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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Morra line w/ early a6,b5,Bb7 (Read 77974 times)
Dji
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Re: Morra line w/ early a6,b5,Bb7
Reply #42 - 07/25/07 at 19:34:33
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Thanks you sincerely all for posting, we just try to find the truth isn't it ?
 Like i said before i'm not sure that Nd5 is the best move but probably in klick's last variation it work again  

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2007.07.25"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Dji"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "B21"]
[PlyCount "58"]
[EventDate "1991.??.??"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. c3 dxc3 5. Nxc3 a6 6. Bc4 b5 7. Bb3 Bb7 8. Qe2
d6 9. Bf4 Nd7 10. O-O Ngf6 11. Rad1  Qb8 12. Nd5 Nh5 13. Bd2 g6 14. g4 Nhf6 (
14... Ng7 15. Bc3) 15. Nxf6+ Nxf6 16. Bc3 Bg7 (16... e5 17. Ng5 h6 18. Bxf7+
Ke7 19. f4 Qa7+ (19... hxg5 20. fxe5 Kxf7 21. Rxf6+ +/-) 20. Rf2 hxg5 21. fxe5
Kxf7 22. Bd4 Qb8 23. Rxf6+ Kg8 24. Rxg6+ Kh7 25. Rxg5 Qd8 26. Qe3 +-) 17. g5
Nh5 18. Bb4 d5 19. Bxd5 Bxd5 20. exd5 (20. Rxd5) 20... Qf4 21. dxe6 Qxb4 (21...
Qg4+ 22. Kh1 Qxb4 23. exf7+ Kxf7 24. Rd7+ Kf8 25. Ne5 +-) 22. exf7+ Kf8 23.
Rfe1 Qg4+ 24. Kh1 Qg2+ 25. Kxg2 Nf4+ 26. Kg3 Nxe2+ 27. Rxe2 Ra7 28. Nd4 Bxd4
29. Rxd4 Kxf7 with a pawn up and more space

  

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Re: Morra line w/ early a6,b5,Bb7
Reply #41 - 07/25/07 at 17:07:04
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I wonder if not the daring

1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. c3 dxc3 4. Nf3 e6 5. Bc4 a6 6. Nxc3 b5 7. Bb3 Bb7 8. Qe2
d6 9. O-O Nd7 10. Bf4 Ngf6 11. Rad1 Qb8 12. Nd5 Nh5 13. Bd2 g6!? is interesting, protecting the knight and trying to do something about blacks kingside.

For instance 14. Bb4 (14. g4
Nhf6 15. Bc3 Bg7) 14... a5 15. Rc1!? Bxd5  16. exd5 Nf4 with ...e5 to follow.
  

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Re: Morra line w/ early a6,b5,Bb7
Reply #40 - 07/25/07 at 15:53:30
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Thanks again, 12.e5 indeed is stronger than 12.Rd2. The fact, that 12.e5 must be played after 10...Be7 but not after 10...Nf6 is a bit counterintuitive. It has to do with the less protected knight on d7.

The ...Qb6 line is harder to crack, I am afraid.
10.Bf4 Be7 11.Rfd1 Qb6 12.a4 b4 13.a5 Qc7 14.e5 d5 15.Na4 Qxa5 (Nh6 16.Nd4 0-0 cannot be good, as the Black king is in continuous danger) 16.Rdc1
a)16...Qb5 17.Qd1 Rc8 18.Nd4 Rxc1 (Qa5 19.Nc5) 19.Rxc1 Qa5 20.Nc6 (20.Qh5 g6) Bxc6 21.Rxc6 Qb5 and now what?
b)not the bold 16...Qd8!? 17.Nd4 h5? intending 18...g5 because of 18.Nc6, but Qd8!? 17.Nd4 Rc8 18.Qh5 Kf8 and again I am not sure of White's compensation. Two pawns are quite a lot.
My problem here is, that I don't like White nor Black! It will take a lot of time to develop those two pieces on g8 and h8. At the other hand Na4 is not on an optimal square either.
So maybe 12.a4 b4 13.a5 Qc7 14.e5 d5 15.Nxd5 is the way to go?
a)15...exd5 16.Bxd5 Bxd5 17.Rxd5 looks critical. Black has quite a few reasonable moves: Nf8; Qb7; Qc6. White may try 16.Rxd5 Nc5 17.e6 Qxf4 (Nxb3 18.exf7+ Kxf7 19.Rf5+ Nf6 20.Bxc7 maintains the attack) 18.Rxc5 Bxc5 19.exf7+ Kf8 20.fxg8Q+ Rxg8 21.Qc2 though.
b)15...Bxd5 16.Rxd5 exd5 17.Bxd5 and Black has a little problem with pawn f7.
This looks more promising for White than 15.Na4. I am glad I could return your favour.  Wink

