Latest Updates:
Normal Topic 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5!? state of play? (Read 9176 times)
Lou_Cyber
Full Member
***
Offline


"I didnīt understand that.
It must be true."

Posts: 237
Location: Rendsburg
Joined: 01/28/05
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5!? state of play?
Reply #8 - 09/26/06 at 21:54:36
Post Tools
Hi,

I faced this variation last week. Here we go:

Lou_Cyber - N.N.
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.dxe dxe 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 6.Bc4 Be6 7.Bxe6 fxe 8.f3 (good to know Mr. Kasparov at my side so far - I didnīt know shit about theory)

... Bd6 9.Be3 (is Bg5!? a better idea) a6 10.Nge2 Ke7 11.Na4!? (Fritz didnīt like it, but I donīt find a clear way to improve whites position).

... Nd7 12.b3 b5 13.Nb2 Rhb8 14.00 h6 15.Rab1 b4 16.c4 Bc5 17.Bxc5 Nxc5 18.Rbd1 a5 19.Nc1 Nfd7 20.Rd2 Rb6 21.Rfd1 Rd6 22.Nbd3 Rd8 23.Kf1? (much better was Kf2-Ke3 in order to fight for control of d4).

... g5 24.Ke2 Rg8 25.h3 Rd8 26.Nxc5 Nxc5 27.Nd3 Nxd3 28.Rxd3 Rd4 29.g4? (I didnīt realise the dangers on the side of the board; 29.c5! still looks like a forced draw at least).

... c5=/+ 30.Ke3 Kf6 31.R1d2 Ra8 32.Rh2 Rad8 33.Rhad2 a4 34.Rd1 axb 35.axb Ra8 36.Rh1? (last chance to save the game by passive defence with 37.Ke2 Ra2+ 38.R3d2 Ra3 39.Rd3. Black can open the h-file, but then the white king can hide behind the rooks on the c-file).

... Rb3 37.h4 Rxd3+ 38.Kxd3 Rxb3+ - black wins a pawn and the ending is lost, had to give up on move 49.

I (1700) played against a stronger opponent (2000) but still believe that it is hard for either side to play for a clear advantage, but isnīt it even harder for black? Iīd be grateful for any comments.

Lou
  

If you try, you may lose. If you donīt try, you have lost.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5!? state of play?
Reply #7 - 09/26/06 at 12:46:11
Post Tools
[Event "Bad Zwesten op 9th"]
[Site "Bad Zwesten"]
[Date "2005.01.02"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Kasparov,Sergey"]
[Black "Jobava,Baadur"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "B07"]
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.dxe5 dxe5 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 6.Bc4 Be6 7.Bxe6 fxe6 8.f3 Bc5
9.Nd1 Ke7 10.Be3 Bb6 11.Nh3 Nc6 12.c3 Rag8 13.Nhf2 g5 14.Bxb6 axb6 15.Ne3 h5 16.h4 g4
17.Ke2 Nd8 18.a4 gxf3+ 1/2

Black can  claim to be somewhat more comfortable. That's the minority attack i talked about
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 629
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5!? state of play?
Reply #6 - 09/26/06 at 10:29:12
Post Tools
What minority?? The pawn structure is symmetrical after 5. ...Kxd8. Even after Black's pawns have been spoiled with 6. Bc4 Be6 ; 7. Bxe6 fe, there is no minority to speak of. Are you referring to the open f-file?
I agree that 6. ...Be6 is probably the best attempt at achieving some counterplay, but the cost of inferior structure + being left with the lesser Bishop is rather high. I don't see anyone winning this with Black unless faced with a significantly weaker opponent.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5!? state of play?
Reply #5 - 09/26/06 at 10:28:22
Post Tools
The endgame after 4. dxe5 dxe5 5.Qxd8 Kxd8 6.Bc4 Be6 does look very much to my tastes as white, though it may be drawable for black. Here's an oldie in this line, which I analysed centuries ago with my dad:

