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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) QID 4.e3 (Read 20927 times)
Bonsai
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Re: QID 4.e3
Reply #18 - 07/27/10 at 18:40:39
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Regarding the Nc3-e2-f4-d3 plan (with Bd3-b1 at some point). When preparing for a game today I came across the following game:

Bykov, Alexe (2272)
Kornev, Alexei (2523)
Vladimir Open A 2008

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 b6 4. e3 Bb7 5. Bd3 d5 6. cxd5 exd5 7. O-O Bd6 8. Nc3 O-O 9. b3 a6 10. Bb2 Nbd7 11. Rc1 Qe7 12. Ne2 Ne4 13. Bb1 g5
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His 13...g5 simply prevents Ne2-f4 and at the same time plays a move that black wants to play anyway sooner or later. This looks like a really good idea to me.
14. Qc2 Rac8 15.Ng3 f5 16. Rfe1 Rf7 17. Re2 Re8 18. Qd1 g4 19. Nd2 h5 20. Ndxe4 fxe4 21. Rec2 Qg5 22. Rxc7 Bxc7 23. Rxc7 Nf8 24. Rxf7 Kxf7 25. Ba3 Ng6 26. Ne2 Qf6 27. Qd2 Rc8 28. Bc2 Qc6 29. Bd1 Qb5 30. Nc1 a5 31. h3 gxh3 32. Bxh5 Qf1+ 33. Kxf1 h2 34. Bxg6+ Kxg6 35. f4 h1=Q+ 36. Kf2 Ba6 37. Ne2 Bd3 38. Ng3 Qb1 39. Bc5 bxc5 40. Qxa5 Qc2+ 41. Kg1 Qc1+ 42. Kf2 cxd4 43. f5+ Kh7 0-1
rooksway18 wrote on 04/18/10 at 17:05:31:
What Palliser book is being referred to regarding the Queen's Indian with 4.e3?

His "Play 1.d4!" book.
  
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Bonsai
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Re: QID 4.e3
Reply #17 - 07/27/10 at 08:38:37
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HgMan wrote on 06/07/08 at 15:22:32:
castlerock wrote on 09/17/07 at 10:55:31:
There is another standard plan involving Rc1,Ne2,Bb1,Nf4,Nd3 and Nfe5. Though the plan appears slow it is in fact very effective OTB. I even posted some games in Palliser’s book thread (I think). I’ll repost the games later.



One of the games that Castlerock posted was:

[Event "Regensburg op"]
[Site "Regensburg"]
[Date "1996.01.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Piskov,Yury"]
[Black "Hohner,Karl Heinz"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "E14"]
1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 b6 4.e3 Bb7 5.Bd3 d5 6.cxd5 exd5 7.Nc3 a6 8.0-0 Bd6 9.b3 0-0 10.Bb2 Nbd7 11.Rc1 Qe7 12.Ne2 Ne4 13.Bb1 Rac8 14.Nf4 Rfd8 15.Nd3 c5 16.Nfe5 Nxe5 17.Nxe5 f6 18.Bxe4 dxe4 19.Nc4 b5 20.Nxd6 Rxd6 21.Qg4 Qd7 22.Qf4 c4 23.Ba3 Re6 24.bxc4 bxc4 25.Bc5 Bd5 26.h4 Ree8 27.Rb1 Qc7 28.Qxc7 Rxc7 29.Rfc1 Rec8 30.a3 Rc6 31.Kf1 Kf7 32.Ke2 Ke6 33.Kd2 h5 34.Kc3 g5 35.Rh1 g4 36.g3 Kd7 37.Rb4 Ra8 38.Rhb1 Rcc8 39.Rb6  1-0

A couple of notes:  Instead of 17...f6, Black might have tried 17...Bxe5, removing both of White's knights from central squares.  It seems a shame to give up the bishop to do so, but I would imagine that Black is at least equal here.  Secondly, in the game, 19...b5 looks like a mistake: White gets the bishop as in my previous suggestion, but without weakening his central pawns.  19...Bc7 looks very good for Black: White's knight is now on the wrong side of the board to attack or defend and White's pieces seem to lack harmony.  Black enjoys the bishop pair and both bishops are pointing happily at White's king position.  Surely ...f6-f5-f4 is in the offing with an attack.

I don't think this refutes White's plan, which does look very good, and I would need to compare the game above with the other efforts the Castlerock posted, but I think Black has resources here...

In this position is it not perhaps better to actually keep the bishop (and only then play b5 as in the game), e.g.:
19. Nc4 Bc7 20. Qg4 b5 21.Nd2 Bb6 22. dxc5 Rxc5 23. Rxc5 Bxc5 24. Rd1 Qd7 25. Qxd7 Rxd7, which actually looks very nice for black.