I have also looked at 10.Bf4 Nf6 11.Rad1 Qb6 (never played before, afaIk)
a)12.Rd2 (this plan is not as good as after 11...Qb8) Be7 13.Rfd1 b4 14.Na4 Qb5 (and this is the reason why).
b)12.Nd5 exd5 13.exd5+ Kd8 (Be7 14.Rfe1 is line c) 14.Ng5 Kc7 15.Nxf7 Rg8 16.Be3 Qa5 17.Bd2 Qb6 and White has at least a draw and likely more.
c)12.Rfe1 Be7 (b4? 13.Nd5 is what White wants) 13.Nd5 exd5 14.exd5 Ng8 (this move shows, why I am interested in 10...Be7 iso 10...Nf6) 15.Nd4 Kf8 16.Nf5 Ne5 (only move) 17.Bxe5 dxe5 18.Qxe5 Bf6 19.Qf4 and Black's problems are not over yet.

Well, well, the Morragambit looks in good shape again, as we have found good ways to combat the problem defences of the last few years: the 6...a6 variation (see my modest contribution in the Hague-Überdeker thread), the 7...Nge7 8.Bg5 f6 variation (based on Zacharov's knight sac 11.Nd5, see also the recent game Zelic-Martinovic, Split 2007 and News since Langrock's book thread) and this early a6, b5 variation.
Mission accomplished.
Very satisfactory.  Cool

But where remains Überdeker, to defend the honour of the Sicilian?

  

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Re: Morra line w/ early a6,b5,Bb7
Reply #39 - 07/25/07 at 08:45:10
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[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2007.07.25"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Dji"]
[Black "analyse"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "B21"]
[PlyCount "35"]
[EventDate "1989.??.??"]

1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. c3 dxc3 4. Nxc3 e6 5. Nf3 a6 6. Bc4 b5 7. Bb3 Bb7 8. Qe2
d6 9. O-O Nd7 10. Bf4 Be7 11. Rfd1 $1 Qb6 12. a4 b4 13. a5 Qc7 14. e5 d5 (
14... bxc3 15. exd6 Qb8 16. Ne5) 15. Na4!?  Probably withe can take time because there a general's problem  with black's kingside (it seem to be the main problem after e5 d5 in many variation   Nh6 (15... Qxa5 16. Rdc1 Nh6 17.Nd4 Rc8 18. Nc5 Qxa1 19. Rxa1 Nxc5 20. Bc2 O-O 21. Bxh6 gxh6 22. Qd2) (15...
Rc8 16. Rdc1 Qxa5) 16. Nd4 O-O 17. Qh5 Rac8 18. Rd3 (18. Bc2) (18. Rdc1) *

  

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Re: Morra line w/ early a6,b5,Bb7
Reply #38 - 07/25/07 at 07:41:45
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MNb wrote on 07/24/07 at 20:44:19:
Moreover there is 10.Bf4 Be7 11.Rfd1 (remember your own question? What is the king's rook doing there?) Qb8 12.Rd2 (moves like 12.a3 and 12.Rac1 are answered with the nice transposition Ngf6) b4 and once again the Nd5-sac does not work, so 13.Na4 Ngf6 and Black has avoided all the dangerous lines discussed above.
This only serves as a warning. As soon as Black players have been crushed by the Nd5-stuff a few times, they will look for new ways - like playing ...Be7 before ...Nf6.


