxg3 Bc6suddanly it appears that black will give up his Bishoppair for the Night which had to fight itself all the way to d5 20.Kh2 Bxd5 21. cxd5 Qe5 =
Black now has the better pawnstructure ,but with the different lightened Bishops white can hold the position easily with a good positional knowledge(That means e.g not to exchange too much peaces...).


Well I think that the variation with 4.Bf4 is playable for black,if black knows the ideas and moves like Qe6.What I am worry about is the line with 4.Nf3
If someone has some questions left to the line 4.Bf4 please post it,otherwise I would like to analyze the 4.Nf3 line.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #102 - 08/08/07 at 03:28:25
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Well, I was taught in a college philosophy class that animas comes from anima (the soul), but apparently the dictionaries only know of animus and anima (both used by Jung but predate him).  So I've learned to misspell the word or there is an older meaning.  Even so, there's too much that's taken personally here.  

Too much animus.  

Chessically (now that aint a word!), it comes from a priori certainty that a certain line is playable/unplayable and then working backwards from that point.  Of course we must form opinions about the openings we play, but we also need to weigh the evidence and come to informed conclusions.  At least, that's my belief.  
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #101 - 08/08/07 at 01:33:51
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I am not sure, if I understand you, maybe because I don't know what anima means. Anyhow, speaking for myself, I don't feel addressed personally at all in this thread. If others do, by me, I apologize, I had no intent.
In fact, I am enjoying myself. Moreover I hope, Udav shows up again with something interesting. The Budapest is one of those openings I don't trust, but would like to work one way or another.
As I finally (after years!) have decided to switch from 1.e4 to 1.d4, this 4.Bf4 variation will be my weapon against the Budapest. It feels good to me.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #100 - 08/07/07 at 21:16:07
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I still feel a lot of animas in this thread.  If there's any way to become more objective and not feel like this is personal, this may be a more fruitful discussion.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #99 - 08/07/07 at 20:21:52
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Sure, but I still don't see a satisfactory antidote against White's plan Nd2-b1-c3-d5. That knight is very strong there; it makes castling queenside for Black almost equal to suicide. If Black castles kingside White's progress will be slower, but once again the question will arise: were will Black's counterplay come from?
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #98 - 08/07/07 at 10:17:31
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Well,you wanted to see some ideas.a5 is an idea to fight against the pawnstorm of white on the QS.
a5 has not to be played only on move 15 and has not to be seen as a single move,but rather as an idea to slow down whites attak.
E.g. b6 has a similar idea.Maybe in some positions b5 , a6 or some similar move slowes the attak down.
Of course the game was really bad played by both sides,because we both had 10 min for it,but anyway you can see some ideas for black and white.

  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #97 - 08/07/07 at 03:36:11
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I am afraid there is a little misundertanding. As ...a5 worked so nicely in answer to 15.a4, I have investigated if this move also was possible somewhere after 15.Nc3. The answer is a firm no, mainly because of x.Nd5xb6.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #96 - 08/06/07 at 21:08:58
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MNb wrote on 08/06/07 at 20:22:27:
Udav18 wrote on 08/06/07 at 09:31:00:
The plan for black is just to attak on the KS and try to slow down the attak of white.(I hope I dont need to explain how to attak.You can buy the DVD's of GM Danial King to train your attaking skills,if you want to know how to attak in such types of positions)


No, (smiley intended, but somehow I have lost that option) but maybe I can teach you a bit. One important rule, when attacking, is: involve as many pieces as possible.

12.a3!? Ba5 13.b4 Bb6 14.Qb3 O-O-O!? 15.Nc3 idea 16.Nd5 (another important attacking idea: centralization of the knight) maintaining an advantage. A sample line is 15.Nc3 Ng6 16.Bg3 h5 17.h4 (White can use such ideas as well!) f5 18.Rfe1 Rdf8 19.Nd5 Bc6 20.a4 f4 21.exf4 Bxd5 22.cxd5 Qf6 23.a5 Bd4 24.Rac1 and White's attacking chances are more concrete. Another one is 15.Nc3 Rhg8 16.Nd5 g5 17.Bg3 h5? 18.c5 winning. Your idea to play ...a5 leads to disaster.

OK you are just too good for me.But it would be interessting to know what you would have played instead of a5.

  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #95 - 08/06/07 at 20:22:27
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Udav18 wrote on 08/06/07 at 09:31:00:
The plan for black is just to attak on the KS and try to slow down the attak of white.(I hope I dont need to explain how to attak.You can buy the DVD's of GM Danial King to train your attaking skills,if you want to know how to attak in such types of positions)


No, (smiley intended, but somehow I have lost that option) but maybe I can teach you a bit. One important rule, when attacking, is: involve as many pieces as possible.

12.a3!? Ba5 13.b4 Bb6 14.Qb3 O-O-O!? 15.Nc3 idea 16.Nd5 (another important attacking idea: centralization of the knight) maintaining an advantage. A sample line is 15.Nc3 Ng6 16.Bg3 h5 17.h4 (White can use such ideas as well!) f5 18.Rfe1 Rdf8 19.Nd5 Bc6 20.a4 f4 21.exf4 Bxd5 22.cxd5 Qf6 23.a5 Bd4 24.Rac1 and White's attacking chances are more concrete. Another one is 15.Nc3 Rhg8 16.Nd5 g5 17.Bg3 h5? 18.c5 winning. Your idea to play ...a5 leads to disaster.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #94 - 08/06/07 at 09:31:00
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"If you want to convince us, that Black's position is playable, show us a good plan for Black after 11.Nb1. "
OK E.g.
After 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4
Nc6  5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nbd2 Qe7 7. e3 Ncxe5 8.
Nxe5 Nxe5 9. Be2 d6 10. O-O Bd7 11. Nb1 Qe6 12. Qb3!?  Bc5 13. Nc3 O-O-O 14. a4
The plan for black is just to attak on the KS and try to slow down the attak of white.(I hope I dont need to explain how to attak.You can buy the DVD's of GM Danial King to train your attaking skills,if you want to know how to attak in such types of positions)
A rapid game played in the internet by me as black
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4
Nc6  5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nbd2 Qe7 7. e3 Ncxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9. Be2 d6 10. O-O Bd7 11. Nb1 Qe6 12. a3!? Ba5 13. b4 Bb6 14. Qb3 O-O-O!?Of course there are also other plans,but 0-0-0 is consistent
15. a4 a5an example how to slow down whites attak 16. bxa5 Bxa5 17. Nc3 Rhg8 preparation for the attak
18. Nd5 g5 19. Bg3 Bc6 combination of attak an defese,which is really usefull in such types of positions 20. Rfb1 f5 21. Ra2
b6 again a defensive move to prepare the attak on the KS(such moves have to be calculated ,because often such moves gives white the posibillity to reach the goal first) 22. Rab2 h5 23. Bxh5 g4 24. Bh4 Rd7 25. Nf4 Qxc4 26. Qxc4 Nxc4 27. Ra2 Rh7
28. Bf6 Kb7 29. h3?? gxh3 30. g3 h2+! 31. Kxh2 Bf3 0-1

Ok it was a rapid game with lots of mistakes,but anyway you can see here some ideas and the general plan for both sides.



  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #93 - 08/05/07 at 00:03:25
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Udav18 wrote on 08/04/07 at 19:56:03:
(If you wish I can analyze  the games to show some ideas)



I sincerely think this is the wrong way to use computers for developing opening theory. It is not that I am against Silicon Power. It is OK to steal ideas from them (like applying ideas from other variations or other openings). That is what S_F did when mentioning 14.Qc2 iso 14.Rc1. It is also OK to check tactics (S_F's mistake 16.b4?). But it is always the human chess player, who has to formulate plans and find out if they work.
The way I see it (but being a patzer there is no reason to believe me), White can make progress by gaining space on the queenside, evt. make use of the open a-file (after axb4; axb4) and/or prepare c4-c5. I don't see a good plan for Black. Like S_F wrote: "Black can only react to White's advances, and White does have targets all over the board." Hence my evaluation +=. Such evaluations cannot be made by computers (yet?).
So use your computers to analyse if you like (many of us do that here), but developing plans and evaluating positions remain your (our) task.
Even if you let your computers play 100 games in each variation, I will only shrug my shoulders. If you want to convince us, that Black's position is playable, show us a good plan for Black after 11.Nb1.

@ HgMan: of course. That is why I posted the game in the first place.

@S_F: I would say, that White must answer ...a4 with b3-b4. The weakness of that pawn a4 might be more important than its strength.
It is probably me, but I don't see White's advantage after 11.Nb1 a5 12.a3 Bc5 13.Nc3 a4 14.Rc1 0-0 15.Nd5 Qd8. Black now has a concrete plan: play the bishop to c6, take firm control of square e4 with ...f5. In the right circumstances Black may even attack with ...g5.
As you very well know, I am member of the Incurable Gambiteer's Association. After 14.Bxe5 Qxe5 15.Bf3 0-0 16.Bxb7 Rab8 17.Qf3 f5 18.Rfe1 f4 19.Bd5+ Kh8 20.exf4 Qxf4 21.Qxf4 Rxf4 I see active Black pieces and three weak White pawns.
I don't find 14.Ne4 convincing either. Black plays ...Bb6, 15...0-0 and again ...Bc6 and ...f5.
Fritz wants Whtie to play 14.b4 here. While I find this move counterintuitive, I have not found a road to equality. 14.b4 axb3 15.Qxb3 Bc6 16.Nd5 Qd8 17.Nb4 and now what? Black suffers from not having castled yet.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #92 - 08/04/07 at 20:31:18
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MNb wrote on 08/03/07 at 02:31:36:
Morss,M - Mousessian,J [A52]
corr 1996
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 d6 10.0–0 Bd7 11.Nb1 Ba5 12.a3 Qf6 13.Ra2 Bb6 14.Nc3 ½–½


It would be interesting to learn whether Markovitch still has any analysis from this game, and what his thoughts were after 11.Nb1...
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #91 - 08/04/07 at 20:09:44
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Udav18: You need to have the computers play several games in each line to be able to draw any conclusions at all about the lines in my opinion. The only way to accomplish that is if the engines can play against each other with you making moves on two computers. How do you match them against each other?
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #90 - 08/04/07 at 19:56:03
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As it seems that comp-comp games arent welcome here,I dont want to waste time analyzing them,but what I can say is that black could manage to equalize the position in a b c and d
But the results were
a 1-0
b 0-1
c 1/2-1/2
d 1/2-1/2
All games were decided in  endgames ,where computers are not as good as humans(with a good knowledge of endgames)
and made a lot of mistakes.
White could manage to gain space advantage ,but lost it all the time.Black had allways some ways to get counterplay.
there were some interessting ideas for both sides.
I think a is slight better for white,because here black has often only one good move and white has different good choices.
b,c and d seem to be really equal.
So at the moment I would say
a: +=
b: =
c: =
d: =

(If you wish I can analyze  the games to show some ideas)




  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #89 - 08/04/07 at 18:54:29
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I just checked with Fritz, and it found a serious flaw in my second variation: 16.b4 is probably losing.

