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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) King's Indian Attack (Read 19094 times)
XChess1971
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #45 - 08/06/19 at 01:46:05
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/05/19 at 00:04:45:
It was only 5 ...Be7 6 c4 Nf6 I was worried about. I don't immediately see strengths in this Reversed Maroczy with 7 cd Nd5 8 Nc3: after 8 ...Be6 how does White play for advantage? I'd actually prefer 7 Bg5, which perhaps I underestimated -- that looks a decent enough try perhaps to make a KIA player not worry about the occasional 5 ...Be7.

Any thoughts, anyone, on the lines I gave above?


After 8...Be6 9.Ng5!? is typical of the Sicilian Dragon! In the Accelerated Dragon there is an idea of playing at some point Nxd5 and a4 of course with black. You need to look into those positions yourself.
After 8.Nc3 we are in a line of the English Opening I believe.
Also you would need to read the Maroczy with black in the Accelerated Dragon so that you can apply those ideas with white. You can't expect to be told everything in here. You have to do your homework.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #44 - 08/05/19 at 00:04:45
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It was only 5 ...Be7 6 c4 Nf6 I was worried about. I don't immediately see strengths in this Reversed Maroczy with 7 cd Nd5 8 Nc3: after 8 ...Be6 how does White play for advantage? I'd actually prefer 7 Bg5, which perhaps I underestimated -- that looks a decent enough try perhaps to make a KIA player not worry about the occasional 5 ...Be7.

Any thoughts, anyone, on the lines I gave above?
  
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XChess1971
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #43 - 08/04/19 at 01:49:54
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kylemeister wrote on 08/03/19 at 04:51:32:
By the way, a bit of a coincidence: the reversed version of 6. c4 d4 7. e3 Nf6 8. ed ed (both versions are old book lines) appears in the most recent (June) Nimzo/Benoni update.


Seliverstov, V - Pantsulaia, L looks interesting to apply with opposite color and one more tempo!
  
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XChess1971
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #42 - 08/03/19 at 21:28:25
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I also forgot 5.d3 Nf6 6,Bg5 Be7 7.Nfd2 threatening Bxf6 and Nc3 putting pressure on d5 (Carlsen-Karjakin Blitz) Ng8 8.Bxe7 Ngxe7 9.c4 if I am not wrong. Also 5.d3 Nf6 6.c4 is an option. On 5.d3 f5 you can play 6.c4 (The 4 Pawn Attack Reversed with an extra tempo!). On this last one 6.e4 should be playable like the Belov Variation against the 4 Pawn Attack on the KID.
You need to know different structures and setups. It is not about scoring well or not. A whole bunch of people could be misplaying it. And it doesn't mean it is bad. If you want to play the KIA you need to know the ideas on the KID, The Modern Benoni and the Benko Gambit also.
« Last Edit: 08/04/19 at 01:33:21 by XChess1971 »  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #41 - 08/03/19 at 04:51:32
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By the way, a bit of a coincidence: the reversed version of 6. c4 d4 7. e3 Nf6 8. ed ed (both versions are old book lines) appears in the most recent (June) Nimzo/Benoni update.
  
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XChess1971
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #40 - 08/03/19 at 03:00:12
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/02/19 at 12:55:52:
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I'm not so keen on the c4 option for white simply because with the knight on c6 and not having played ....e6 black can play ....e5 in one move

In general I agree, but the Réti after 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 Bg2 Nc6 4 0-0 e5 5 c4 d4 6 d3 hasn't scored badly for White?

Below are some further (rather inchoate!) thoughts on other ways White might play after 5 d3 Be7!?. All comments welcome!

I   6 a3 and:

(a) 6 …Nf6 and:

(i) 7 c3 0-0 (7 ...a5 8 a4 0-0 9 Na3 or 9 Bg5; 7 …Be6 8 b4) 8 b4 a6 9 Bg5 is at least a game?
(ii) 7 c4 0-0 (7 ...d4 8 b4) 8 Nc3 Be6, but this is just boring equality?

