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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Kramnik-Fritz (Read 34084 times)
Klick
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Re: Kramnik-Fritz
Reply #89 - 12/06/06 at 11:32:51
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I haven't followed this match closely as humans vs. computers don't interest me that much. But now I feel for stating the obvious:

In the last game Kramnik was 'forced' to play into the computers hand in an attempt to generate winning-chances and draw the match. Had not Kramnik been forced to do this I don't think Kramnik would have big trouble drawing with his Petroff.

So it all comes down to the terrible blunder in game 2. This happened in a favourable position. If we hadn't seen this I very much doubt that Kramnik would have lost that last game. 

If Kramnik instead had won from his better position in game 2 we could have seen an entirely different outcome from the match.

So it clearly isn't as 4-2 as it looks.
  
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JEH
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Re: Kramnik-Fritz
Reply #88 - 12/05/06 at 21:06:21
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Keano wrote on 12/05/06 at 14:49:37:
So Fritz went Re1-e3-g3 pretty crude!


What was behind this move? Was it in its opening book, or is it now showing the way for us to shove our rooks around like patzers.

I seems a good anti-human move as it must have wrecked Kramniks pattern recognition. 

Yikes! The machines are playing mind games now  Shocked

Quote:
It became self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th.
In a panic, they tried to pull the plug...


Breaking news ... Next release of Deep Fritz is to be given a new look ...



  
Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Antillian
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Re: Kramnik-Fritz
Reply #87 - 12/05/06 at 20:37:43
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Dear fellow humanoids,

I am afraid it is all over for us. Our reign of dominance on this earth is over. 

Cry  Cry  Cry
  
"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Re: Kramnik-Fritz
Reply #86 - 12/05/06 at 18:43:40
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Keano wrote on 12/05/06 at 17:38:18:
the whole thing still leaves me cold. If this is machine chess then I have no time for it, or for watching any more of these type of matches - nobody can tell me that was good chess today.


I quite agree, and I am very disapointed with Kramnik, he could hardly have done any worse if he hadn't prepared for the match at all. Just as well for him that he wasn't playing one of the stronger machines! Grin
  
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Keano
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Re: Kramnik-Fritz
Reply #85 - 12/05/06 at 18:07:26
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Maybe John - one thing I agree with Fritz about was not comitting his pawns. His other moves are too "Deep" for me (sorry). We will have to have a seriously look at this R-e1-e3-g3 business and see how credible it is... Could be everyone will start playing it now!
  
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Re: Kramnik-Fritz
Reply #84 - 12/05/06 at 17:43:36
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I know what you mean. But it's possible, isn't it, that what we find is aesthetic is simply weak play? That's often quoted as the reason we like Capa's games so much - his opponents had no clue and thus he could demonstrate his ideas easily.
  
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Keano
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Re: Kramnik-Fritz
Reply #83 - 12/05/06 at 17:38:18
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Well, if Fritz does go on to win this (which I suppose is not a banker yet) the whole thing still leaves me cold. If this is machine chess then I have no time for it, or for watching any more of these type of matches - nobody can tell me that was good chess today. I´m going home now to cheer myself up by playing through some Paul Morphy games  Wink
  
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Re: Kramnik-Fritz
Reply #82 - 12/05/06 at 17:27:33
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I wonder what the idea of ...Qb7 was? I hadn't exactly observed it left ...a4 en prise.

Susan P thinks White's just winning, I see. Well, I expect she's right.
  
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Re: Kramnik-Fritz
Reply #81 - 12/05/06 at 17:20:32
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Curious comment of Susie P - Black often plays ....g6 in this type of Sicilian position, surely? I refer her to Gller-Korchnoi, candidates, 1971, for a start.

I hesitate to say either way, but if I were told Black is much better, I wouldn't be amazed. If White has no threats on the kingside then why are his queen and rook where they are? And I don't see these threats, although that frequently happens shortly before I get mated. Is Kramnik setting up for ...Rxb2, I wonder?
  