14.Rc1 threatening 15.Ne4 and 15.Bxe5.  14.Rc1 f5?! (probably more to the point than 14...0-0) creates weaknesses that can probably be exploited. 15.Nd5 Qd8 and now  not 16.b4?? ab3 17.Qb3 c6! -+ but 16.Bh4+ g6 17.Bf3!? leads to a very nice advantage for White.

Fritz doesn't even consider 14.Rc1 among its main choices.  It rather likes 14.Qc2 with similar ideas.  Also, in the Rc1 line, it recommends 14...0-0, but gives White a small advantage.  I think the advantage is rather bigger than Fritz does.  Black can only react to White's advances, and White does have targets all over the board.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #88 - 08/04/07 at 18:37:51
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Ok, 13...a4 is a bit annoying.  But if Black is spending all his time pushing pawns on the q-side and not developing anything in the way of threats, White should be able to take advantage of this and play effectively in the center.

I have at least three candidate moves that do just that:  

14.Bxe5 Qxe5 (which I think is probably better than dxe5) 15.Bf3 and White is probably going to win a pawn without giving Black any real counterplay.

14.Rc1 threatening 15.Ne4 and 15.Bxe5.  14.Rc1 f5!? (probably more to the point than 14...0-0) creates weaknesses that can probably be exploited. 15.Nd5 Qd8 and now 16.b4 ab3 17.Qb3 Ra3 18.Qb7 Bb6 19.Be5! Ra7 20.Nc7+ Qc7 21.Qc7 Rc7 (or Bc7 22.Bg7) 22.Bd6 wins for White.

14.Ne4 and White simply plays for the advantage in the center.

Of course, these lines were made without computers, so I'm sure there will be improvements.  However, it's a good starting point for showing how difficult Black's game is.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #87 - 08/04/07 at 12:18:19
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MNb wrote on 08/04/07 at 03:16:25:
As 11.Nb1 a5 12.a3 Bc5 13.Nc3 a4 is slightly annoying, I propose 13.b3 first. I don't see how Black can make any progress. White's plan, knight to d5 and preparing b3-b4, is slow but effective.


Actually I think it is better for white to leave the b2 pawn and not play b3. In many variations it just gives black the possibility of a4 after b3. Especially in those variations where white plays Ne4xc5 and black has played dxc5. Deep Fritz 10 also assesses the variations without b3 slightly better for white.

I agree that there is the dual purpose of Nb1, to get it to d5. It seems that black has a pretty solid variation though. Pretty difficult for white to win. Not what Udav18 wants I guess.. By the way about computers analyzing, I think it says something about the quality of the position how good it scores for whit/black. Lots of computer games from one starting position may say something about the true quality of position? The best may be human games maybe, but since they are quite few on a high level, maybe computer games can add at least something.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #86 - 08/04/07 at 03:16:25
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As 11.Nb1 a5 12.a3 Bc5 13.Nc3 a4 is slightly annoying, I propose 13.b3 first. I don't see how Black can make any progress. White's plan, knight to d5 and preparing b3-b4, is slow but effective.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #85 - 08/04/07 at 02:21:48
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There is a second point to Nb1 apart from merely avoiding the capture:

The knight will be well placed on c3 and has gone from b1-c3-e4-d6! in at least one game.  ...a5 allows White to play a3 Bc5 Nc3 without really losing tempi because of the various Knight moves, the two Bishop moves, and ...a5.

Yes, ...a5 is a move that Black often makes anyway but here it's committing Black to a dour defensive struggle rather than the sort of counter-attack Black dreams of when playing the Budapest.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #84 - 08/03/07 at 23:45:13
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To me it seems after 11. Nb1 that 11... a5 is a natural move to stall the white queenside expansion. In my eyes although the purpose of Nb1 is to avoid Bxd2, it seems a bit time consuming.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #83 - 08/03/07 at 20:44:23
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Same with me. I always remove comp-comp games after downloading TWIC.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 d6 10.0-0 Bd7!? 11.Nb1 Qe6 12.a3 Ba5 13.Qd5 += (I think) and so is 12.a3 Bc5 13.Nc3 0-0 (you are not going to castle queenside, are you?) 14.Nd5.

It is always the same with those variations, where Black trades space for activity. White annihilates Black's counterplay and takes over the initiative, though precise play is required. My problem with the Budapest is, that Black has no counterblow in the centre available.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #82 - 08/03/07 at 19:46:16
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@Meat:

Agreed!  Chess games between computers leave me cold.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #81 - 08/03/07 at 18:43:58
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Quote:
If anyone want to make the same with another engine,it would be really cool.


Brain 1.0 would be my first choice.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #80 - 08/03/07 at 11:13:55
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I think Nb1 is also a really good move ,so lets analyze it ,too.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 9...d6 10.0-0 Bd7!?

a 11.a3 Bxd2 12. Qxd2 0-0-0 
b 11.Nb3 0-0-0 
c 11.Nf3 Ng6 12.Bg3 0-0 

d11.Nb1 Qe6(!)
If you agree to 11...Qe6 ,I would like to take this move as the main response,because I couldnt find anything better.
In the next few days I will show some games played by Rybka2.3.2 against Rybka2.3.2(I couldnt find a way to make a mach between Rybka and Fritz10 starting from the positions I wanted.But there is a way to let one engine continue a game from every position.
The time for every game is  1h.
If anyone want to make the same with another engine,it would be really cool.

  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #79 - 08/03/07 at 10:42:43
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/03/07 at 00:31:52:
FYI:  Here's a game that combined Black attacking White's kingside and castling Queenside from Udav's starting position.  



Karolyi,T (2440) - Shrentzel,M (2315) [A52]
Tel-Aviv BIKURI Tel Aviv, 1990

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 d6 10.0-0 Bd7 11.Nb1!? (This has not been listed as an option yet.) g5 (why waste time castling when you can start the attack immediately?) 12.Bg3 h5 13.a3 Ba5 14.b4 Bb6 15.Nc3 c6 16.Ne4 Bc7 17.c5 dxc5 18.bxc5 h4 19.Nd6+ Bxd6 20.cxd6 Qf6 21.Bxe5 Qxe5 22.Qb3 0-0-0 23.Ba6 bxa6 24.Rab1 Qb5 25.Qc3 1-0


Yes, Black blundered, but the position was pretty dire because the attack ws still too slow.


Strangely enough I played against the same guy (FM Shrentzel) just five months ago in a league game, but against me he answered 10.0-0 with Bxd2, not allowing 11.Nb1 (which I was unlikely to find anyway). I got a tiny edge after 11.Qxd2 Bd7 12.Rac1 0-0 13.c5 but the game ended in a draw nevertheless.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #78 - 08/03/07 at 10:28:18
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11.Nb1!? is a nice positional move.
I analyzed it a bit and it might be that 11...Qe6(!) is a strong positional response.
Why Qe6?
1.It attaks c4 and because of this ,it slows down the QS attak.
2.After Nc3 there is often the annoying move Nd5,which attaks the Queen .
3.Now the queen is placed really well and can react quickly and flexible.

But I am not sure yet,if this is the best move in this position.
Anyhow 11...Qe6 gives black good attaking chances I would say.
However, 11...g5 seems to be a mistake,which I would have surely made in a realy game,without analyzing this position.
This attak is indeed too slow compared to whites attak on the QS.











  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #77 - 08/03/07 at 02:31:36
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Thanks, both Chessguy and Smyslov_Fan.
Giving up the pair of bishops voluntarily in an halfopen position always looks like admitting strategic failure to me. So if 10...Bxd2 really is best, then my opinion is a sound, longlasting +=.
I have found two games, in which Black did better after 10...Bd7 11.Nb1:

Robertsson,M - Bogdanov,D (2090) [A52]
Copenhagen op 16 (7), 1994
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Bb4+ 5.Nd2 Nc6 6.Ngf3 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 d6 10.0–0 Bd7 11.Nb1 c6 12.a3 Ba5 13.b4 Bc7 14.Nc3 0–0 15.Bg3 f5 16.Qd4 Be6 17.f3 a5 18.e4 f4 19.Bf2 axb4 20.axb4 Rad8 21.Rfd1 Qf7 22.c5 dxc5 23.Qxc5 b6 0–1

Critical must be 12.Qb3 a5 13.a3 Bc5 14.Qxb7 0-0 15.Qb3. Fritz judges, that Black has some compensation, but I don't see it. Sure, pawn b2 is a bit weak, but is that really a problem in the long run?

Morss,M - Mousessian,J [A52]
corr 1996
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 d6 10.0–0 Bd7 11.Nb1 Ba5 12.a3 Qf6 13.Ra2 Bb6 14.Nc3 ½–½

Here I only can admit, that this game goes beyond my understanding.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #76 - 08/03/07 at 00:58:02
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Black's most usual response to 10.0-0 is Bxd2.  This makes sense considering that the N turns out stronger than the dark-squared Bishop most of the time.  It also gives Black the flexibility of holding off the decision to castle (either side) for the moment.  I think this is a better way for Black to play.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #75 - 08/03/07 at 00:31:52
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FYI:  Here's a game that combined Black attacking White's kingside and castling Queenside from Udav's starting position.  