For this one i can't agreed!
[[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2007.07.25"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Dji"]
[Black "Analyse"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "B21"]
[Annotator "Dji"]
[PlyCount "41"]
[EventDate "2003.08.21"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2003.11.25"]

1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. c3 dxc3 4. Nxc3 e6 5. Nf3 a6 6. Bc4 b5 7. Bb3 Bb7 8. Qe2
d6 9. O-O Nd7 10. Rd1 Be7 11. Bf4 don't pay attention to the move order Qb8 12. e5 d5 (12... Bxf3is Langrock 's main line)  13. Rac1  Withe can take time because black just can't move!(Here Langrock give only 13.Nd4!? witn compensation) Qd8 ( or 13... Nh6 14. Qd2 Nf5 (14... Ng4 15. Nxd5 Bxd5 16. Bxd5 exd5 17. e6 +-) 15.
Nxd5 +-) ( or 13... b4 14. Nxd5 exd5 (14... Bxd5 15. Rxd5 exd5 16. Bxd5 Nb6 17.
Bxf7+ +-) 15. Ba4 +-) ( or 13... Qa7 14. Be3 Qb8 15. Qd2 Qd8 16. Nxd5 exd5 17.
Bxd5 Rb8 (17... Bxd5 18. Qxd5 Rc8 19. Qb7 +-) 18. Bxb7 Rxb7 19. Qc3) 14. Nxd5
Bxd5 (14... exd5 15. e6 fxe6 16. Bc7 Qc8 17. Be5 +/-) 15. Bxd5 exd5 16. e6 Nf8
17. exf7+ Kxf7 18. Ne5+ Ke8 19. Qh5+ g6 20. Qf3 Nf6 21. Bg5 +- *

For the other one probably I find enough compentation but i'm not entirely satisfied...to be continued
  

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Re: Morra line w/ early a6,b5,Bb7
Reply #37 - 07/24/07 at 20:44:19
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This basically is the game Cinar-Caoili, Istanbul 2000. Black played 12.a4 b4 (iso Nc5) 13.a5 Qc7 (iso losing a tempo with Qc6) 14.Na4 e5, but imo simply Ngf6 leads to a good game for Black - no knight sacs around! Of course 14.e5 can be answered with ...d5.
Moreover there is 10.Bf4 Be7 11.Rfd1 (remember your own question? What is the king's rook doing there?) Qb8 12.Rd2 (moves like 12.a3 and 12.Rac1 are answered with the nice transposition Ngf6) b4 and once again the Nd5-sac does not work, so 13.Na4 Ngf6 and Black has avoided all the dangerous lines discussed above.
This only serves as a warning. As soon as Black players have been crushed by the Nd5-stuff a few times, they will look for new ways - like playing ...Be7 before ...Nf6.
Flesch in his book on the Morra Gambit wrote a few nice things about opening preparation. The problem with the Morra Gambit is, that the defenders follow his advices as well.  Sad
  

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Re: Morra line w/ early a6,b5,Bb7
Reply #36 - 07/24/07 at 11:27:37
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[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2007.07.24"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Dji"]
[Black "analyse"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "B21"]
[PlyCount "31"]
[EventDate "2007.07.24"]

1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. c3 dxc3 4. Nxc3 e6 5. Nf3 a6 6. Bc4 b5 7. Bb3 Bb7 8. Qe2
d6 9. O-O Nd7 10. Bf4 Be7 11. Rfd1!  When black play Be7 instead of Nf6, Nd5 sac don't work in general so there nothing to do for rooks on the e file and on the other hand it's important fo the queen 's rook  to stay on the a file   Qb6 12. a4 a thematic move b4 (12... Nc5 13. Bc2 b4 14.
a5 Qc6 15. Nd4 Qc7 (15... Qc8 16. Na4 e5 17. Nxc5 dxc5 18. Bxe5 cxd4 19. Bxg7
Bf6 20. Ba4+ Ke7 21. Rac1 with attack) 16. e5 d5 17. Na4 Qxa5 18. Nxc5 Qxc5 19. Ba4+
Kf8 20. Qf3 with an attack) 13. a5 Qc7 14. e5!  bxc3 15. exd6 Qb8 16. Ne5 *