Oh, and in Biel last year Piskov took me apart with yet another interpretation of the e3 QID. Perhaps that's an easy way to take some weaker players out of theory, get an IQP position and then hack away at their king...
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 b6 4. e3 Bb7 5. Bd3 d5 6. cxd5 exd5 7. Qa4+ c6 8. O-O Bd6 9. Nc3 O-O 10. e4 dxe4 11. Nxe4 Be7 12. Nxf6+ Bxf6 13. Rd1 Nd7 14. Bf4 g6 15. Rac1 c5 16. Ne5 Bg5 17. Nxf7 Rxf7 18. Bc4 Nf8 19. dxc5 Qf6 20. Bxf7+ Kxf7 21. Bxg5 Qxg5 22. c6 Bc8 23. h4 Qe7 24. Rc3 Be6 25. Qf4+ Kg8 26. c7 Rc8 27. h5 Bf7 28. h6 Ne6 29. Qe5 Rxc7 30. Rd6 Rxc3 31. bxc3 b5 32. a3 Qe8 33. Rxe6 1-0
  
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rooksway18
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Re: QID 4.e3
Reply #16 - 04/18/10 at 17:05:31
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Hi,

Please consider a few questions I have on this topic and my recent game:

What Palliser book is being referred to regarding the Queen's Indian with 4.e3?

I recently won a game featuring this opening against a long time master at our club. Black's 6...d5, which I thought seemed premature, was once used by Nigel Short, but isn't in any of my books and is rarely played. The issue of move order with ...c5, ...d5, and where white should place his b1 knight comes into question.

[Event ""]
[Site ""]
[Date "2010.4.8"]
[Round ""]
[White "Mario Amodeo"]
[Black "Tood Smith"]

[Result "1-0"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 c5 4.Bd3 b6 5.O-O Bb7 6.c4 d5 7.cxd5 exd5 8.b3
Be7 9.Bb2 O-O 10.Nbd2 Nc6 11.Ne5 Rc8 12.Ndf3 Nb4 13.Bb1 c4 14.a3 Na6
15.bxc4 dxc4 16.Bc3 b5 17.Nh4 Be4 18.Nf5 g6 19.Nxe7+ Qxe7 20.f3 Bxb1
21.Qxb1 Rb8 22.e4 Qb7 23.Qb2 Nd7 24.d5 Nxe5 25.Bxe5 Qb6+ 26.Bd4 Nc5
27.Qf2 Rbc8 28.Kh1 Qd6 29.Ra2 a6 30.Bc3 Nd3 31.Qd4 f6 32.Rd1 Qc5 33.Qxc5
Nxc5 34.Bb4 Rfd8 35.Bxc5 Rxc5 36.Kg1 Kf7 37.Kf2 Ke7 38.Ke3 Kd6 39.Rc2 a5
40.Kd4 Rdc8 41.Rdc1 Rb8 42.f4 Re8 43.Rc3 Rc7 44.Re3 Rec8 45.e5+ fxe5+
46.fxe5+ Kd7 47.Rf3 b4 48.Rcf1 Re8 49.Rf7+ Kd8 50.axb4 axb4 51.e6 c3
52.Rxc7 Kxc7 53.Kc5 c2 54.d6+ Kd8 55.Kd5 Rh8 56.Ra1 Kc8 57.Kc6 Kb8 58.d7
*



After 6...d5:







10.Nc3, by transposition, seems more common than my 10.Nbd2. Perhaps the idea is Ne2-Nf4 to pressure d5, as mentioned in an earlier post?

After 11.Ne5:


Would 11...Nb4 have perhaps been a way for black to simplify? Not that my higher rated opponent wanted a draw at this point.



Black's 17...Be4 let me get active with 18.Nf5. I guess he didn't want to weaken his king with 17...g6.

After 18.Nf5:

The white center pawns are about to roll forward.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: 04/19/10 at 02:54:40 by rooksway18 »  
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sssthepro
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Re: QID 4.e3
Reply #15 - 06/13/08 at 08:02:50
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HgMan wrote on 06/07/08 at 15:22:32:
castlerock wrote on 09/17/07 at 10:55:31:
There is another standard plan involving Rc1,Ne2,Bb1,Nf4,Nd3 and Nfe5. Though the plan appears slow it is in fact very effective OTB. I even posted some games in Palliser’s book thread (I think). I’ll repost the games later.