Karolyi,T (2440) - Shrentzel,M (2315) [A52]
Tel-Aviv BIKURI Tel Aviv, 1990

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 d6 10.0-0 Bd7 11.Nb1!? (This has not been listed as an option yet.) g5 (why waste time castling when you can start the attack immediately?) 12.Bg3 h5 13.a3 Ba5 14.b4 Bb6 15.Nc3 c6 16.Ne4 Bc7 17.c5 dxc5 18.bxc5 h4 19.Nd6+ Bxd6 20.cxd6 Qf6 21.Bxe5 Qxe5 22.Qb3 0-0-0 23.Ba6 bxa6 24.Rab1 Qb5 25.Qc3 1-0


Yes, Black blundered, but the position was pretty dire because the attack ws still too slow.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #74 - 08/02/07 at 20:57:29
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1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 9...d6 10.0-0 Bd7!?

a 11.a3 Bxd2 12. Qxd2 0-0-0 
b 11.Nb3 0-0-0 
c 11.Nf3 Ng6 12.Bg3 0-0

Maybe this is it?
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #73 - 08/02/07 at 20:51:47
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Udav18 wrote on 08/02/07 at 13:29:12:
11.Ng3 is not a bad move,it has agreat idea.It is designed to play a3 and make weaknesses on the QS for black by exchanging the Bishop,if black castl short.
So the variation B is also one of the main continuations.
Also it was played against me by a player with 2112 Elo and 2200


You know, it would help if you would repeat the first 10 moves now and then. There is a chance, that I will get interested in the near future and then it is a bit annoying to have to look up how to reach this position.
Moreover you raise the chances, that we still will understand you in case of typos like 11.Ng3 iso 11.Nb3.

Thanks.  Wink
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #72 - 08/02/07 at 14:59:22
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So Chessguy you want to analyze the appearing positions?It wolud be really nice of you.
What I can say now is that this positions are just as any other sharp position with different castlingsides.
I have played them a few times against people in the internet and against Fritz 10 and black has indeed good chances.
The difficulty is to know when you have to attak and when to play devensive moves.But my games so far were full of mistakes on both sides and because of this they arent really usefull to show them here.
I want to start an mach between Rybka2.3.2 and Frit10 ,where they have to start from positions a ,b and c .It will take a few days maybe.I will show maybe some of them.
But for now lets analyze a.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #71 - 08/02/07 at 14:48:47
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He he Udav18, that was about time..
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #70 - 08/02/07 at 14:25:17
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Sorry I meant of course Nb3 Grin Grin Grin
I just play all the varitions in my brain and sometimes I just barter the letters or the numbers Grin
So b is 11.Nb3 and not Ng3.
Sorry again for this confusion.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #69 - 08/02/07 at 13:46:54
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Btw,

Your variation after 11.Nf3 shows that the idea of castling queenside is just bad.  You yourself use the computer to think for you and it castles kingside.  I'm not sure, but I think your line after 11.Nf3 transposes to other positions that have already been played.

I'll let you figure out for yourself why everyone is agreeing that 11.Ng3 is impossible.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #68 - 08/02/07 at 13:39:32
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Where is your knight placed before it moves to g3?
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #67 - 08/02/07 at 13:29:12
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11.Ng3 is not a bad move,it has agreat idea.It is designed to play a3 and make weaknesses on the QS for black by exchanging the Bishop,if black castl short.
So the variation B is also one of the main continuations.
Also it was played against me by a player with 2112 Elo and 2200
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #66 - 08/02/07 at 09:55:00
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That variation B I would be grateful if you would just remove in future posts? (sic) is used for a typo only. I will comment on variations A and C though. I will in my next post call variation C for B and ignore your current variation B.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #65 - 08/02/07 at 09:01:43
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Because the idea was  castling QS and after Nf3 it is not considerable.
OK If you wish lets analyze
a 11.a3 Bxd2 12. Qxd2 0-0-0 
b 11.Ng3 (sic) 0-0-0 
c 11.Nf3 Ng6 12.Bg3 0-0

"Did you by the way put those two positions in the last post into your analysis engine?"

Yes,but in such kinds of positions I think the  value of an engine is useless.
Anyhow Rybka2.3.2 showes a: = 0.18
                                        b: = 0.12
                                        c: = 0.13
But this results play the real situation down.The appearing positions are really sharp and interessting.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #64 - 08/01/07 at 21:52:49
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I wonder why you didn't change Ng3 (sic) to Nf3 in your latest post. Did you by the way put those two positions in the last post into your analysis engine?
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #63 - 08/01/07 at 20:43:02
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/01/07 at 18:36:56:
Regarding the practice of the Budapest:

Since 1996, the popularity of the Budapest has plummetted.  (Ok, it was never that popular to begin with.)  Since 1990, White has scored an impressive 60% when both players were rated over 2300 FIDE.  (40% White, 40% draws, 20% Black)

On White's Fourth Move (against 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.de5 Ng4):  White has played every possible e-push, including e5-e6!  His most popular response is 4.Nf3, with 4.Bf4 coming in second.

The line that Udav suggests is indeed fresh.

Looking just at the line he provided without suggesting any earlier improvements for White:


Quote:
After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+  6. Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 how do you like the idea not to castle short,but to play an agressive 0-0-0 for an attak on the KS. E.g. 9...d6 10.0-0  Bd7!? 
a 11.a3 Bxd2 12. Qxd2 0-0-0
b 11.Ng3 (sic) 0-0-0


I don't like 11.a3 as it seems a waste of time here.

11.Ng3 is impossible. 

I prefer 11.Nf3 and if 0-0-0, Black is at least a pawn down after:  12.a3! (Now it has a point!) Nxf3+ (This has to be played sooner or later.  It will probably transpose to 12...Bc5 lines) 13.Bxf3 Bc5 14.b4 Bb6 15.a4 and White wins in overwhelming fashion.

Black's problem in this line is that he has targets on the Q-side that can be attacked instantly while Black's king-side attack is many moves away from being a threat.

Black can play better than to castle queenside immediately, but the B on b4 will still be a problem piece.  This is probably why the best players who have tried this defense castle kingside.


11.Nf3 is of course also possible Ng6 12.Bg3 0-0 Here White will have to play on the QS ,but if white will push too hard and will not prepare this attak properly,there is also the counterblow a5 with counterplay.There are also other ideas for black as playing on the KS and in the centre.
It is very interessting that I had seven times the position as black until move eleven and my oponents at the level of about 2100 Elo
had choose five times 11.a3 and two times 11. Ng3 ,so I didnt look at othe posiiblities.
But anyhow it would be interessting to see how games might develop after
a 11.a3 Bxd2 12. Qxd2 0-0-0
b 11.Ng3 (sic) 0-0-0

I have never played 0-0-0 here,because it seemed to me too dangerous,but a few weeks ago I analyzed a game with 11.a3 and analyzed a little bit 0-0-0 and it looks like black has really good chances for a successfull attak.But I am not sure,yet.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #62 - 08/01/07 at 20:19:20
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No,my trainer was a GM some time,but now he isnt a professional trainer anymore.He isnt really known and was rated 2500 at his best times.
Arkadij Naiditsch is just a friend and when I asked him some time about the Bpg,if it is really so bad,he just asked me,if I believe in this opening.I said yes.And he answered that than this opening is good for me.
It sounds a little bit strange,but in some way he is right.By the way my trainer was also not playing the Bpg ,because he is a player with a different style.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #61 - 08/01/07 at 18:44:10
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Btw: Udav has said that his trainer is a GM, and that his friend is Arkady Naiditsch. I may be wrong, but perhaps GM Naiditsch is your coach?  I'd really like to know why GM Naiditsch said he would play the Budapest as Black and yet has never, never played it in serious competition? 

GM Naiditsch started out playing Queen's Gambits Declined (notably D52) and later switched to Grunfelds, King's Indians, Nimzos and Queen's Indians.  But I have not seen a single game in which he played the Budapest.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #60 - 08/01/07 at 18:36:56
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Regarding the practice of the Budapest:

Since 1996, the popularity of the Budapest has plummetted.  (Ok, it was never that popular to begin with.)  Since 1990, White has scored an impressive 60% when both players were rated over 2300 FIDE.  (40% White, 40% draws, 20% Black)

On White's Fourth Move (against 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.de5 Ng4):  White has played every possible e-push, including e5-e6!  His most popular response is 4.Nf3, with 4.Bf4 coming in second.

The line that Udav suggests is indeed fresh.

Looking just at the line he provided without suggesting any earlier improvements for White:


Quote:
After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+  6. Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 how do you like the idea not to castle short,but to play an agressive 0-0-0 for an attak on the KS. E.g. 9...d6 10.0-0  Bd7!? 
a 11.a3 Bxd2 12. Qxd2 0-0-0
b 11.Ng3 (sic) 0-0-0


I don't like 11.a3 as it seems a waste of time here.

11.Ng3 is impossible. 

I prefer 11.Nf3 and if 0-0-0, Black is at least a pawn down after:  12.a3! (Now it has a point!) Nxf3+ (This has to be played sooner or later.  It will probably transpose to 12...Bc5 lines) 13.Bxf3 Bc5 14.b4 Bb6 15.a4 and White wins in overwhelming fashion.

Black's problem in this line is that he has targets on the Q-side that can be attacked instantly while Black's king-side attack is many moves away from being a threat.

Black can play better than to castle queenside immediately, but the B on b4 will still be a problem piece.  This is probably why the best players who have tried this defense castle kingside.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #59 - 08/01/07 at 16:57:27
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Here are some new and fresh ideas.
After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+  6. Nd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 how do you like the idea not to castle short,but to play an agressive 0-0-0 for an attak on the KS. E.g. 9...d6 10.0-0  Bd7!?
a 11.a3 Bxd2 12. Qxd2 0-0-0
b 11.Ng3 0-0-0
That seem to be interessting and dignified to be analyzed.
I am not sure,but I think I have seen this idea in a game,but I cant remember where , when and by whom^^
So here is the invitation to analyze this a bit.
I will be away for a while maybe someone of you will find a new main line for black in this variation with 0-0-0.
Good Luck Cool
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #58 - 08/01/07 at 14:10:24
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Indeed you are totaly right!But I play it for a long time and analyze many positions without computers.
Of course the positions which appear for black are just a matter of taste.I play the Queensgambit and the Queensindian as well against d4+c4 and I find all of this openings attractive in their special way.What I like abot the Bpg is,that there are often interessting positions on both sides.White tries often to keep the slight advantage by playing random strategies and black tries to find different ways to play against them.This is the interessting about the Bpg.
I must say that I am a kind of player,who likes to defend positions .( really strange ,I know:D)
Is here anybody,who is playing the Buderpestgambit as black and is satisfied with this opening?
Because it seems to me that I am the only one here,who believes in this opening Cry
Apropos to believe,a good friend of mine Arkadij Naiditsch said to me that to be successfull in an opening you need really to belive in it Wink.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #57 - 08/01/07 at 12:11:07
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Computer evaluations are all very well, but ultimately, unless you have Toilet Fritz, you have to play the resultant positions. And therein lies the rub, despite whatever your computer tells you. In most of the main lines, White's play is so much easier than Black's, and this is something your computer won't tell you, since it has no conception of ease or difficulty. However, for practical pay, this is a huge consideration.
So, switch off your computer for a bit, and have a look at the positions, and ask yourself, am I happy to play these lines? Does my position have scope? Is there margin for error? Am I granting my opponent a risk-free edge? Not, oh this is +0.27...that's just spectacularly useless.