« Last Edit: 07/24/07 at 13:33:53 by Dji »  

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Re: Morra line w/ early a6,b5,Bb7
Reply #35 - 07/23/07 at 23:04:08
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Which brings us to the next problem (as so often with the Morra Gambit; good work btw). Maybe b8 is an inferior square for Her Majesty, after all she places herself voluntarily in the fireline of the white bishop. There is another square available, which also protects the weakling on d6. See the game Cinar-Caoili, Istanbul 2000, as a starting point.
4...e6 5.Bc4 a6 6.Nf3 b5 7.Bb3 Bb7 8.Qe2 d6 9.0-0 Nd7 10.Rd1 Be7 11.Bf4 Qb6!? idea 12.Rd2 b4!? and Black is better prepared for the knight sac, while 13.Na4 can be answered with Qb5!?
Of course this idea also can be applied after 10.Bf4 Be7 11.Rad1 Qb6!?, when Cinar's plan a2-a4-a5 is not available.

This made me wonder again - if the knight sac (Nd5) is so dangerous, why not try to get normal positions via this move order? 10.Rd1 Be7 11.Bf4 Qb8 or 10.Bf4 Be7 11.Rad1 Qb8 and the three most relevant games are not very convincing from White's point of view:

Langrock-Bouroutzakis, Kiel 2000
Weitzer-Siepelt, DEU 2002
Nikhilesh-Vioreanu, Goa 2002.

It is clear, that with the knight still on g8, the knight sac loses much of its power. If White choses a quieter plan, then ...Nf6 will follow.
  

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Re: Morra line w/ early a6,b5,Bb7
Reply #34 - 07/23/07 at 12:53:58
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Some variations to show that black's life is not so easy after 12.Nd5 Nh5 13.Bd2 Nc5 (13...Be7? 14.Ne7 Ke7 15.Bb4+-  or  13...Ne5? 14.Ne5 de5 15.Nxf6+ gf6 16.Bxe6! fe6 17.Qh5+-   or   13...Nhf6 maybe best  14.Nd4!? with compensation (14.Bf4=)) 14.Ba5 ed5 15.ed5 Be7 (15...Kd7 16.Ng5 Nf6 17.Rfe1 Qa7  18.Nxf7 +/- ) 16.Rfe1 0-0 18.Qe7 Re8 19.Qg5 with initiative
  

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Re: Morra line w/ early a6,b5,Bb7
Reply #33 - 07/20/07 at 08:35:44
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As I already wrote, this line does not worry me. Just 12.Rd2 Be7 13.Rfd1 transposes to Zelic-Armanda, Split 1998. I think White can play more ambitiously with 16.Nxf7!? than Zelic did.
In general I think White only should sac the piece sac, if Black plays ...b4. The reason is of course to have a4 available for the bishop. Specifically I think 11...Qb8 12.Nd5 Nh5 is quite good for Black. After 12.Rd2 b4 13.Nd5 Nh5 White has 14.Ba4, keeping Black's king in the centre. Things are going downhill very quickly after 11...Qb8 12.Rd2 b4 13.Nd5 exd5 14.exd5+ Be7 15.Re1 (it does not matter from where this rook is coming) Ng8 16.Ba4.
A deviation from this pattern is 11...Qb8 12.Rd2 Be7 13.Rfd1 b4 14.Rxd6.
So Black's most solid option is 11...Qb8 12.Rd2 b4 13.Nd5 Nc5, but White must have sufficient long term compenation after 14.Nxf6+ gxf6 15.Bc2. [/quote]

Maybe you've right i'm not sure at all that 12.Nd5 is the best move maybe Rd2 is better
But,imo, it's quite premature to give a black advantage after 12.Nd5 Nh5 .This need further investigations Tongue
  

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Re: Morra line w/ early a6,b5,Bb7
Reply #32 - 07/20/07 at 05:05:37
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Thanks, your stuff looks quite good. Anyhow you have convinced me, that the queen's rook must go to d1. Then White can play the king's rook to the e-file, if necessary.

