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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Where is white advantage in the modern ? (Read 38168 times)
parisestmagique
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Re: Where is white advantage in the modern ?
Reply #80 - 11/03/06 at 08:47:25
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Ok no more white variations, i will not know where is white advantage in the Modern defense ...
  
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Keano
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Re: Where is white advantage in the modern ?
Reply #79 - 11/02/06 at 15:35:48
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Ok we will have to disagree about this, I have wasted enough time trying to persuade you - have you even thought about this position for yourself? Engines are basically stupid, they do not understand positions, instead they try to analyse them by brute force - you are a human, you have to play and understand this position. I dont claim to be 2700, but I do claim to understand and have a better handle on this position than Fritz (this is not difficult and doesnt make me a super GM incidentally, it is extremely common in early opening stage that the computer cannot comprehend the classical principles.) You are using the engine as a crutch to avoid thinking for yourself - they are useful things but you need to help them and point them in the right direction, otherwise they should come with a health warning!

I have said enough, if you do some real work and come back with something interesting then I´ll return -otherwise we will just keep going back and forwards on this.
  
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parisestmagique
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Re: Where is white advantage in the modern ?
Reply #78 - 11/02/06 at 10:39:17
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We have not the same definition of weackness, mine is somethink witch can be attacked but the opponent pieces. How can you attack the pawn on g6 ? By the way it controls white majority h4,g2,h2 with pawn h5 and Bg6. Fritz9 weack positionnaly ?! ok if you have more than 2700 rating and a lot more over the board.
  
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Keano
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Re: Where is white advantage in the modern ?
Reply #77 - 11/02/06 at 09:11:19
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I rest my case! Seriously you should not rely on an engine for evaluation of this type of position - they are good in tactical situations, but not for this. If you do your opening preparation like this you are going to end up losing the plot pretty quickly. It took Fritz one night of reflection to allow the same endgame except weakening his kingside more with ...h5  Smiley I love it!
  
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parisestmagique
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Re: Where is white advantage in the modern ?
Reply #76 - 11/01/06 at 13:03:34
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After one night of "reflexion" Fritz9 find 14.000 h5 equal so the ball is again in white side ...
  
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parisestmagique
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Re: Where is white advantage in the modern ?
Reply #75 - 10/31/06 at 18:20:33
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= is my judgment and also Fritz one. If white tries to play c4c5 i will try to play dxc5 and Bishop e6 d5 nice square and extra pawn ! 14.000 h5 15.Bd4 BxB 16.QxB Qf6 is also not bad .
  
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Keano
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Re: Where is white advantage in the modern ?
Reply #74 - 10/31/06 at 18:03:03
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My queenside is quite present, I will put the other pawn on a white square also (a2,b3, c4). You say you havent played ..c5 but I think you will have to as otherwise you have to watch White playing c5 to fix the pawns and secure a nice square for the Knight - after that it would be a technical win I imagine based on principle of 2 weaknesses. Gott go now, have a look at it! Incidently on what basis did you come up with the "=" assessment? It wouldnt have been an engine by any chance  Wink
  
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parisestmagique
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Re: Where is white advantage in the modern ?
Reply #73 - 10/31/06 at 17:57:18
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In witch variation ? In the 17.QxQf6 variation there is no weack g pawn and no queen side weackness i have not played c6c5. And by the way where is the Queenside for you in this endgame ?
  
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Keano
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Re: Where is white advantage in the modern ?
Reply #72 - 10/31/06 at 17:38:17
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Analysing a bit more - I believe the first endgame after 17.Qxf6 is unpleasant for Black and very safe for White - who has the 3-2 majority on the kingside and the weak Black q-side pawns to work with. If you are happy to play this type of position by all means play this line, but dont expect "Black has equal chances", be prepared to suffer.
  
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parisestmagique
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Re: Where is white advantage in the modern ?
Reply #71 - 10/31/06 at 16:47:57
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No more variations to prove a white advantage ? i am the specialist of Black has equality check your Adorjan !
  
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Keano
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Re: Where is white advantage in the modern ?
Reply #70 - 10/31/06 at 12:27:33
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There you go again - "Black has equal chances" and "=" Deja vu!  You need to do a bit more work than this, do all of your openings as Black end up that simple? It must be nice to get equal chances in every variation  Wink
  
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parisestmagique
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Re: Where is white advantage in the modern ?
Reply #69 - 10/31/06 at 10:40:49
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The position may not suit your style but after : 1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.c4 d6 4.Nc3 e5 5.Nf3 exd4 6.Nxd4 Nc6 7.Be3 Nge7 8.h4 h6 9.Qd2 f5 10.exf5 Nxf5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd3 0-0 13.BxNf5 BxB 14.000 Kh7 15.Bd4 BxB 16.QxB Qf6 Black has equal chances. Also after 14.Bxh6 Qe7+ 15.Be3 Qe6 16.000 Qxc4 17.Bd4 BxB 18.QxB QxQ 19.Rxd4 c5 20.Rd2 Kf7 is = Keano wrote on 10/20/06 at 22:21:06:
Thats another interesting system Inn2, although obviously it is aimed primarily at Samisch fans.