  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #56 - 08/01/07 at 09:47:29
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Ptero wrote on 08/01/07 at 06:24:12:
Quote:
Of course white should play 7.e3 and not 7.a3?!

Udav18 wrote on 07/31/07 at 11:22:04:
by the way 7.a3 has not only the intention to attak blacks bishop,but it also follows the general plan to push the c pawn.


Perhaps I should explain myself a little more - its flexibility:
White need to play e3, Be2, 0-0 in any case, and doing so doesn't reveal any of his intentions to black. Moreover, by playing this natural sequel he is also letting black make an unpleasant decision about his b4 bishop - either he takes the knight on d2 unprovoked, or he lets the bishop to be chased around after white unpins the knight. White is under no obligation to play an early a3 or b4 though. In case black captures on d2 the white queen will already support b4 after she recaptures the bishop. Sometimes white may be able to throw a quick c5 in, without having played a3 or b4 at all. So 7.a3 may well turn out to be redundant.
Having said all that, white is probably still a tad better after 7.a3 


I agree.
As black it is easier to play against 7.a3
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #55 - 08/01/07 at 09:45:28
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/31/07 at 21:45:39:
Udav18 wrote on 07/31/07 at 17:28:58:
It would convince me,if you show me a clear line ,where white is much better,which cant be refuted.
Also the "main line" if you can call it like this ,has some mistakes,which I have showed some time ago.

I am not someone,who say that black is better or something stupid like this,but i only want to say that the Bpg is a solid opening ,where white has a slight advantage(if white stay alive until the middlegame),which is the case in every opening. But it is really a pity that many players believe ,that the Bdpg is a bad opening only because many Bdpg-players just play it without the knowledge you need in such an opening , lose and make a bad score with black.
To look at a databse is of course helpful ,if you start a new opening,but not to question the results and moves,which were made and just believe that the opening is bad,because white has won often is primitive and not really what the chessworld needs.
The Bpg isnt explored well enough and it is to early to say that it is a bad opening for black. THE END Grin

(All bold emphases are mine~ S-F)

(Bpg doesn't work very well in English, although I know Udav created it to compare to the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit, "BDG")
I have two main points of disagreement with Udav here.  I will start with the one he mentions last.

  • Udav claims that the Budapest Gambit is not well explored.


There have been books written about the Budapest in several languages, world champions from Alekhine to Kasparov have analyzed it, and it's been played for about 80 years in a variety of tournaments.  This opening has been analyzed to death.  Literally.  The opening has been examined and found wanting by the best players of this era.



This brings us to Udav's first point: 


  • He wants to claim that White has at best only a minimal advantage.  This claim is reasonable, but has been refuted.  White has more than a minimal advantage in almost every major line. 


Udav has claimed that 4.Nf3 is only equal for White in another thread, and yet has provided us with no "concrete line" to show this.

I don't think Udav is interested in being convinced that the Budapest is not really playable at the highest levels.  Rather, Udav is interested in convincing us that the Budapest belongs with the main openings that are being played today.  The Budapest may have a temporary resurgence, but it just is not rich enough to compete with Black's main choices.

Remember, the Budapest is competing with lines that deviate as early as the second move!  The burden of proof that 2...e5 is as playable as 2...e6 is on Udav.

Smyslov_Fan I think your contributions to this topic are only designed to attak someone.If you just have a closer look at your contributions you might maybe understand,that they dont belong to this topic,because we discuss here lines ,moves and positions and not why the Bpg is bad.
And to convince somebody is really not my intention.Everyone has his own brain to think.If I find out something new with the help of engines rated 2900-3100 Elo I just show the results here.Here are many players who convince with their ideas not only me in some positions,but also the engines.Maybe you can learn something from them.
Also you talk about your opinion as if this is the opinion of all the members here Grin

"
  • Udav claims that the Budapest Gambit is not well explored.


There have been books written about the Budapest in several languages, world champions from Alekhine to Kasparov have analyzed it, and it's been played for about 80 years in a variety of tournaments.  This opening has been analyzed to death. "


Grin Aha ,ok I think we can stop plaing chess,because all the openings have been analyzed a lot and white is slight better in many of the openings.Maybe black has just to resign? Grin
Sorry ,Smyslov_Fan, I really dont want to have trouble with you,but your preference to attak me allways,when you hear something like the Bpg is not bad is annoying.Just try to analyze as the other members to convince someone and attak variations and not the players!

  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #54 - 08/01/07 at 06:24:12
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Quote:
Of course white should play 7.e3 and not 7.a3?!

Udav18 wrote on 07/31/07 at 11:22:04:
by the way 7.a3 has not only the intention to attak blacks bishop,but it also follows the general plan to push the c pawn.


Perhaps I should explain myself a little more - its flexibility:
White need to play e3, Be2, 0-0 in any case, and doing so doesn't reveal any of his intentions to black. Moreover, by playing this natural sequel he is also letting black make an unpleasant decision about his b4 bishop - either he takes the knight on d2 unprovoked, or he lets the bishop to be chased around after white unpins the knight. White is under no obligation to play an early a3 or b4 though. In case black captures on d2 the white queen will already support b4 after she recaptures the bishop. Sometimes white may be able to throw a quick c5 in, without having played a3 or b4 at all. So 7.a3 may well turn out to be redundant.
Having said all that, white is probably still a tad better after 7.a3 
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #53 - 08/01/07 at 02:42:24
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Udav18 wrote on 07/31/07 at 11:03:54:
Indeed Qe3 seems to be slight better.I have analyzed it a bit and white has more chances in this position,but it is really hard for white to keep his advantage.It is similar to the variation with Qd2.There white is also slight better,but black has enough compensation.
By the way Be6 instead of Qf6?! seems to be better.E.g. 14...Be6 15. Nd4! Qd7!! 16. Nxe6 Nxe6 += .
White has more space and the pair of bishops(it is not possible to keep this pair) .
Black has the better pawn-sturcture and two dangerous half-open-files on the Kingside.
I would say that white has more chances on the Queenside as black on the Kingside,but black has not only the chance to counter on the KS,but also the plan to play for an Endgame with the better pawn-structure.


You are contradicting yourself. Having enough compensation for the pawn means equality, White being somewhat better means not entirely enough. In any case, when claiming compensation, one must concretely explain, where that compensation comes from. Nothing is as superficial as "with an attack for the invested material."

Anyhow, 14...Be6 15.Nd4 Qd7 (please, why do these move deserve exclamation marks?) 16.Nxe6 Nxe6 17.Qd2 (what is the idea, Willempie?) Nxf4 18.gxf4 Qg4 does offer something concrete: the White's king's position is a bit airy. I can see Black transferring his rooks to the kingside. If the knight also gets involved (but that is quite troublesome due to Bg2), White faces severe difficulties. A sample line is 19.e3 Rae8 20.Rab1 Nd8 21.Kh1 b6 22.Rg1 Qh4. I would say, that the burden of proof is on White, to defend at one hand and converting the extra pawn at the other hand.
But this cannot be the last word, never when playing a gambit. It obliges us, to find improvements for the defender. Always keep two points in mind: the defender can stubbornly hang on to the extra pawn, but also return it to obtain some positional advantages. In this particular variation it is important to find out, if White can return the c4-pawn, but keep and activate the pair of bishops.

  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #52 - 07/31/07 at 21:45:39
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Udav18 wrote on 07/31/07 at 17:28:58:
It would convince me,if you show me a clear line ,where white is much better,which cant be refuted.
Also the "main line" if you can call it like this ,has some mistakes,which I have showed some time ago.

I am not someone,who say that black is better or something stupid like this,but i only want to say that the Bpg is a solid opening ,where white has a slight advantage(if white stay alive until the middlegame),which is the case in every opening. But it is really a pity that many players believe ,that the Bdpg is a bad opening only because many Bdpg-players just play it without the knowledge you need in such an opening , lose and make a bad score with black.
To look at a databse is of course helpful ,if you start a new opening,but not to question the results and moves,which were made and just believe that the opening is bad,because white has won often is primitive and not really what the chessworld needs.
The Bpg isnt explored well enough and it is to early to say that it is a bad opening for black. THE END Grin

(All bold emphases are mine~ S-F)

(Bpg doesn't work very well in English, although I know Udav created it to compare to the Blackmar-Diemar Gambit, "BDG")
I have two main points of disagreement with Udav here.  I will start with the one he mentions last.

  • Udav claims that the Budapest Gambit is not well explored.


There have been books written about the Budapest in several languages, world champions from Alekhine to Kasparov have analyzed it, and it's been played for about 80 years in a variety of tournaments.  This opening has been analyzed to death.  Literally.  The opening has been examined and found wanting by the best players of this era.



This brings us to Udav's first point:  


  • He wants to claim that White has at best only a minimal advantage.  This claim is reasonable, but has been refuted.  White has more than a minimal advantage in almost every major line.  


Udav has claimed that 4.Nf3 is only equal for White in another thread, and yet has provided us with no "concrete line" to show this.

I don't think Udav is interested in being convinced that the Budapest is not really playable at the highest levels.  Rather, Udav is interested in convincing us that the Budapest belongs with the main openings that are being played today.  The Budapest may have a temporary resurgence, but it just is not rich enough to compete with Black's main choices.

Remember, the Budapest is competing with lines that deviate as early as the second move!  The burden of proof that 2...e5 is as playable as 2...e6 is on Udav.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #51 - 07/31/07 at 17:28:58
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It would convince me,if you show me a clear line ,where white is much better,which cant be refuted.
Also the "main line" if you can call it like this ,has some mistakes,which I have showed some time ago.
I am not someone,who say that black is better or something stupid like this,but i only want to say that the Bpg is a solid opening ,where white has a slight advantage(if white stay alive until the middlegame),which is the case in every opening.
But it is really a pity that many players believe ,that the Bdpg is a bad opening only because many Bdpg-players just play it without the knowledge you need in such an opening , lose and make a bad score with black.
To look at a databse is of course helpful ,if you start a new opening,but not to question the results and moves,which were made and just believe that the opening is bad,because white has won often is primitive and not really what the chessworld needs.
The Bpg isnt explored well enough and it is to early to say that it is a bad opening for black.