Dji wrote on 07/19/07 at 20:52:00:
In the line  8.Qe2 d6 9.0-0 Nd7 10.Bf4 Ngf6 11.Rad1 Qb8 again 12.Nd5 and here it's  adventurous to take the knight 12...ed5 13.e5!? (13.ed5 is probably good for white too)with an attack


As I already wrote, this line does not worry me. Just 12.Rd2 Be7 13.Rfd1 transposes to Zelic-Armanda, Split 1998. I think White can play more ambitiously with 16.Nxf7!? than Zelic did.
In general I think White only should sac the piece sac, if Black plays ...b4. The reason is of course to have a4 available for the bishop. Specifically I think 11...Qb8 12.Nd5 Nh5 is quite good for Black. After 12.Rd2 b4 13.Nd5 Nh5 White has 14.Ba4, keeping Black's king in the centre. Things are going downhill very quickly after 11...Qb8 12.Rd2 b4 13.Nd5 exd5 14.exd5+ Be7 15.Re1 (it does not matter from where this rook is coming) Ng8 16.Ba4.
A deviation from this pattern is 11...Qb8 12.Rd2 Be7 13.Rfd1 b4 14.Rxd6.
So Black's most solid option is 11...Qb8 12.Rd2 b4 13.Nd5 Nc5, but White must have sufficient long term compenation after 14.Nxf6+ gxf6 15.Bc2.
  

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Re: Morra line w/ early a6,b5,Bb7
Reply #31 - 07/19/07 at 20:52:00
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continuation 16...Ne4 17.Re1 Qf6 (...Rc8 18.Qd3 f5 19.Nd4 Bd4 20.Qd4 Qf6 21.Qxb4 Rb8 22.Qa5 f4 23.f3 Nec5 24.Bf2 Qd8 25.Qc3+-) 18.Bd5 Bd5 19.Rd5 Ng3 20.hg3 Bb6 (or 20...Rc8 21.Qd2 Qd8 22. Re7 Nf6 23.Ng5+/-) 21.Qd2 Rd8 22.Re7 b3 23.ab3 h6 24.Qc2 g6 25.Qc2 Qb2 26.Rd7 Bf2+ 27.Kh2 Td7 28.Qd7 Rg7 29.Qe5 Kh7 30.d7 Bb6 31.Rd6 Bd8 32.Ra6+/-
16...h6  16...Be4   16...Bxf3  16...g6 are good for white too


In the line  8.Qe2 d6 9.0-0 Nd7 10.Bf4 Ngf6 11.Rad1 Qb8 again 12.Nd5 and here it's  adventurous to take the knight 12...ed5 13.e5!? (13.ed5 is probably good for white too)with an attack
  

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Re: Morra line w/ early a6,b5,Bb7
Reply #30 - 07/19/07 at 14:13:35
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MNb wrote on 07/19/07 at 03:43:58:
Quite similar are Hamitevici,V-Spoelman,W/Kreta 2004 and Schmelz,A-Johannesson,J/ICCF Email 2002. That is where I got the ideas from.

8.Qe2 d6 9.0-0 Nd7 10.Bf4 Ngf6 11.Rad1 b4 12.Nd5 exd5 13.exd5+ (you will have to convince me of White's chances after 13.e5 dxe5 14.Nxe5 Be7) Be7 14.Re1 Kf8 (iso Ng8) 15.Nd4 Ne5 and I don't see White crushing through, but maybe it's just me.


Sorry it seem i've mixed variation and game in my database and it's result that my precedent post is bad but now i've find the good one and i want to give plenty of variation just to show that white have something for the piece less.