One of the games that Castlerock posted was:

[Event "Regensburg op"]
[Site "Regensburg"]
[Date "1996.01.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Piskov,Yury"]
[Black "Hohner,Karl Heinz"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "E14"]
1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 b6 4.e3 Bb7 5.Bd3 d5 6.cxd5 exd5 7.Nc3 a6 8.0-0 Bd6 9.b3 0-0 10.Bb2 Nbd7 11.Rc1 Qe7 12.Ne2 Ne4 13.Bb1 Rac8 14.Nf4 Rfd8 15.Nd3 c5 16.Nfe5 Nxe5 17.Nxe5 f6 18.Bxe4 dxe4 19.Nc4 b5 20.Nxd6 Rxd6 21.Qg4 Qd7 22.Qf4 c4 23.Ba3 Re6 24.bxc4 bxc4 25.Bc5 Bd5 26.h4 Ree8 27.Rb1 Qc7 28.Qxc7 Rxc7 29.Rfc1 Rec8 30.a3 Rc6 31.Kf1 Kf7 32.Ke2 Ke6 33.Kd2 h5 34.Kc3 g5 35.Rh1 g4 36.g3 Kd7 37.Rb4 Ra8 38.Rhb1 Rcc8 39.Rb6  1-0

A couple of notes:  Instead of 17...f6, Black might have tried 17...Bxe5, removing both of White's knights from central squares.  It seems a shame to give up the bishop to do so, but I would imagine that Black is at least equal here.  Secondly, in the game, 19...b5 looks like a mistake: White gets the bishop as in my previous suggestion, but without weakening his central pawns.  19...Bc7 looks very good for Black: White's knight is now on the wrong side of the board to attack or defend and White's pieces seem to lack harmony.  Black enjoys the bishop pair and both bishops are pointing happily at White's king position.  Surely ...f6-f5-f4 is in the offing with an attack.

I don't think this refutes White's plan, which does look very good, and I would need to compare the game above with the other efforts the Castlerock posted, but I think Black has resources here...



What about ideas like Ne1 followed by f3, planning for the advance e4?
  
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Re: QID 4.e3
Reply #14 - 06/10/08 at 17:33:27
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Well, it is at least better/more interesting for White than the normal ...d5/...Bd6 line.  Whether it is really that good is another matter!  5 ...Be7 should transpose and is ok, but IMO it is not something white should be worried about facing.
  
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Re: QID 4.e3
Reply #13 - 06/10/08 at 16:22:51
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It does/is indeed.  Though I can't say it's clear to me that 5. Nc3 d5 6. cd ed (I suppose 6...Nxd5 gives White a sort of favorable Petrosian QID) 7. Bb5+ c6 8. Bd3 should favor White.  (Karpov has played 8...Be7 there several times, and ECO gives the line as equal, citing his game against Gelfand.)  I would also wonder about 5...Be7, with the idea of 6. Bd3 d5 (entering another old standard branch of the 4. e3 QID) or 6. d5 Bb4.
  
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Re: QID 4.e3
Reply #12 - 06/10/08 at 15:32:27
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"Forces" was perhaps too strong a word!

My point was that against the normal 5 Bd3 the following are considered to be black's best defences:

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 b6 4 e3 Bb7 5 Bd3 d5 followed by ...Bd6 e.g. 6 cxd5 exd5 7 O-O Bd6 as discussed by HgMan

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 b6 4 e3 Bb7 5 Bd3 c5 6 O-O and now both 6...g6!? and the risky 6...Be7 7 Nc3 cxd4 (7...O-O?! 8 d5!) 8 exd4 d5 are theoretically doing well

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 b6 4 e3 Bb7 5 Bd3 Bb4+ 6 Nbd2 (again 6 Nc3 transposes to the Rubinstein Nimzo).  This is still a viable defence for black against 5 Nc3 of course.

The point is now that:

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 b6 4 e3 Bb7 5 Nc3 d5 6 cxd5 exd5 7 Bb5+! c6 8 Bd3 is an improved version since the blunting of the Bb7 makes ...Ne4 harder to handle.  Still not a complete disaster, but enough to favour white. 8...Bd6 9 O-O O-O 10 e4 or 9...Nbd7 10 e4 also score well.

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 b6 4 e3 Bb7 5 Nc3 c5 is now just a good Benoni for white after 6 d5!, most likely transposing to the 7 O-O 8 d5! line in the first note above.

So white avoids black's best lines in the 4 e3 QID, although for me the 4 e3 b6 5 Nf3 Nimzo lines are not that great for white IMHO.