THE END Grin

  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #50 - 07/31/07 at 15:52:44
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Udav18 wrote on 07/31/07 at 15:30:17:
right,but black has also a lot of chances,so it is not really possible to say that white is just better.Well the engine might show +=,but it is really not enough to convince someone , even our trainer,who is an GM would play this position as black .


What would convince you then? In the databases white has a large plus score in  the main line.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #49 - 07/31/07 at 15:30:17
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right,but black has also a lot of chances,so it is not really possible to say that white is just better.Well the engine might show +=,but it is really not enough to convince someone , even our trainer,who is an GM would play this position as black .
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #48 - 07/31/07 at 12:28:57
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Udav18 wrote on 07/31/07 at 11:03:54:
Indeed Qe3 seems to be slight better.I have analyzed it a bit and white has more chances in this position,but it is really hard for white to keep his advantage.It is similar to the variation with Qd2.There white is also slight better,but black has enough compensation.
By the way Be6 instead of Qf6?! seems to be better.E.g. 14...Be6 15. Nd4! Qd7!! 16. Nxe6 Nxe6 += .
White has more space and the pair of bishops(it is not possible to keep this pair) .
Black has the better pawn-sturcture and two dangerous half-open-files on the Kingside.
I would say that white has more chances on the Queenside as black on the Kingside,but black has not only the chance to counter on the KS,but also the plan to play for an Endgame with the better pawn-structure.
I dont understand what intent your game has for the new variations?
Your game showes the early move Bxc3?!,which is not the best move as we know now.

I dont have much time to look at it, but something like 17.Qd2 Nxf4 18.gxf4 looks decent enough for me to white. It's not like white is in any real danger and he is still a pawn up.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #47 - 07/31/07 at 11:22:04
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Petro"Of course white should play 7.e3 and not 7.a3?! throwing a full tempo on the misplaced bishop on b4. Frankly I don't really see what atracts players to the black side of this position, but would surely love to be enlightened on that. I find Cox's suggestions in his d4 book convincing enough but maybe there are some new ideas for black."
As I said before black has a lot of ideas to fight for a win.
Just look at the database and look how often black could win with different ideas.Of course white has also a lot of wins,but that is the case with all the openings!
by the way 7.a3 has not only the intention to attak blacks bishop,but it also follows the general plan to push the c pawn.
To  do this ,white has often to play a3+b4+c5.
7.e3 is also a good move with other ideas as Nb3 and then a3 not to play for the plan with c5 ,but to play for centralisation and make some weaknesses on the queenside  (forcing black to make  dubble-pawn  by exchanging this bishop.)
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #46 - 07/31/07 at 11:03:54
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Indeed Qe3 seems to be slight better.I have analyzed it a bit and white has more chances in this position,but it is really hard for white to keep his advantage.It is similar to the variation with Qd2.There white is also slight better,but black has enough compensation.
By the way Be6 instead of Qf6?! seems to be better.E.g. 14...Be6 15. Nd4! Qd7!! 16. Nxe6 Nxe6 += .
White has more space and the pair of bishops(it is not possible to keep this pair) .
Black has the better pawn-sturcture and two dangerous half-open-files on the Kingside.
I would say that white has more chances on the Queenside as black on the Kingside,but black has not only the chance to counter on the KS,but also the plan to play for an Endgame with the better pawn-structure.
I dont understand what intent your game has for the new variations?
Your game showes the early move Bxc3?!,which is not the best move as we know now.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #45 - 07/31/07 at 10:33:23
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Udav18 wrote on 07/31/07 at 08:58:22:
So I am really proud of the fresh very new lines,which show that the Bdpg is a solid opening.Now I want to have a look at the line with Nd2 instead of Nc3 after Bb4+.
This line has the repetiton that white gets a slight and solid advantage.
What I know now are just a few games with this line,which show some ideas for black.
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+  6. Nd2 Qe7 7. a3 (there are moves like 7.e3 ,too)
Nxe5(It doesnt really matter what night will capture on e5) 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9. e3 Bxd2 10. Qxd2 d6 11. Be2
and now there are two different and interessting plans.
-attaking on the Kingside without castling
-castle +b6+Bb7 and try to find some ways to compensate the strong plan by white to push the c-pawn and create weaknesses

Before I will show the games with this ideas,I want to know,wether there are also some other ideas for black.


Of course white should play 7.e3 and not 7.a3?! throwing a full tempo on the misplaced bishop on b4. Frankly I don't really see what atracts players to the black side of this position, but would surely love to be enlightened on that. I find Cox's suggestions in his d4 book convincing enough but maybe there are some new ideas for black.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #44 - 07/31/07 at 09:16:15
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Udav18 wrote on 07/11/07 at 17:13:42:
Hi,here some fair news for all Budapest players.
I just couldnt accept,that white has an advantage in the line Bf4 Bb4+ and  Nc3+Qd5
I surched and surched and couldnt give up and actually I fount some truths,which may cheer you!
Ok so here a few of the lines,where I thought that white is much better.
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3 Qe7 7.Qd5 f6 8.exf Nxf 9. Qd3 0-0 10. g3 Ne4(!) 11. Bg2 d6 12. 0-0
So here I didnt want to give up the pair of bishops and only surched for Nxc3 bxc and Bf5.When I found the move e4!! it was a shock to me.White has here a strong pressure ,because after Bxe,there are to many lines open ,which only white can use.
But I found that after 12...Bxc3 (!) 13.bxc  Nc5 14.Qd2 Na5! 15.Qd4 Be6 16. Nd2! Rae8 Black stands ok!!He has now the plan to attak the c-pawn with Qf7 and it is really hard for white to keep his slite advantage!!

I think 14.Qe3 is stronger (14..Qf6 15.Nd4). Eg (by transposition)
[Date "1990.04.??"]
[White "Seirawan,Yasser"]
[Black "Wessman,Richard"]
[Result "1-0"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3 Qe7 7.Qd5 f6 8.exf6 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 Nxf6 10.Qd3 d6 11.g3 0-0 12.Bg2 Ne4 13.0-0 Nc5 14.Qe3 Be6 15.Nd4 Bxc4 16.Nxc6 Qxe3 17.Bxe3 bxc6 18.Bxc6 Rab8 19.Rfb1 Bxe2 20.Bd5+ Kh8 21.Bxc5 dxc5 22.Rxb8 Rxb8 23.Re1 Bg4 24.f3 Bd7 25.Re7 Rd8 26.Kf2 g6 27.Bc4 Bf5 28.Ke3 Rd7 29.Rxd7 Bxd7 30.Ke4 Bc6+ 31.Bd5 Bd7 32.Ke5 Kg7 33.a3 Be8 34.f4 Bd7 35.Be6 Bc6 36.g4 Bf3 37.f5 g5 38.f6+ Kg6 39.Bd7 Kh6 40.Ke6 Bxg4+ 41.Ke7 Bh5 42.h3  1-0

  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #43 - 07/31/07 at 08:58:22
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So I am really proud of the fresh very new lines,which show that the Bdpg is a solid opening.Now I want to have a look at the line with Nd2 instead of Nc3 after Bb4+.
This line has the repetiton that white gets a slight and solid advantage.
What I know now are just a few games with this line,which show some ideas for black.
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+  6. Nd2 Qe7 7. a3 (there are moves like 7.e3 ,too)
Nxe5(It doesnt really matter what night will capture on e5) 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9. e3 Bxd2 10. Qxd2 d6 11. Be2
and now there are two different and interessting plans.
-attaking on the Kingside without castling
-castle +b6+Bb7 and try to find some ways to compensate the strong plan by white to push the c-pawn and create weaknesses

Before I will show the games with this ideas,I want to know,wether there are also some other ideas for black.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #42 - 07/11/07 at 17:13:42
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Hi,here some fair news for all Budapest players.
I just couldnt accept,that white has an advantage in the line Bf4 Bb4+ and  Nc3+Qd5
I surched and surched and couldnt give up and actually I fount some truths,which may cheer you!
Ok so here a few of the lines,where I thought that white is much better.
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3 Qe7 7.Qd5 f6 8.exf Nxf 9. Qd3 0-0 10. g3 Ne4(!) 11. Bg2 d6 12. 0-0
So here I didnt want to give up the pair of bishops and only surched for Nxc3 bxc and Bf5.When I found the move e4!! it was a shock to me.White has here a strong pressure ,because after Bxe,there are to many lines open ,which only white can use.
But I found that after 12...Bxc3 (!) 13.bxc  Nc5 14.Qd2 Na5! 15.Qd4 Be6 16. Nd2! Rae8 Black stands ok!!He has now the plan to attak the c-pawn with Qf7 and it is really hard for white to keep his slite advantage!!
The other line with 10. e3 gives black very good attaking chances and black has even the advantage!
10...d6 11.Be2 Ne4 12.0-0 Bxc 13.bxc Bf5 14.Qd5+ Kh8! (this natural move has the intention to start a really strong attak!)
15.Rac1 g5! 16. Bg3 h5! 17.Nd4 Bg6 =+

  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #41 - 07/07/07 at 17:07:33
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I am really sorry,I tried to improve a line,without taking on c3 and I was close to fine a variation ,where black can equalize,but after
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3 Qe7 7.Qd5 f6 8.exf Nxf 9. Qd3 0-0 10. g3 Ne4 11. Bg2 d6 12. 0-0 Nxc3 13. bxc Bf5 there is the very strong move e4!!,which was found after a few minutes by Rybka.
The idea is to give up a pawn,but than black will have to many problems,because now not only the king is weakend but also the diagonal h1-a8 and the e-file is open.White is well developed and in such an open position black has no chance to equalize Cry
I have never played g5!? after Bf4.Is here anybody who play it?
Maybe g5 is at least ok for black.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #40 - 07/07/07 at 09:52:17
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Well,maybe i was a little bit to overhasty  to say that black has to take on c3 in the line with Bf4 and than whit has an advantage.
I had a look at a few variations without Bxc3,where Rybka2.3.2 showes that white has an advantage and it seems that Rybka makes allways a few mistakes in the calculation and when I played this variations  Rybka could found a few improvements for black.I will look today at the variation. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3 Qe7 7.Qd5 f6 8.exf Nxf 9. Qd3 0-0 10. g3 Ne4(!) 11. Bg2 d6 12. 0-0 Nxc3(!) 13. bxc Bf5! 