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Keano
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Re: Kramnik-Fritz
Reply #80 - 12/05/06 at 16:38:54
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Just on a more abstract higher level comment, although I think I disagree with just about every move Fritz has made except the Nb1 move, the fact he has not committed his kingside pawns means there is not the weaknesses for Black to exploit that used to lead to so many Sicilian victories in the past. These days a lot of open-sicilian lines for White he refrains from f4 and g4, although there are of course positions where this strategy is close to winning.

  
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Re: Kramnik-Fritz
Reply #79 - 12/05/06 at 16:02:54
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Quote:
This is game is well strange - without knowing the players you'd think we had a couple of patzers playing !

It kinda looks like they are looking for worse spots for their pieces indeed.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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ANDREW BRETT
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Re: Kramnik-Fritz
Reply #78 - 12/05/06 at 15:56:28
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This is game is well strange - without knowing the players you'd think we had a couple of patzers playing !
  
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Re: Kramnik-Fritz
Reply #77 - 12/05/06 at 15:31:30
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An interesting start.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bc4 e6 7.0–0 Be7 8.Bb3 Qc7 9.Re1 Nc6 10.Re3 0–0 11.Rg3 Kh8 12.Nxc6 bxc6 13.Qe2 a5 14.Bg5 Ba6 15.Qf3

I wonder if Kramnik's 8...Qc7 was played to get Fritz out of book early.  If so, then Fritz's crude Re1-e3-g3 maneuver is what Kramnik gained from this ploy.

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r4r1k/2q1bppp/b1pppn2/p5B...
                       after 15.Qf3

15...Rab8 16.Re1 c5

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=1r3r1k/2q1bppp/b2ppn2/p1p...
                       after 16...c5

Kramnik seems to be doing OK.  If Fritz cannot make anything of its kingside demonstration, Black might actually come out of this with a nice advantage.

Update:

17.Bf4 Qb7 18.Bc1 Ng8 19.Nb1 Bf6 20.c3 g6?! 21.Na3 Qc6 22.Rh3 Bg7 23.Qg3 a4 24.Bc2 Rb6

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=5rnk/5pbp/brqpp1p1/2p5/p3...
                       after 24...Rb6

20...g6 seems like an unnecessary weakening, giving White a focal point for a kingside attack.

Susan Polgar is not optimistic (to say the least!) of Kramnik's chances after this move:

from http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/ Quote:
20.c3 g6 (I do not like this move. The rule is never weaken your pawns unless you have to. This is an important rule as Black defending with the Sicilian. Black was doing fine until now.)

21.Na3 (Kramnik was doing fine until 20...g6. Now, I do like White better. It is still not lost but White has a more comfortable position with a potential attack on the Kingside.)

21...Qc6 22.Rh3 Bg7 23.Qg3 (Black's position is quite unpleasant. I do not expect a blunder from Fritz in this position and I see no chances for Black to win unless there is a machine malfunction.)


25.e5 dxe5 26.Rxe5 Nf6 27.Qh4 

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=5r1k/5pbp/brq1pnp1/2p1R3/...
                       after 27.Qh4

Looks like Kramnik is in trouble!

27...Qb7 28.Re1 h5 29.Rf3 Nh7 30.Qxa4 Qc6 31.Qxc6 (some observers on the PlayChess server were hoping for 31.Qh4 here) 30...Rxc6

Kramnik simply a pawn down w.o. compensation as near as I can tell.  I doubt he has much hope of holding a draw here.
« Last Edit: 12/05/06 at 17:34:07 by OstapBender »  
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Keano
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Re: Kramnik-Fritz
Reply #76 - 12/05/06 at 14:53:52
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Well now Fritz took on c6 - I dont know. Humans, or me anyway, would never play like this - if nothing else because the Russian GM´s would get together in one of their group talks to have a laugh at me and make sure to distract me doing it.
  
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Keano
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Re: Kramnik-Fritz
Reply #75 - 12/05/06 at 14:49:37
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So Fritz went Re1-e3-g3 pretty crude! Why not just something like ...Kh8 from Kramnik now - where is the attack for White? To my mind there cannot really be any without pushing some pawns
  
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