(b) 6 …Be6 7 c3 and:

(i) 7 …a5 8 a4 Nf6 9 e4 (9 Na3 0-0 10 e4 [10 ...d4 11 Ng5]) 0-0 (9…d4), with a 5 ...Nf6-like position
(ii) 7 …Nf6 8 b4 see a(i) above


II   6 c3 and:

(a) 6 …Nf6 7 Na3!? 0-0 8 e4, with a 5 ...Nf6-like position, e.g. 8 …d4 9 Nc4 Qc7 10 cd cd 11 Qc2

(b) 6 …Be6 7 a3 is Ib above


III   6 Na3 and:

(a) 6 …Nf6 and:

(i) 7 c3 is IIa
(ii) 7 e4 d4 8 Nc4 is an actual 5 ...Nf6 position (Piket’s suggestion 7 …Be6 hasn’t caught on)

(b) 6 …Be6 and:

(i) 7 e4 d4 (7 …Nf6 is a(ii) above) 8 Nc4 Qc7 (8 …Bf6!?), e.g. 9 a4 h5 10 h4 f6 11 c3 Nh6 12 Bd2
(ii) 7 c4 d4 (7 …Nf6 8 Ng5), but 8 Re1 Nf6 9 e3 0-0 10 ed ed 11 Bf4 is just a boringly equal Réti?


5.d3 is good enough. You do not define your structure and wait on black to see what he plays. If 5...Be7 you can play 6. c4 d4 7.e3 with the idea of exd4. You will have to consider the captures ...cxd4 like a Reversed Modern Benoni which is very good with an extra tempo. Or the recapture with ...exd4 which is kind of dull. Say 7...Nf6 8.exd4 exd4 9.Bf4 with the idea of Re1 with equality at least. But if you are looking for fun. It could be interesting 7.b4!? in case of 7...Nxb4 you play 8.Nxe5 opening the diagonal for your white bishop. Besides after a3 you will kick away the black knight and you will have the b column for you. Also in case of 7...cxb4 you can play 8.a3 like a Benko Gambit with Reversed colors. Keep in mind that after 6.c4 black might want to keep the tension with 6...Nf6 then you have the option of playing a Reversed Maroczy with 7.cxd5 Nxd5 8.Nc3 with an extra tempo. Even 7.Bg5 looks interesting. On 6...dxc4 7.Qa4 threatening Nxe5 should be more than OK. You even have the option of taking on c4 with the pawn after that and keep the queens on the board. After 7...Bd7 8.dxc4 Nd4 9.Qd1 Nxf3+ 10.Bxf3 you are much better placed.

Also you can play 6.e4, and in case of 6...dxe4 7.dxe4 Qxd1 8.Rxd1 you can practice this kind of ending. Like in many King's Indian Defense!

My experience with the KIA dates back from 1988. So things that before dogmatic people didn't want to play. It is played nowadays!  Grin
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #39 - 08/02/19 at 12:55:52
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Quote:
I'm not so keen on the c4 option for white simply because with the knight on c6 and not having played ....e6 black can play ....e5 in one move

In general I agree, but the Réti after 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 Bg2 Nc6 4 0-0 e5 5 c4 d4 6 d3 hasn't scored badly for White?

Below are some further (rather inchoate!) thoughts on other ways White might play after 5 d3 Be7!?. All comments welcome!

I   6 a3 and:

(a) 6 …Nf6 and:

(i) 7 c3 0-0 (7 ...a5 8 a4 0-0 9 Na3 or 9 Bg5; 7 …Be6 8 b4) 8 b4 a6 9 Bg5 is at least a game?
(ii) 7 c4 0-0 (7 ...d4 8 b4) 8 Nc3 Be6, but this is just boring equality?