It seems that black can equalize now.
But I will need a closer look at this position not to be mistaken.
If anybody has time to analyze this position,please do it!That might reanimate the BpG !
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #39 - 07/07/07 at 08:59:22
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OK now lets continue our discussion of the BpG here.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #38 - 07/06/07 at 23:52:51
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I just thought I'd revive this thread since there's currently a discussion on these ideas going on in another part of the forum.

Cheers!

  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #37 - 10/15/06 at 03:15:12
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Check out the game below for one approach.  Of course, White made mistakes, but the plan by Black seems quite reasonable.  Unless White can play b4 (and certainly 14.b4 is on the table -- it may even be the best move) his queenside play is basically shut down once he forgoes c5.

Just look over some games, both in this particular position and others (there aren't too many Budapest games played at a high level) to get a feel for the middlegame maneuvering.  Most reasonable-looking moves lead to reasonable positions here, so a lot of the play depends on personal preference.  It is perfectly possible for forego kingside play as well; Bb6/d6 fit together well, as do b6/Bb7...

Mikhalevski,V (2525) - Chabanon,J (2445) [A52]
Bad Endbach Bad Endbach, 1995

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 0-0 10.0-0 a5 11.Nb3 a4 12.a3 Bd6 13.Nd4 Bc5 14.Nb5 d6 15.Nc3 Ng6 16.Bg3 f5 17.Bf3 Qe8 18.Qc2 Ne5 19.Be2 Be6 20.Nb5 Qf7 21.Bxe5 dxe5 22.Qc3 Rae8 23.Qxe5 Bxc4 24.Qxc5 Bxe2 25.Rfe1 b6 26.Qc6 Re6 27.Qd5 c6 28.Nd6 Qg6 29.Qxf5 Rxf5 30.Nxf5 Qxf5 31.Rxe2 Qd3 32.Rae1 c5 33.e4 b5 34.e5 g5 35.Re3 Qd4 36.R3e2 b4 37.axb4 cxb4 38.h3 b3 39.Kf1 Kg7 40.Kg1 Kg6 41.g4 h5 42.gxh5+ Kxh5 43.Kh2 Kg6 44.Kg2 Kf5 45.Kg3 a3 46.bxa3 b2 47.Rb1 Qd3+ 0-1
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #36 - 10/14/06 at 23:30:31
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Hello,

a new Try Smiley
after 10...a5 i want to try out 11.Nb3-a4 12.a3-Bd6 13.Nd4-Bc5 14.Nb5-d6 15.Nc3-Bd7 16.Nd5-Qd8 17.Qc2 - so far more or less forced
But how to find a Plan for Black? White can double rooks on D-File to prevent c7-c6. Can u give me any Ideas?

regards
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #35 - 10/14/06 at 06:05:25
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1159148601/30#34 date=1160769725]Dear Scholar,

  Very nice variation you thought up there. Perhaps Black is even slightly better due to his control of the d-file. I must say though that the manoeuvre 16. Qe1/17. Qd1 creates a very odd impression.
Perhaps Black also has earlier deviations, such as delaying 7. ...Ktgxe5 and castling first.

                            Regards,
                               Hubert[/quote]
Thanks.

What is the idea behind delaying Ngxe5 with 7...0-0?  It seems like Black can't avoid transposing to the usual lines after 8.Be2 and 8.a3 gives White an improved version of the delayed a3 lines -- Black usually plays d6 before castling to prevent a quick c5, a resource which is denied him in this move order.

To my eyes, the only deviations from the Black side of this line that seem possible are at move 6 and move 10 (or later).
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #34 - 10/13/06 at 20:02:05
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Dear Scholar,

 Very nice variation you thought up there. Perhaps Black is even slightly better due to his control of the d-file. I must say though that the manoeuvre 16. Qe1/17. Qd1 creates a very odd impression.
Perhaps Black also has earlier deviations, such as delaying 7. ...Ktgxe5 and castling first.

                            Regards,
                               Hubert
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #33 - 10/12/06 at 11:11:24
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Hello,

thx for that interesting line with 17..d6 !?!? I didnt calculate this move at all. To give back Material is always out of my mind Smiley
I agree, that Black can equalize the Game. White can only hope for an advantage with the bishoppair, but i dont believe Sad

So i have to intensify the Line after 12...Bd6. I will tell u soon.... Smiley

Regards
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #32 - 10/12/06 at 05:17:05
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Quote:
Hello,

after 10...a5 follows 11.Nb3-a4 12.a3-Bd6 13. c5(!)-Bxc5 14.Nxc5-Qxc5 15.Rc1-Qa5 16.Qe1-c6 and now 17.Qd1 causes Black Headache with the black Squares. And what to do with the Bc8 ?!

Regards


To be honest I do not know this line very deeply, though I had considered 17.Qxa5 to be the main line (I guess there are a few games with it) with 17...Rax5 18.Rad1 Re8 looking fine for Black without any more analysis.

I suspect that you are right to try and keep the queens on, but it's not so easy for White after 17.Qd1.  If Black is so concerned with the Bc8 he can play simple chess 17...d6 18.Qxd6 (otherwise Black has no problems) Ng6 and now there is some branching, but Black will take on f4 is offered, and otherwise play a quick Be6-b3 followed by Rfd8.  This seems perfectly satisfactory to me for Black, since White can't even control the d-file.

Play might continue 19.Bg3 keeping the bishop pair seems like the best try for an edge Be6 avoids complications 20.Rfd1 Bb3 21.Rd3 Rfd8 and after the resulting simplifications, it's hard to think that Black has any problems with the endgame.

Of course 17...d6 is just one choice, and 17...Re8 may be OK as well, intending f6 and if possible b6/Ba6, otherwise d5.  The point is that Black is up a pawn here, and so he has some flexibility in breaking the bind.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #31 - 10/12/06 at 01:29:06
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Hello,

after 10...a5 follows 11.Nb3-a4 12.a3-Bd6 13. c5(!?)-Bxc5 14.Nxc5-Qxc5 15.Rc1-Qa5 16.Qe1-c6 and now 17.Qd1 causes Black Headache with the black Squares. And what to do with the Bc8 ?!

Regards
« Last Edit: 10/12/06 at 11:05:50 by Der Stratege »  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #30 - 10/11/06 at 04:44:10
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Quote:
Hello,

I really dont know what the Problem for White. All Lines are at least +=, take a look:
1.d4-Nf6 2.c4-e5 3.dxe5-Ng4 4.Lf4(!) - Nc6 5.Nf3-Bb4+ 6. Nbd2-Qe7 7. e3(!) - Ngxe5 8. Nxe5-Nxe5
9. Be2-00 10. 00 - Bxd2 11.Qxd2-d6 12. b4 and only White is fine...


Setting aside the possibility of 6...f6 (hardly a safe += for White), as mentioned above Black is under no obligation to play 10...Bxd2 and instead I think 10...a5 is better.  Either 11.a3 is the result (and it's not to see the interposition of a3 and a5 as an improvement for Black) or White plays 11.Nb3 a4 12.a3 Bd6 which seems to give Black good play.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #29 - 10/11/06 at 00:38:57
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Hello,

I really dont know what the Problem for White. All Lines are at least +=, take a look:
1.d4-Nf6 2.c4-e5 3.dxe5-Ng4 4.Lf4(!) - Nc6 5.Nf3-Bb4+ 6. Nbd2-Qe7 7. e3(!) - Ngxe5 8. Nxe5-Nxe5
9. Be2-00 10. 00 - Bxd2 11.Qxd2-d6 12. b4 and only White is fine...

On 4....g5(?!) simply follows 5.Bd2 with the Idee Bc3 and g5 becomes just a weakness
On 5...f6 follows 6.exf6 -Qxf6 7. Qd2 ! +=

The Fajarowicz-Line after 3...Ne4 looks interesting at first look, but then it seems to be not satisfactionable.
4.Nf3-Bb4+ 5.Bd2-Nxd2 6.Nxd2-Nc6 7.a3-Bxd2 8.Dxd2-Qe7 9.Qc3 looks fine for white. If Black castles long,
then there is easy continuation for White 9...b6 10.Rd1-Bb7 11.e3-000 12.Be2-Rhe8 13.Rd5-Na5 14.b4(!) +-

If Black castles short white plays on d7. 9...00 10.Rd1-Re8 11.Rd5-b6 12.g3-Bb7 13.Bh3-Tad8 14.00-Na5
15.Rd2-Nc6 16.Rfd1 looks awful for Black.

Any Questions?

Regards
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #28 - 09/30/06 at 13:48:10
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/28/06 at 00:11:53:
Scholar stated:

Quote:
Yes, there is no doubt that Tseitlin and Glaskov are often quite optimistic about Black's chances.  This is an interesting line that you mention, although after 6...Ngxe5 7.Nxe5 Nxe5 8.Bc3 Qe7 Black has his usual solid position.

Moreover, how does this stop Black from playing a5 and Ra6?  Black can just play 6...0-0 with the idea of Re8, N[c,g]xe5, a5, and Ra6.  Not that this is necessarily great, but it doesn't look impossible.



In the line I suggested, ...a5 and ...Ra6 aren't impossible.  In fact, it has been played a few times.  However, it lacks any real bite compared to the "normal" lines in which the Rook maneuver plays such an important role in Black's counter-attack.  I haven't faced it very often, but have scored 100% in serious games (ok, that may be two wins out of two games, but at least one was against a "Life Master" who has posted on Chess Publishing quite a bit).

Keep in mind that Ra6 isnt a goal in itself it is just a bonus of a5. That move is to stop the c5 break by holding up b4 (similar to the KID).
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #27 - 09/28/06 at 01:06:51
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@Uberdecker: I'm not sure Black has to take on d2 (I wouldn't).  I meant saving a tempo in the traditional sense: Black's bishop will have to move again no matter what White does, and lacks good squares, so why give him a tempo with which to trade it.  Of course, some prefer to spend a tempo to get the bishops; fine by me.

