kylemeister wrote on 06/28/18 at 03:32:30:


Ah yes, I should have mentioned that one. All these three 4th moves are favorites of John Watson's and covered in Play the French, both the 3rd and 4th editions (I don't have the earlier ones).

Must be a good idea for Black to have one of these in his repertoire, since they all lead to different play from what White is usally after in the KIA.

Btw. Watson seems quite unimpressed by the 4.g3 move order, and I think I agree. 4.Ngf3 must be the better try surely.

RdC wrote on 06/27/18 at 18:57:40:

Cool plan. I have never looked at g4 in these positions. But it's a move that crops up in all kinds of openings these days. I guess this would actually be a White Lion!

VGA wrote on 06/28/18 at 00:42:30:

McDonald could probably have given the more flexible move order 1.e4 e6 2.d3 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.Ngf3 instead without losing any important options; waiting one more move with g3 to see if the bishop may be more useful elsewhere. Then 4...c5 and 4...Be7 can be confidently met with 5.g3. But 4...Nc6!? and 4...b6 are more sneaky, retaining options of ...e5 and/or ...Bc5. Both are very decent defences to the KIA.

VGA wrote on 06/28/18 at 00:42:30:

I've been looking at the KIA vs the French myself, and would love to make 2.d3 d5 3.Qe2 work. But the tempo-losing ...e6-e5 is a problem here too: 3...Nc6!? 4.Nf3 dxe4 5.dxe4 e5. Now 6.c3 and 7.Qc2 to get the bishop outside the blocked e4 pawn is probably best but nothing special for White - it's just a game. 3...Nc6 4.Nf3 d4 with a weird reversed King's Indian is also possible.

Starting with 2.Qe2 is an option, hoping to avoid or gain different options against these defences with ...e6-e5 and no ...c5 from Black.

kylemeister wrote on 06/27/18 at 19:20:03:


An engine claims 7. Nxe5 as playable and a very small edge. No games in practice though.

The Vasiukov - Tal game is or perhaps was well known. It's in Ray Keene's Flank Openings as one of the few games to demonstrate that the KIA isn't a forced win. 

VGA wrote on 06/27/18 at 15:48:51:


You can in fact change plans and play Nf3 and the Bishop out to b5. I don't know whether Macdonald recommends this.

With an early dxe4 and .. e5, the other plan for White is not to fianchetto at all, but to play c3 and Be2. Playing a reverse Philidor is hardly the most aggressive of openings even with an extra tempo or two unless you spice it up by not castling, but playing Rg1 and g4 instead. 

I am reading the first chapter of Neil McDonald's KIA Move by Move game. This chapter is versus the French, the author states the KIA is good when Black has played e6 because he loses tempo if he plays e5 later.

So he suggests 1. e4 e6 2.d3 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.g3

OK what if Black simply exchanges on e4?  4. ...dxe4 5. dxe4
Then Black plays 5. ...e5!
Now what? White has played g3 already, he has to fianchetto on g2 and have a bad blocked in bishop while Black has space, easy development and castles 1 move earlier, too. Ehhhh? Where is my tempo advantage? I am playing White and he lost a tempo supposedly moving his e-pawn twice.

Granted : London seems to cover a lot of openigns based on d4/Bf4/Nf3 etc. Therefor London System seems to be the most appropriate name to me...
But that was not the point, but this : the NYD is not that terrible to meet, in fact White scores above average with 4. b3 and 4. d3.

MNB, it is not a reversed London as long as White does not play x. d4. 
And white does have some viable other options which do not score too badly...   
After all the KIA (A07-A08) is just a variation within the Reti (A04 up till A09)...

I think you sum up the options well, JEH.

Dunnington, yeah -- but after looking at his Reversed Pirc-style suggestion in some detail I concluded it's anodyne indeed. I think which option a player adopts must be guided principally by the highly subjective/personal matter of which other openings they know and find congenial. As someone who plays the Reti and is learning the English I'm tempted myself by 2 c4, but for the latter I don't necessarily want my KN on f3.

In your option (2) maybe a sound but rarer, less theory-intensive anti-Chigorin is an idea -- say 3 Bf4 or 3 g3.