(b) 6 …Be6 7 c3 and:

(i) 7 …a5 8 a4 Nf6 9 e4 (9 Na3 0-0 10 e4 [10 ...d4 11 Ng5]) 0-0 (9…d4), with a 5 ...Nf6-like position
(ii) 7 …Nf6 8 b4 see a(i) above


II   6 c3 and:

(a) 6 …Nf6 7 Na3!? 0-0 8 e4, with a 5 ...Nf6-like position, e.g. 8 …d4 9 Nc4 Qc7 10 cd cd 11 Qc2

(b) 6 …Be6 7 a3 is Ib above


III   6 Na3 and:

(a) 6 …Nf6 and:

(i) 7 c3 is IIa
(ii) 7 e4 d4 8 Nc4 is an actual 5 ...Nf6 position (Piket’s suggestion 7 …Be6 hasn’t caught on)

(b) 6 …Be6 and:

(i) 7 e4 d4 (7 …Nf6 is a(ii) above) 8 Nc4 Qc7 (8 …Bf6!?), e.g. 9 a4 h5 10 h4 f6 11 c3 Nh6 12 Bd2
(ii) 7 c4 d4 (7 …Nf6 8 Ng5), but 8 Re1 Nf6 9 e3 0-0 10 ed ed 11 Bf4 is just a boringly equal Réti?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #38 - 08/01/19 at 20:00:44
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Thanks, both. Will do a longer reply later, but yes, Black's kingside possibilities afforded by there being no Knight on f6 were what was concerning me, rightly or wrongly ...
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #37 - 08/01/19 at 19:57:26
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I have the impression that McDonald didn't address this 5...Be7 version, which can have independent significance.  (A couple of ancient book possiblities are 6. e4 d4 7. a4 g5 or 7. Nbd2 h5.)
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #36 - 08/01/19 at 18:43:19
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/01/19 at 12:37:42:
I'm keen to know what anyone might think White's best course after 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 Bg2 Nc6 4 0-0 (I'd normally go 4 d4) e5 5 d3 (I tend to prefer 5 c4) Be7. Does anything have any sting? I can't see any decent, let alone inspiring, line after 6 e4 d4, or 6 c4 Nf6. Sad Am I being too pessimistic?


Not sure whether you have access to McDonald's book on the KIA (published by Everyman 2014) but in chapter 4 he goes into some detail about the blocked centre with ....d4 after the e4 advance by white. Basically he feels that although black may have more space, like the KID white has a fairly clear plan to follow and generally has good chances.

He was more concerned about black maintaining the central tension by not advancing or exchanging the d pawn. His view was that this generally leads to white having to play exd5 sooner or later when whites plan and chances are a lot less clear. 

I'm not so keen on the c4 option for white simply because with the knight on c6 and not having played ....e6 black can play ....e5 in one move and I'm just not a fan of allowing black that extra tempo in the reversed Benoni.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #35 - 08/01/19 at 12:37:42
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I'm keen to know what anyone might think White's best course after 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 Bg2 Nc6 4 0-0 (I'd normally go 4 d4) e5 5 d3 (I tend to prefer 5 c4) Be7. Does anything have any sting? I can't see any decent, let alone inspiring, line after 6 e4 d4, or 6 c4 Nf6. Sad Am I being too pessimistic?
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #34 - 09/04/18 at 17:52:35
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Call me a cynic, but I don't have much hope for a publisher that provides a scanned excerpt.  Shocked Huh Undecided
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #33 - 09/04/18 at 13:44:26
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New Book on the KIA
https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/7874.pdf

It's advocating 2. d3 against everything, including 1. .. e5.

Personally I'd think it a little suspect except in 1. e4 e6 2. d3 and 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d3

Playing it on move 2 against the Sicilian discloses your intentions, so for example Black might respond 2. .. Nc6 which he might not be prepared to do after 1. d4 c5 2. Nf3 .
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #32 - 06/30/18 at 12:31:41
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MaxJudd wrote on 06/30/18 at 02:50:11:
A person starting with KIA vs. French is likely not going to be all that familiar with the unbalancing g5 lines in the Be7 Tarrasch unless they play that line as Black. 


I'd say it depends. Given that you can directly transpose, it's possible that a KIA player will have already met the line. Also .. g5 punts by Black aren't that unusual as attempts to break up the usual KIA structures and attack.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #31 - 06/30/18 at 02:50:11
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A person starting with KIA vs. French is likely not going to be all that familiar with the unbalancing g5 lines in the Be7 Tarrasch unless they play that line as Black.  This isn't to say that this Bc5 approach is objectively better but merely that it has some  practical advantages beyond the cheapo set up by the move against the autopilot 5 g3 (and this cheapo does sometimes payoff).
  
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