The 6...f6 gambit is rather speculative and tactical (so I know you don't like it) and has almost nothing in common with the 7...f6 gambit other than the fact that in both cases Black plays f6.  Like I said, I play it if I need to win.

@Smyslov_Fan: Fair enough.  I usually don't go in for Ra6-kingside, so I'm not a good judge of when Black has much to go with.  I just noticed a few games of relatively high class where Black had success with a5-Ra6-h6 even in this line.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #26 - 09/28/06 at 00:11:53
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Scholar stated:

Quote:
Yes, there is no doubt that Tseitlin and Glaskov are often quite optimistic about Black's chances.  This is an interesting line that you mention, although after 6...Ngxe5 7.Nxe5 Nxe5 8.Bc3 Qe7 Black has his usual solid position.

Moreover, how does this stop Black from playing a5 and Ra6?  Black can just play 6...0-0 with the idea of Re8, N[c,g]xe5, a5, and Ra6.  Not that this is necessarily great, but it doesn't look impossible.



In the line I suggested, ...a5 and ...Ra6 aren't impossible.  In fact, it has been played a few times.  However, it lacks any real bite compared to the "normal" lines in which the Rook maneuver plays such an important role in Black's counter-attack.  I haven't faced it very often, but have scored 100% in serious games (ok, that may be two wins out of two games, but at least one was against a "Life Master" who has posted on Chess Publishing quite a bit).
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #25 - 09/27/06 at 16:25:25
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Why?
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #24 - 09/27/06 at 16:12:19
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1159148601/15#23 date=1159343352] A modest, but clear edge, yes. I believe that is the best one can expect against the Budapest. Why a quick draw? More like a 120-move draw...
How does 7. e3 save a tempo? It's true that after 7. ...Ktcxe5, White is no longer compelled to exchange on -e5 and can play 8. Be2 instead (the advantages of which are far from clear to me), but Black can then preserve his dark-squared Bishop. He can even do this straight away with 7. ...a5.
I'm rather suspicious of the gambit 6. ...f6. Doesn't compare well with the line
6. Ktc3 Qe7 ; 7. Qd5 f6. Very speculative, if you ask me.[/quote]
The e3 move saves a tempo as black needs to exchange the bishop anyway.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #23 - 09/27/06 at 07:49:12
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A modest, but clear edge, yes. I believe that is the best one can expect against the Budapest. Why a quick draw? More like a 120-move draw...
How does 7. e3 save a tempo? It's true that after 7. ...Ktcxe5, White is no longer compelled to exchange on -e5 and can play 8. Be2 instead (the advantages of which are far from clear to me), but Black can then preserve his dark-squared Bishop. He can even do this straight away with 7. ...a5.
I'm rather suspicious of the gambit 6. ...f6. Doesn't compare well with the line
6. Ktc3 Qe7 ; 7. Qd5 f6. Very speculative, if you ask me.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #22 - 09/27/06 at 04:25:24
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Uberdecker wrote on 09/25/06 at 08:14:52:
t's not my main defence to 1.d4, because White has certain lines that lead to a clear edge-which doesn't meen there's no lee-way to outplay your opponent-, but as a reserve weapon, it can serve you very well.


Uberdecker wrote on 09/26/06 at 13:43:06:
Sorry, got that all wrong, which is a bit embarrassing considering I play the line with both colours!
The correct sequence is 4. Bf4 Ktc6 ; 5. Ktf3 Bb4+ ; 6. Ktd2 Qe7 ; 7. a3 Ktcxe5 (or 7. ...Ktgxe5, no difference) 8. Ktxe5 Ktxe5 ; 9. e3


I'm curious if this is the line which you think leads to a clear edge for White (it seems like a quick draw is more likely).  I always thought that 7.e3 was more dangerous, effectively saving a tempo for White.  Against this general plan, I found that Black's position, though reliable, was hard to win with -- I prefer 6...f6 to 6...Qe7 if I need the full point.  (Yes, Rubinstein-Tartakower is a nice win for White, but Black can improve...)
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #21 - 09/27/06 at 04:15:07
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/27/06 at 03:32:03:
The main problem with the Budapest is that White has so very many paths to gaining an edge.  Tseitlin's book on the Budapest was overly optimistic, and it doesn't cover one of my favorite lines:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.de5 Ng4 4.Nf3 Bc5 5.e3 Nc6 6.Bd2!? with the idea of a quick Bc3 as IM Berkovich played way back in 1992 and Ftacnik played as early as 1986, or Taimanov in 1967!

I've found that this move thwarts most of the standard attacks associated with ...a5 and ...Ra6.  Both sides play chess instead of test each other's memories, and the resulting positions are both interesting and fairly good for White.


Yes, there is no doubt that Tseitlin and Glaskov are often quite optimistic about Black's chances.  This is an interesting line that you mention, although after 6...Ngxe5 7.Nxe5 Nxe5 8.Bc3 Qe7 Black has his usual solid position.

Moreover, how does this stop Black from playing a5 and Ra6?  Black can just play 6...0-0 with the idea of Re8, N[c,g]xe5, a5, and Ra6.  Not that this is necessarily great, but it doesn't look impossible.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #20 - 09/27/06 at 03:32:03
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The main problem with the Budapest is that White has so very many paths to gaining an edge.  Tseitlin's book on the Budapest was overly optimistic, and it doesn't cover one of my favorite lines:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.de5 Ng4 4.Nf3 Bc5 5.e3 Nc6 6.Bd2!? with the idea of a quick Bc3 as IM Berkovich played way back in 1992 and Ftacnik played as early as 1986, or Taimanov in 1967!

I've found that this move thwarts most of the standard attacks associated with ...a5 and ...Ra6.  Both sides play chess instead of test each other's memories, and the resulting positions are both interesting and fairly good for White.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #19 - 09/26/06 at 21:50:21
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[Event "?"]
[Site "Mexico"]
[Date "1979.??.??"]
[White "Nikolic,Predrag"]
[Black "Barbero,Gerardo"]
[Round "?"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A52"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. e3
Bc5 6. Nc3 Ncxe5 7. h3 Nxf3+ 8. Qxf3 Ne5 9. Qg3
Ng6 10. Bd2 Bd6 11. f4 Be7 12. O-O-O Bf6 13. Qf3
d6 14. Nd5 O-O 15. Bd3 Bd7 16. h4 Re8 17. h5
Nf8 18. g4 Bc6 19. g5 Be7 20. Bc3 Bxd5 21. Qxd5
c6 22. Qd4 Ne6 23. Bxh7+ Kxh7 24. Qe4+ Kg8 25. h6
Nxg5 26. hxg7 1-0

I have Borik's book which was mentioned earlier in the thread (found it a used book store for US $2.98!), and this is where I happened across this game.  Borik comments that 7.h3 forces Black into a capture that allows White's queen to announce her presence with authority, and he offers a tip: avoid capturing on f3 altogether, or only do so when White cannot recapture with the Queen.

I have not sussed out any games where ...Ncxe5 loses on the spot, but some quick database checks seem to indicate that ...Ngxe5 is overwhelmingly preffered.  (In fact, I can't find many games at all with ...Ncxe5.)  I suppose therein lies some of the psychological appeal.  Unless you are playing someone of Nikolic's stature, ...Ncxe5 may well be fine, and it may throw some White players off.  However, if you believe in the accumulation of small advantages -- it appears most feel that this particular small advantage is in White's favor.

I may try it out in some blitz games and see just to see how White reacts.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #18 - 09/26/06 at 16:09:49
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Care to share that game, or other examples of ...Ktcxe5 being inferior to ...Ktgxe5 ?
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #17 - 09/26/06 at 15:59:41
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[quote author=dsanchez link=1159148601/15#16 date=1159286162][quote author=Uberdeker link=1159148601/15#15 date=1159281596]
I prefer taking with the -c Knight in other variations as well, mainly for psychological reasons. It can tempt white into losing time with h3.[/quote]

That is interesting.  I suppose every advantage helps.  I don't have my books with me, but I seem to remember seeing a reference to Nikolic - Barbaro 1979 (?) as a cautionary tale about not taking with the Nc6 unless it is specifically indicated.

Of course, I'm new to all this, and that may be a special case.  Although it seems that 9 times out of 10 people recaputure ...Ngxe5.  Maybe they are not aware of your psychological finesse.

[/quote]
Yep that game is an excellent warning. Afaik taking with the wrong knight will never have any other benefits then psychology, so unless you are going to major in that field, I'd stick with the g4-knight capture ;)
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #16 - 09/26/06 at 15:56:02
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1159148601/15#15 date=1159281596]
I prefer taking with the -c Knight in other variations as well, mainly for psychological reasons. It can tempt white into losing time with h3.[/quote]

That is interesting.  I suppose every advantage helps.  I don't have my books with me, but I seem to remember seeing a reference to Nikolic - Barbaro 1979 (?) as a cautionary tale about not taking with the Nc6 unless it is specifically indicated.

Of course, I'm new to all this, and that may be a special case.  Although it seems that 9 times out of 10 people recaputure ...Ngxe5.  Maybe they are not aware of your psychological finesse.

  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #15 - 09/26/06 at 14:39:56
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Well, if White wants to avoid the doubling of his -f and -g pawns or loss of castling following 8. e3?! Ktxf3 ; 9. Qxf3 Bxd2+, he has to exchange on -e5 regardless of which Knight took the pawn.
I prefer taking with the -c Knight in other variations as well, mainly for psychological reasons. It can tempt white into losing time with h3.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #14 - 09/26/06 at 14:26:46
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1159148601/0#13 date=1159278186]Sorry, got that all wrong, which is a bit embarrassing considering I play the line with both colours!
The correct sequence is 4. Bf4 Ktc6 ; 5. Ktf3 Bb4+ ; 6. Ktd2 Qe7 ; 7. a3 Ktcxe5 (or 7. ...Ktgxe5, no difference) 8. e3 [/quote]
Yes I always have a problem with the move orders in typing from memory as well ;D
Iirc there is a difference though if white doesnt exchange knights on e5, forcing a knight exchange on f3.
Plus the golden rule in the Budapest is to capture with the g4-knight on e5 even if the other capture is good ;)
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #13 - 09/26/06 at 13:43:06
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Sorry, got that all wrong, which is a bit embarrassing considering I play the line with both colours!
The correct sequence is 4. Bf4 Ktc6 ; 5. Ktf3 Bb4+ ; 6. Ktd2 Qe7 ; 7. a3 Ktcxe5 (or 7. ...Ktgxe5, no difference) 8. Ktxe5 Ktxe5 ; 9. e3
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #12 - 09/26/06 at 10:37:11
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1159148601/0#11 date=1159211742] White has several lines against the Budapest which prevent Black from completely equalising, and the Kth3 variations favoured by Markovich may be among these, but Black always has good counterplay at his disposal.
The line that limits Black's activity the most, while at the same time maintaining a slight positional edge is 4. Bf4 Ktc6 ; 5. Ktf3 Bb4+ ; 6. Ktd2 Ktcxe5 ; 7. a3.
For one thing, there's no Q'sRookswing to the King-side here.[/quote]
That's a good line (I presume 7..Ngxe5 not Ncxe5), though personally I feel 7 e3 is even a bit better as you save a tempo (and you are not suddenly mated in blitz ;D) which can be used to get the f1 bishop out.