On a related note, in a NiC YB some years ago Igor Stohl sent a letter to the forum talking about how he used to favour the 5 Bd3 c5 6 0-0 g6 line but had been put off by 6 Nc3!? since 6...g6 7 d5! is good for white again.  Yrjöla + Tella (and I think Wells also) give 6...cxd4 7 exd4 Bb4 as equalising, but I don't think either mentioned that 8 O-O O-O 9 Na4!? is another direct transposition to the Rubinstein Nimzo. (1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 e3 b6 5 Bd3 Bb7 6 Nf3 O-O 7 O-O c5 8 Na4 cxd4 9 exd4).

Hope this helps and is of interest  Smiley
  
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Re: QID 4.e3
Reply #11 - 06/09/08 at 16:54:26
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Quote:
One thing I have noticed is that a couple of the most regular 4 e3 users over the past few years (Chatalbashev and Malaniuk) don't actually play it as a Pantu5.  i.e. after:

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 b6 4 e3 Bb7 they tend to play 5 Nc3 more or less forcing 5...Bb4 with a transposition to the 4 e3 b6 5 Nf3 Nimzo.  I assume the benefit is this hugely cuts down on what white needs to know,  and if Black doesn't play 4...b6 against the Rubinstein he can be rather on his own!


Why does that more or less force 5...Bb4?
  
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Re: QID 4.e3
Reply #10 - 06/09/08 at 15:41:41
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One thing I have noticed is that a couple of the most regular 4 e3 users over the past few years (Chatalbashev and Malaniuk) don't actually play it as a QID.  i.e. after:

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 b6 4 e3 Bb7 they tend to play 5 Nc3 more or less forcing 5...Bb4 with a transposition to the 4 e3 b6 5 Nf3 Nimzo.  I assume the benefit is this hugely cuts down on what white needs to know,  and if Black doesn't play 4...b6 against the Rubinstein he can be rather on his own!
  
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Re: QID 4.e3
Reply #9 - 06/09/08 at 12:01:18
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The 4 e3 system against the QID has been played as White by many super-GMs over the years, such as Keres, Spassky, Petrosian, Karpov and Portisch. Black's resources are surely adequate but 4 e3 is far from harmless, since it can test each player's understanding of the typical middle games that tend to arise.

There is some useful coverage of it in the new book The Art of attacking Chess by GM Zenon Franco in chapter 5 "Horwitz Bishops".

Franco annotates the games:
Spassky-Tal, Montreal 1979
Spassky-Sigurjonsson, Munich 1979
Keres-Spassky, Gothenburg 1955
Gulko-Ehlvest, Horgen 1995.

Franco discusses ideas for both sides, move orders and the main variables regarding piece placement: White's queen's knight (d2 or c3?) and Black's king's bishop (e7 or d6?) and queen's knight (d7 or c6?).
  
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Re: QID 4.e3
Reply #8 - 06/07/08 at 15:22:32
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castlerock wrote on 09/17/07 at 10:55:31:
There is another standard plan involving Rc1,Ne2,Bb1,Nf4,Nd3 and Nfe5. Though the plan appears slow it is in fact very effective OTB. I even posted some games in Palliser’s book thread (I think). I’ll repost the games later.



One of the games that Castlerock posted was:

[Event "Regensburg op"]
[Site "Regensburg"]
[Date "1996.01.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Piskov,Yury"]
[Black "Hohner,Karl Heinz"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "E14"]
1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 b6 4.e3 Bb7 5.Bd3 d5 6.cxd5 exd5 7.Nc3 a6 8.0-0 Bd6 9.b3 0-0 10.Bb2 Nbd7 11.Rc1 Qe7 12.Ne2 Ne4 13.Bb1 Rac8 14.Nf4 Rfd8 15.Nd3 c5 16.Nfe5 Nxe5 17.Nxe5 f6 18.Bxe4 dxe4 19.Nc4 b5 20.Nxd6 Rxd6 21.Qg4 Qd7 22.Qf4 c4 23.Ba3 Re6 24.bxc4 bxc4 25.Bc5 Bd5 26.h4 Ree8 27.Rb1 Qc7 28.Qxc7 Rxc7 29.Rfc1 Rec8 30.a3 Rc6 31.Kf1 Kf7 32.Ke2 Ke6 33.Kd2 h5 34.Kc3 g5 35.Rh1 g4 36.g3 Kd7 37.Rb4 Ra8 38.Rhb1 Rcc8 39.Rb6  1-0

A couple of notes:  Instead of 17...f6, Black might have tried 17...Bxe5, removing both of White's knights from central squares.  It seems a shame to give up the bishop to do so, but I would imagine that Black is at least equal here.  Secondly, in the game, 19...b5 looks like a mistake: White gets the bishop as in my previous suggestion, but without weakening his central pawns.  19...Bc7 looks very good for Black: White's knight is now on the wrong side of the board to attack or defend and White's pieces seem to lack harmony.  Black enjoys the bishop pair and both bishops are pointing happily at White's king position.  Surely ...f6-f5-f4 is in the offing with an attack.