ParisMagician - your silicon monster has spotted somethiing I didnt there - ...Bxg2! is a nice move. So it seems after 15...Qe6 I must give the pawn back - best is 16.0-0-0 Qxc4 17.Bd4 - and I assess the resulting endgame as better for White as the 3-1 kinside majority looks more dangerous than the other factors.

Nevertheless, as you have this option maybe instead of the immediate pawn grab 14.Bxh6 White should continue according to program and just play 14.0-0-0. Now Bxh6 is still a threat so I presume Black must take time out to defend with ...Kh7, when White will continue 15.Bd4, swap the dark squared bishops, and depending on Blacks reactions either play for a direct attack with f3 and g4, or if further weaknesses are provoked an endgame can be entertained again - the attacking option looks like more fun!

It is tempting to throw these type of positions into engines, but I believe sometimes it is best to step back and try and see the big picture - look at the position yourself on a chess set with no computer, and imagine yourself sitting in a tournament game with this position - what would you be thinking?

  
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Re: Where is white advantage in the modern ?
Reply #68 - 10/30/06 at 06:08:30
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hello, I find it interesting in these lines White is often able to play dxe5 to good effect, perhaps this is the downside of f6?! Huh

tugui-badea is a nice game. i think there are two ways for White to improve his play: 

at first i thought on principle White should benefit from his superior development with a "open-everything and exchange-everything approach" which is somewhat uncommon in the Samisch (but possibly justified here) with 11. h5 b5 12. Ng3 Nb6 13. hxg6 hxg6 14. Rxh8 Bxh8 15. dxe5 fxe5 16. c5 dxc5 17. Qf2 Nd7 18. Bxc5 and maybe this is += (18...Qa5 19. a3 Bb7 20. Rxd7 followed by Bb6 is a nice trap), and 18... Qc7 19. Be3 Bb7 20. Be2 then Rh1 is an idea. Not sure if this is very much for White though. 

Later my Rybka finds a much easier to play strategic plan based on incarceration of Black's bishop with 12. d5 Nb6 (probably best to get counterplay like this, anyway the c6 pawn is hanging, and blocking up with 12... c5 is known not to be strategically good for Black in the KID Samisch proper) 13. h6! Bf8 14. Bxb6! Qxb6 15. dxc6 and here 15... Qxc6 16. cxb5 axb5 17. Nd4!! threatens a deadly Bxb5 pin, and 15... bxc4 16. Nd5 Qxc6 17. Nxf6+ looks terrible.

Look forward to your Samisch-Modern thread, though i probably contribute more in the independent modern lines with no transposition to the Samisch KID proper, since the latter is more common in my games and will like to keep some analysis for future use!
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Where is white advantage in the modern ?
Reply #67 - 10/29/06 at 23:37:05
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Fair enough. I don't myself set much store by 7 f3 f6 8 h4 c6 -- maybe just 9 de Ne5 10 Nd4 is +/- ? But, in the sequence you give Black can transpose to Tugul--Badea with 11 ...b5.

Will open that Saemisch thread soon! There could be some interesting move order questions here, not least because, after 6 ...Ngf6 7 f3, 7 ...0-0 is far from forced.
  
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Re: Where is white advantage in the modern ?
Reply #66 - 10/27/06 at 04:59:24
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hello, 

After 7. f3 f6 8 h4 c6 , White just goes Qd2/0-0-0/h5 in some order.. don't know what's best play for Black, probably he should try the typical Samisch plan a6/b5/Qa5, but 9. Qd2 Nf7 10. 0-0-0 a6 11. h5 0-0 (11... Qa5 12. hxg6 hxg6 13. Rxh8 Bxh8 14. Kb1 += or 12. g4) 12. hxg6 hxg6 13. Qe1 b5 14. Qg3 or 14. Qh4 is +=/+- since pawng6 is a little tender. think Black is worse than a proper Samisch since amongst other things the absence of the knight on f6 means Black can't block White's h4 with ...h5 easily, and his Bg7 is buried by f6 (so Black can't count on exd4 at some point freeing his dark squared bishop). The other plan for Black is to play exd4/Ne5/f5, but don't see how to make it work and anyway Black's 8...c6 may be abit committal if Black wants to go for this plan. 
I still think Black's best is to transpose to a KID!
  
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