I still fail to see the benefits of Nh3 though. Sure you can get a knight to d5 and put a pawn on f4, but in the meantime black can clog up the e-file and if need be play c6 at some point.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #11 - 09/25/06 at 19:15:42
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White has several lines against the Budapest which prevent Black from completely equalising, and the Kth3 variations favoured by Markovich may be among these, but Black always has good counterplay at his disposal.
The line that limits Black's activity the most, while at the same time maintaining a slight positional edge is 4. Bf4 Ktc6 ; 5. Ktf3 Bb4+ ; 6. Ktd2 Ktcxe5 ; 7. a3.
For one thing, there's no Q'sRookswing to the King-side here.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #10 - 09/25/06 at 18:26:15
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Thanks for all the feedback.  Hopefully I will get a chance to play it this weekend.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #9 - 09/25/06 at 17:28:50
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Willempie wrote on 09/25/06 at 15:07:14:
What's the deal with e3 and Nh3? After something like  5...Ng6 6. g3 Bb4+ 7.Bd2 a5 (Bxd2) you are left with less than with any of the other lines.


I think the exchange of dark-squared bishops on d2 helps White in this line.  He recaptures with the queen, of course.  I'm not sure what Black's bishop is doing on b4 after  7...a5 8. Nc3.  I haven't seen that idea before.

But in general after 5...Ng6, besides the usual sort of thing with Nd5, White plans kingside expansion with f4.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #8 - 09/25/06 at 15:07:14
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What's the deal with e3 and Nh3? After something like  5...Ng6 6. g3 Bb4+ 7.Bd2 a5 (Bxd2) you are left with less than with any of the other lines.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #7 - 09/25/06 at 14:33:09
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1. d4 Nf6  2. c4 e5  3. dxe5 Ng4 (3...Ne4?!  4. a3!) 4. e3! Nxe5  5. Nh3! is my view of how White should play against the Budapest (this has nothing to do with protecting f2, by the way).  Probably 4. Bf4 also produces a slight advantage for White, but I think the system with Nh3-f4 is significantly more dynamic.  It results in fewer exchanges and it better emphasizes White's space advantage (that's right -- White enjoys a longterm space advantage because ...f5 is a difficult move for Black to play).  I started playing this some years ago, after a chessfriend of mine told me that he was using it take scalps and pointed me to a discussion of it in Shereshevsky's The Soviet Chess Conveyor (a really excellent book).  Against unsophisticated opposition, White often gets to ram his f-pawn all the way down to f6, after which further play is a mere formality. 

But even against 5...Ng6, White plays 6. g3, Bg2 0-0 and eventually f4-f5 while Black struggles to find counterplay.  There is no harm in the knight sitting on h3 for awhile. 

I don't claim that 4. e3, 5. Nh3 wins, but it is good.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #6 - 09/25/06 at 14:29:34
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I've always played the line
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nc3 Qe7 7. Qd5 Bxc3+ 8. bxc3 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qd3
as White and been rather succesful with it. Some people here say Black has full compensation but I hardly believe that. PLay can continue:
10...d6 11. g3 0-0 12. Bg2 Bg4 13. Rab1 (given by Hans Berliner) Rab8 14. Rb2

I feel rather comfortable in such a variation, as in all my games the question was only whether I can win or only draw. White has an extra pawn (OK, a pretty weird on on the c file, but still...) and his pieces are well placed.  I think he has a good and safe advantage in this line.
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #5 - 09/25/06 at 09:30:17
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well i think 4. Bf4 g5 is not so easy to refute, and so far there have been too few games. A NIC survey recently on it was inconclusive.

Anyway, also must add that the pseudo-gambit 4. Bf4 Bb4+ 5. Nd2 d6 6. ed6 Qf6 7. e3 Nxf2 was covered by Oleynikov on 2nd edition of his chessbase cd and he thinks Black is ok in an unclear position, but I disagree...
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #4 - 09/25/06 at 09:11:14
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lnn2 wrote on 09/25/06 at 08:58:53:
4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nc3 Qe7 7. Qd5 f6 8. ef6 Bxc3 bxc3 Nf6 10. Qd3 is the subject of the article in latest NIC yearbook 80. I also dont like this line for White (6. Nbd2 is a simpler route to the advantage), but the White side has players like Bareev, Krasenkov, Korchnoi amongst others who keep winning.

It is a good line, but you really need to know what to do as white as the plan for black is straightforward while for white it is tough. The guys you mention have only played the line once or twice btw, while the only GMs I know of who play it with black are Rogers and Miezis. They indeed seem to use the Budapest as a drawing weapon and only lose to very strong opposition.
Quote:
Black can try 4. Bf4 g5!? however, where I think Black's position isn't so much worse than say the respectable 6. Be3 Ng4 7. Bg5 h6 8. Bh4 g5 Najdorf!

Shocked
That line is on the constant brink of complete refutation once a serious analyst looks at it.
  

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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #3 - 09/25/06 at 08:58:53
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4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nc3 Qe7 7. Qd5 f6 8. ef6 Bxc3 bxc3 Nf6 10. Qd3 is the subject of the article in latest NIC yearbook 80. I also dont like this line for White (6. Nbd2 is a simpler route to the advantage), but the White side has players like Bareev, Krasenkov, Korchnoi amongst others who keep winning.

I think I once encountered 4. Bf4 Bb4+ 5. Nd2 d6 6. ed6 Qf6 7. e3 Nxf2?!! on internet blitz. This is not covered in John Cox's 1. d4 repertoire book, but is surely dangerous enough for White to be alert! (iirc Dunnington's 1. d4 work didn't deal with this satisfactorily too, recommending instead the odd 7. Nh3?! which he gives a '!'). Black can also try 4. Bf4 g5!?, where I think Black's position isn't so much worse than say the respectable 6. Be3 Ng4 7. Bg5 h6 8. Bh4 g5 Najdorf!
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #2 - 09/25/06 at 08:14:52
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I agree with Willempie in that the Budapest Defence should not be be viewed as a gambit, as the only line in which White hangs on to the pawn 1. d4 Ktf6 ; 2. c4 e5 ; 3. de Ktg5 ; 4. Bf4 Ktc6 ; 5. Ktf3 Bb4+ ; 6. Ktc3 Qe7 ; 7. Qd5 f6 ; 8.ef gives Black full compensation and -c3 is likely to fall to ...Qa3 anyway.
So the positional justification that one expects (but by no means always gets) from such real gambits as the Morra (d-file pressure) or Benko (Queenside pressure) is not needed here.
The simple fact that Black tries to prove that the c-pawn stands out of place is enough to make this a very interesting opening.
 Black's strategic goals are not clearly outlined but that does not mean he is relying on "cheap tricks". The Kingside attack he often gets is a strategic trump, which will not necessarily rely on heavy calculation. He is ready to play a complex middlegame based on active piece play and creative thinking.
 So in answer to DSanchez' worries, I can assure him that I am predominantly a positional player, and yet I very much enjoy the Budapest with either colour. It's not my main defence to 1.d4, because White has certain lines that lead to a clear edge-which doesn't meen there's no lee-way to outplay your opponent-, but as a reserve weapon, it can serve you very well.
You've already pointed out all the themes yourself, now there's nothing left to do but to play it!
  
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Re: Budapest Ideas
Reply #1 - 09/25/06 at 07:29:21
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I have played it a lot, but I quit playing it. Best way to view the Budapest is to view it in a similar way as the black side of a scotch or other e4-e5 openings in which the exchange e5xd4 takes place. An excellent book is an oldie (I guess from the 80s) by Otto Borik. Basically the Budapest isnt really a gambit anymore and is more used as an equalising or drawing weapon. I have quite some draws against better players, but also quite some against much weaker ones.

A couple of themes which are true for the main lines:
-"Attack" the center with pieces not pawns.
-Black plays on the dark squares (moves as a5, d6 are common).
-Black plays a hemmung strategy: everything is based on stopping the e5 advance and an eye is kept on the c5 break.
-The "white white bishop" is a bad piece when compared with the scotch. Due to the pawn on c4 this bishop can only do something active an the a8-h1 diagonal, but there more often than not it is being dominated by the e5-knight. Plus of course there is the risk that black will exchange that bishop and head for opposite coloured bishops.
-In the main lines play is very simple for black: knights to c6 and e5, short castling, Qe7, Re8 and some combination of a5 (for the rook lift if white is too passive), d6 and sometimes b6. Leaves only the bishop on c8 to be placed.
-The black black bishop is usually best on b4 if it pins the knight and best on c5 if it forces e3 which blocks in the c1-bishop (and then a5 will come in handy as white needs to fianchetto that one).
-In the Alekhine variation play is rather more dynamic, but the same themes apply, focus on the dark squares (esp that gaping hole on d4) and attack the center with pieces.

The suggested lines (I think they are best according to theory) to play as black are:
-Bf4 variation, just the main lines, no joking around with g5 as that is bad. With the main line the Bb4+ Nc3 line is excellent for black (if you get that one on board you can start thinking of winning) as the doubled c-pawns are a real strategic headache for white. The other line with Nbd2 is I think the best for white, but are very hard to win if black keeps tabs on the c5 push as you dont want to open the position against the bishop pair.
-Nf3 variation, basically both Nc6 and Bc5 are good for equality (or rather between equality and +/=)
-The Alekhine, retreat to c6 with the knight. Check an ancient game Keres-Gilg in which black get decent play but screws up with f6 iso g6 (breaking the rule of not attacking with pieces). This