8.Qe2 d6 9.0-0 Nd7 10.Bf4 Ngf6 11.Rad1 b4 12.Nd5 exd5 13.exd5+  Be7 14.Bxd6 (14.Re1 is interesting too 14...Kf8 15.Nh4 for example Ne5? 16.Bxe5 de5 17.d6+/-  or 15...g6 16.Bh6+ Ke8 17.Ba4 Ndxd5 18.Qf3   or   15...Nc5 16.Nf5 Nxb3 17.ab3 Nxd5 18.Qg4+-   or   15...Ne8 16.Nf5 Bf6 17.Nd6 Nd6 18.Bd6+ Kg8 19.Be7 Be7 20.Qe7 Qe7 21.Re7 Nc5 22.d6 h6 23.Bxf7+ with good compensation, but one line is not clear and here i think 14.Bxd6 is probably stronger . 14...Kf8 15.Bg3 Bc5 (other moves are probably worse 15...Qa5 16.d6 Bd8 17.Wc4 Nd5 18.Rd5 Bd5 19.Qd5 Qd5 20.Bd5 Rc8 21.Bb7 Rc2 22.Ba6 Rb2 23.Bb5 Nf6 24.Ne5 b3 25.ab3 Rb3 26.Bc4 Rb7 27.Nc6+-  or 15...Ng8 16.d6 Bf6 17.Rc1 a5 Rc7 Ba6 19.Bc4 Bc4 20.Qc4 Bb2 21.Bh4 f6 22.Qd5 Rb8 23.Qe6+/-)   16.d6 Qe8 Fritz's favorite move 17.Qc4 Rc8 (Bxf3 and Ne4 are not particulary better) 18.Rfe1 Ne4 19.Qd3 Bb6Ng5 Nxg5 21.Re8 Re8 22.Ba4+/-    16....Ne4 Fritz second favorite .....Oh sorry i 've to work the end next time
  

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Re: Morra line w/ early a6,b5,Bb7
Reply #29 - 07/19/07 at 03:43:58
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Quite similar are Hamitevici,V-Spoelman,W/Kreta 2004 and Schmelz,A-Johannesson,J/ICCF Email 2002. That is where I got the ideas from.

8.Qe2 d6 9.0-0 Nd7 10.Bf4 Ngf6 11.Rad1 b4 12.Nd5 exd5 13.exd5+ (you will have to convince me of White's chances after 13.e5 dxe5 14.Nxe5 Be7) Be7 14.Re1 Kf8 (iso Ng8) 15.Nd4 Ne5 and I don't see White crushing through, but maybe it's just me.
  

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Re: Morra line w/ early a6,b5,Bb7
Reply #28 - 07/18/07 at 13:16:24
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[quote author=MNb link=1159716408/15#27 date=1184632995]8.Qe2 d6 9.0-0 Nd7 10.Bf4
a)10...b4 11.Na4 Ngf6 and now what? The piece sac 11.Nd5 exd5 12.exd5+ Be7 13.Bxd6 Kf8 does not look correct to me.

I know just a game in this line: Matychenkov-Padymov . Black 've tried to play logical maves and develop as quickly as possible but problems remains 13.Bxd6 Kf8 14.Bg3 Nh6 (of course there is plenty of other possible moves and i try one or two...) 15.d6 Bf6 16.Rac1 g6 17.Rc7 Bf3 18.Qf3 Kg7 and i believe in this position white have at least équality... 

b)10...Ngf6 11.Rad1 (iso 11.Rfd1)
b1)after 11...Qb8 White has nothing better than 12.Rd2, which only transposes.
b2)The advantage might become clear after 11...b4 12.Nd5 exd5 (Nc5!?)13.exd5+ Be7 14.Bxd6 Kf8 15.Bxe7+ (15.Bg3!?) Qxe7 16.Qxe7+ Kxe7 17.d6+ Kf8 18.Ng5 h6 19.Nxf7 Rh7 20.Rfe1, which is not possible with the rook on a1 iso f1.

11...b4 12.Nd5 exd5 (Nc5!? ok interesting but black king have to find his way)13.exd5+ Be7 and here 14.Re1 (is stronger than 14.Bxd6) Ng8 (...0-0 15.De7+=) 15.Nd4 with the idea Nf5 and my analyse black's  evidente lack of developpemant is  a compentation more than sufficient but white have another way 12.Nd5 exd5 13.e5!?
  

Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
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