I don't think this refutes White's plan, which does look very good, and I would need to compare the game above with the other efforts the Castlerock posted, but I think Black has resources here...
  

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Re: QID 4.e3
Reply #7 - 09/20/07 at 12:51:39
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Can I know which Palliser thread that is? Thanks.
  
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Re: QID 4.e3
Reply #6 - 09/17/07 at 15:01:36
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HgMan,

FWIW here are the games. Attached as a pgn file.

  

QID4e3.pgn ( 3 KB | Downloads )

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Re: QID 4.e3
Reply #5 - 09/17/07 at 10:55:31
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HgMan wrote on 05/23/07 at 02:26:33:
1.d4 Nf6 2.e3 e6 3.Nf3 b6 4.c4 Bb7 5.Bd3 d5 6.cxd5 exd5 7.O-O Bd6 8.Nc3 O-O 9.b3 Nbd7 10.Bb2 a6 11.Nh4 g6 12.Nf3 Qe7 13.a4 Ne4 14.Qc2 f5 15.Ne2 g5 16.Nd2 Rae8 17.Rae1 Qf6 18.f4 g4 19.Ng3 Nxg3 20.hxg3 Nb8 21.Kf2 Nc6 22.Bc3 Rf7 23.Rh1 Nb4 24.Bxb4 Bxb4 25.Rh5 Bc8 26.Reh1 c5 27.dxc5 Bxc5 28.Nf1 Rc7 29.Qd2 d4 30.Kg1 dxe3 31.Qe2 Qd4 32.Kh2 Kh8 33.Bxf5 Bxf5 34.Rxf5 Rd7 35.Nxe3 Qxe3 36.Qxg4 Rg7 37.Qf3 Reg8 38.Qxe3 Bxe3

Thoughts on how White might improve?


Sorry for posting this late. I’m basically coming out of hibernation. Instead of 11.Nh4. There is another standard plan involving Rc1,Ne2,Bb1,Nf4,Nd3 and Nfe5. Though the plan appears slow it is in fact very effective OTB. I even posted some games in Palliser’s book thread (I think). I’ll repost the games later.


  

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Re: QID 4.e3
Reply #4 - 05/24/07 at 09:44:46
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I was thinking maybe 8.b4 is a bit more active. And yes I dont like 11.Nh4 either.

I found an oldie for you:
[Event "Havana m"]
[Site "Havana"]
[Date "1890.??.??"]
[Round "18"]
[White "Gunsberg,Isidor"]
[Black "Chigorin,Mikhail"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "E14"]
1.e3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.c4 e6 4.Nc3 b6 5.Nf3 Bb7 6.b3 Nbd7 7.Bb2 Bd6 8.Bd3 a6
9.0-0 0-0 10.cxd5 exd5 11.Nh4 g6 12.g3 Re8 13.Re1 Ne4 14.Nxe4 dxe4 15.Be2 Qg5 16.Ng2 Nf6 17.Bc1 Rad8 18.Bd2 Bc8 19.b4 h5 20.Rc1 Ng4 21.Rf1 h4 22.gxh4 Bxh2+ 23.Kh1 Qh5 24.f4 exf3 25.Bxf3 Bd6 26.Qe1 Qf5 27.e4 Qe6 28.Bf4 Bxf4 29.Nxf4 Qd6 30.Bxg4 Bxg4 31.Nd5 Bf5 32.Rxf5 gxf5 33.Qg1+ Kf8 34.Qg5 Rxe4 35.Nf6 Re6 36.Nh7+ Ke8 37.Qg8+ Kd7 38.Qxf7+ Qe7 39.Qxe7+ Rxe7 40.Ng5 Rh8 41.Nf3 Re2 42.Rg1 Ke6 43.Rg5 Rf2 44.Rg3 f4 45.Rh3 Kf5 46.Kg1 Rxa2 47.Ne5 Rg8+ 48.Kf1 Rgg2 49.Rd3 Rgb2 50.Rd1 f3 51.Nxf3 Rf2+ 52.Kg1 Rxf3 53.d5 Kg4 54.d6 cxd6 55.Rxd6 Kh3 0-1
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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