[Event "IBM"]
[Site "Amsterdam"]
[Date "1970.07.??"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Spassky,Boris V"]
[Black "Ree,Hans"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B07"]
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.dxe5 dxe5 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 6.Bc4 Be6 7.Bxe6 fxe6 8.Nf3 Bd6 9.Be3 Nc6 10.0-0-0 Ng4 11.Bg5+ Ke8 12.Bh4 Nf6 13.Ne1 Rf8 14.Nd3 Nh5 15.Nb5 Rc8 16.Rd2 Nf6 17.f3 Ke7 18.c4 a6 19.Nxd6 cxd6 20.Kb1 h6 21.c5 dxc5 22.Nxc5 Rc7 23.Rhd1 g5 24.Bg3 Rfc8 25.Rd6 Nd4 26.Bxe5 Rxc5 27.Bxd4 Rb5 28.Rb6 Rxb6 29.Bxb6 g4 30.Be3 gxf3 31.gxf3 h5 32.Bg5 Rg8 33.h4 e5 34.Rc1 Ke6 35.Rc7 Rb8 36.Rg7 Nd7 37.Rg6+ Kf7 38.Rd6 Nf8 39.Rf6+ Kg7 40.Rb6 Kf7 41.Rh6  1-0

  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5!? state of play?
Reply #4 - 09/26/06 at 10:16:28
Post Tools
I don't think that the endgame is played only for a draw. Jobava i think get an edge in this endgame using a minority attack at the Kingside.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2015
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5!? state of play?
Reply #3 - 09/26/06 at 10:12:50
Post Tools
Also not to be forgotten is 1. e4 d6 ; 2. d4 Nf6 ; 3. Nc3 Nd7 ; 4 g4!? which blacks play does rather invite. I remember seeing a game go 4 Nf3 e5 5 g4 and thinking that 4 g4 had to make more 'sense' (but perhaps be rather over the top still) and later being amused to find it (iirc) recommended in the appropiate volume of opening according to Anand Smiley

Could certainly be an argument for the move order in this thread this.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 629
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5!? state of play?
Reply #2 - 09/25/06 at 20:24:37
Post Tools
The main idea of this move-order is to avoid 1. e4 e5 ; 2. Ktf3 d6 ; 3. d4 Ktf6 ; 4. de.
The inclusion of ...Ktf6 and Ktc3 is to Black's favour, but it's of course still much too early for him to claim equality.
Black may be holding the symmetrical position arising from the Queen exchange (6. ...Ke8 is perhaps more solid than 6. ...Be6) if he plays accurately, but his task strikes me as being a bit thankless. Only to be played with a draw in mind.
The other modern move-order leading to the Philidor is 1. e4 d6 ; 2. d4 Ktf6 ; 3. Ktc3 Ktbd7 ; 4. Ktf3 e5. This leaves Black with more lee-way for outplaying his opponent. The independant line here is 4. f4, which leads to sharp play.

2. f4 d5 should be no worry for Black whatever he usually aims for.
2. d4 Ktf6 ; 3. f3 e5 (3. ...c5/3. ...g6) 4. d5 can be treated in calm Philidor fashion with 4. ...Be7 or in violent style with 4. ...Ktxe5!? and 3. Bd3 Ktc6 (3. ...e5/3. ...g6) is an interesting position I tried to discuss here, but I received zero answers.
If Alumbrado has some ideas to share, the thread is called "1. e4 d6 ; 2. d4 Ktf6 ; 3. Bd3 Ktc6 & other White deviations" 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
alumbrado
God Member
*****
Offline


Esse quam videri bonus
malebo

Posts: 1418
Location: London
Joined: 02/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5!? state of play?
Reply #1 - 09/25/06 at 19:43:37
Post Tools
Black ought to be OK in the queenless middlegame but it is a little bit too easy to say that Black is equal after 4.Nf3.  Also White has some interesting deviations en route e.g. 1.e4 d6 2.f4!? (OK if you're planning to play a Pirc but not so good if you want the Philidor); 2.Nc3!?; 2.d4 Nf6 3.f3!?; 3.Bd3!? (which I think is more challenging than most commentators give it credit for).

On the other hand, the 1..d6 move order avoids the Danish Gambit, the King's Gambit etc. so I suppose it is a matter of taste.
  

If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5!? state of play?
09/25/06 at 15:52:24
Post Tools
4. dxe5 dxe5 5.Qxd8 Kxd8 6.Bc4 Be6 is as i know the main line and an interesting position is OTB. Of course white can play 4.Nf3 but as i know this philidor position is known as equal (Azmaiparasvilli has tested it a lot of times).

I have heard that it was proposed by Dzindzi in a tape some years ago and this has make me to respect this line. Has anyone any information?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo