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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) King's Indian Attack (Read 59337 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #60 - 08/17/19 at 11:17:18
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Hi Michael, did you take a look at my suggestions of 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c5 3.Bg2 Nc6 and now either 4.d3 or 4.c4?

Apologies and thanks! I remember looking at this briefly before getting sidetracked by the succeeding flurry, and then going away for a few days and forgetting all about it!

4 c4 is of course possible just as is 4 d4 (even though after 4 c4 d4 Black achieves ...e5 in one move), but I was basically just speculating on trying out a KIA from time to time instead of my usual Reti. In what sense though does 4 d3 avoid the 5 ...Be7 line(s)? After 4 d3 e5 5 Nbd2 Be7, of course White could play 6 c4 here; but after 6 e4 instead, how can he usefully meet 6 ...d4 without transposing (7 0-0 g5 or h5) to 5 ...Be7 stuff anyway? Is, say, 7 Nc4 f6 8 a4 Bg4 substantially different? Of course I'm not suggesting Black's ...g5/...h5 ideas are necessarily advantageous for him, just that they could be an annoying danger!


  
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ErictheRed
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #59 - 08/12/19 at 14:32:35
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Hi Michael, did you take a look at my suggestions of 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c5 3.Bg2 Nc6 and now either 4.d3 or 4.c4?  I believe that they avoid the lines after 4.0-0 e5 5.d3 Be7 that you'd like to avoid.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #58 - 08/11/19 at 21:37:25
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Many thanks for the kind words, Stigma, Seeley, and sorry I didn’t say so earlier – was away and ‘out of it’ all last week (and will be again this, on holiday). Yes, tongue firmly in cheek! But hope not too ungentle. ‘Provocations’ on here are happily rare (last I can remember must have been well over a couple of years ago). They seem rarer than ever in fact, or is just that the number of posts is getting fewer?
  
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Seeley
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #57 - 08/08/19 at 00:20:42
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Without wishing to become in embroiled in a discussion that doesn't concern me, I would strongly endorse this observation

Stigma wrote on 08/07/19 at 22:03:24:
People sometimes come here and ask lots of questions without contributing anything themselves, and calling them out on that is only fair. But Michael Ayton is definitely not in that category

and I hope that

Michael Ayton wrote on 08/06/19 at 09:20:37:
Chastened, I’m sure!

is tongue-in-cheek.
  
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Stigma
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #56 - 08/07/19 at 22:03:24
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XChess1971 wrote on 08/07/19 at 07:10:33:

Stigma wrote on 08/07/19 at 02:38:52:
XChess1971 wrote on 08/07/19 at 01:35:19:
Michael Ayton wrote on 08/06/19 at 09:20:37:
Quote:
You can't expect to be told everything in here. You have to do your homework.

And here was me daring to hope that the moves, if not the thoughts, I’d tentatively suggested – the result of a bit of, you know, homework – might even be interesting to someone other than myself or spark a bit of useful discussion sometime. Chastened, I’m sure!


Well you might wanna do more homework about additional questions!

What's going on with the rude, confrontational attitude, XChess1971? If you haven't noticed, Michael Ayton has contributed a lot more to discussions in this forum over the years than you have.


Rude??? I can contribute nothing. And it doesn't make less than anybody. Isn't your comment rude?
I gave him some ideas on the KIA. Because I am an expert on the system. Nobody is willing to reveal anything at all today and even worse teach you things for free. I do not make one single penny out of chess.
But being around 1000 books. I guess it could help me a little bit. Besides experience.

It's great that you're contributing ideas and experience. I hope you keep doing that if and when you feel like it. But obviously that was not what I was criticizing; it was the unnecessarily crass comments about "doing your homework".

People sometimes come here and ask lots of questions without contributing anything themselves, and calling them out on that is only fair. But Michael Ayton is definitely not in that category, that was my point.

Quote:
Nobody is willing to reveal anything at all today and even worse teach you things for free.

There is at least one place online where people have been willing to share and collaborate on chess analysis even if it meant revealing some of their own secrets: This very ChessPub Forum. True, there is less of it now than a few years ago, but I for one hope that spirit doesn't die out completely.
« Last Edit: 08/08/19 at 01:26:08 by Stigma »  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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XChess1971
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #55 - 08/07/19 at 08:02:47
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/06/19 at 15:00:31:
Offhand I wonder whether, if White is intent on playing a King's Indian Attack instead of a reversed Grunfeld, he might not try 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c5 3.Bg2 Nc6 4.d3 instead of castling.  Then 4...e5 5.Nbd2 Nf6 6.e4, for instance.

Or 4.c4(!) appears to avoid the move order problems presented by 5...Be7 as well.  

Edit: By the way, I won an easy little 3-minute game with this 5...Be7 idea just now, though as you can see I reverted back to my known "Bishop to knight 5" comfort zone.

Edit 2: I don't know why my PGN insertion isn't working, but the game went

1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4. O-O e5 5. d3 Be7 6. e4 d4 7. a4 h5 8. h4 f6 9. Na3 Bg4 10. Nc4 Qd7 11. Bd2 O-O-O 12. Qc1 g5 13. hxg5 Bxf3 14. Bxf3 fxg5 15. Bxg5 h4 16. g4 Rf8 17. Be2 Nf6 18. f3 Nh5 19. Bxe7 Qxe7 20. gxh5 Qg7+ 21. Kh1 Qg3 22. Nd6+ Kb8 23. Rf2  Qxf2 24. Qf1 Qxf1+ 25. Rxf1 Rxh5 , etc. 


It looks like that 8.h4 move is bad. Now your possible reaction on f4 is no longer available due to weakness created. Especially that hole on g4. Also that h4 is now a breaking point. 8.c3 looks much better with the idea of taking on d4, play Na3 and Bd2. All of that looking for cxd4, Nc4 and a5. Or even after cxd4 cxd4 by putting the bishop on d2 you can play b4 in one shot due to the e5 defended only by the Nc6. Also another option is 8.Na3 to play quickly to c4. In your game white didn't do anything to try to get counterplay. That's why even you sacrificed a pawn on the king side to open him up. Unfortunately that move 12.Qc1 doesn't prevent anything. INstead of 12...g5 it looks like 12...Nh6 dislodging g8 for a rook and planning between other things Nf7 to play g5 looks better. 16.g4 is bad. It looks like 16.Qd1 was a better option. Also instead of 16...Rf8 it had to be played 16...Nf6. The last mistake was 18.f3 (18.Bxf6 Bxf6 and 19. f4 was his last chance). White just didn't know how to get some play in the position and got busted.
Take a look into the pawn structure and you will see that it is a KID Saemisch with reversed colors!
Do you have the PGN to this game?
« Last Edit: 08/07/19 at 13:58:41 by XChess1971 »  
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XChess1971
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #54 - 08/07/19 at 07:10:33
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Stigma wrote on 08/07/19 at 02:38:52:
XChess1971 wrote on 08/07/19 at 01:35:19:
Michael Ayton wrote on 08/06/19 at 09:20:37:
Quote:
You can't expect to be told everything in here. You have to do your homework.

And here was me daring to hope that the moves, if not the thoughts, I’d tentatively suggested – the result of a bit of, you know, homework – might even be interesting to someone other than myself or spark a bit of useful discussion sometime. Chastened, I’m sure!


Well you might wanna do more homework about additional questions!

What's going on with the rude, confrontational attitude, XChess1971? If you haven't noticed, Michael Ayton has contributed a lot more to discussions in this forum over the years than you have.

Stigma wrote on 08/07/19 at 02:38:52:
XChess1971 wrote on 08/07/19 at 01:35:19:
Michael Ayton wrote on 08/06/19 at 09:20:37:
Quote:
You can't expect to be told everything in here. You have to do your homework.

And here was me daring to hope that the moves, if not the thoughts, I’d tentatively suggested – the result of a bit of, you know, homework – might even be interesting to someone other than myself or spark a bit of useful discussion sometime. Chastened, I’m sure!


Well you might wanna do more homework about additional questions!

What's going on with the rude, confrontational attitude, XChess1971? If you haven't noticed, Michael Ayton has contributed a lot more to discussions in this forum over the years than you have.


Rude??? I can contribute nothing. And it doesn't make less than anybody. Isn't your comment rude?
I gave him some ideas on the KIA. Because I am an expert on the system. Nobody is willing to reveal anything at all today and even worse teach you things for free. I do not make one single penny out of chess.
But being around 1000 books. I guess it could help me a little bit. Besides experience.
  
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Stigma
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #53 - 08/07/19 at 02:38:52
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XChess1971 wrote on 08/07/19 at 01:35:19:
Michael Ayton wrote on 08/06/19 at 09:20:37:
Quote:
You can't expect to be told everything in here. You have to do your homework.

And here was me daring to hope that the moves, if not the thoughts, I’d tentatively suggested – the result of a bit of, you know, homework – might even be interesting to someone other than myself or spark a bit of useful discussion sometime. Chastened, I’m sure!


Well you might wanna do more homework about additional questions!

What's going on with the rude, confrontational attitude, XChess1971? If you haven't noticed, Michael Ayton has contributed a lot more to discussions in this forum over the years than you have.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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XChess1971
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #52 - 08/07/19 at 01:35:19
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/06/19 at 09:20:37:
Quote:
You can't expect to be told everything in here. You have to do your homework.

And here was me daring to hope that the moves, if not the thoughts, I’d tentatively suggested – the result of a bit of, you know, homework – might even be interesting to someone other than myself or spark a bit of useful discussion sometime. Chastened, I’m sure!


Well you might wanna do more homework about additional questions!
  
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XChess1971
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #51 - 08/07/19 at 01:27:50
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RdC wrote on 08/06/19 at 10:19:24:
Michael Ayton wrote on 08/02/19 at 12:55:52:

In general I agree, but the Réti after 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 Bg2 Nc6 4 0-0 e5 5 c4 d4 6 d3 hasn't scored badly for White?



Personal opinion perhaps, but I would rate a reversed Gruenfeld rather higher for White than a reversed Kings Indian. So 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4. d4 . The extra tempo can be useful in positions with active play. should Black have ambitions beyond just defending an IQP position.

This looks like a transpositional variation. And the pawn structure resulting appeals to one's taste.
  
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XChess1971
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #50 - 08/07/19 at 01:24:58
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/06/19 at 15:00:31:
Offhand I wonder whether, if White is intent on playing a King's Indian Attack instead of a reversed Grunfeld, he might not try 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c5 3.Bg2 Nc6 4.d3 instead of castling.  Then 4...e5 5.Nbd2 Nf6 6.e4, for instance.

Or 4.c4(!) appears to avoid the move order problems presented by 5...Be7 as well.  

Edit: By the way, I won a little 3-minute game with this 5...Be7 idea just now, though as you can see I reverted back to my known "Bishop to knight 5" ideas.

I would be worried much more about a pawn structure than a bishop move.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #49 - 08/06/19 at 15:00:31
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Offhand I wonder whether, if White is intent on playing a King's Indian Attack instead of a reversed Grunfeld, he might not try 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c5 3.Bg2 Nc6 4.d3 instead of castling.  Then 4...e5 5.Nbd2 Nf6 6.e4, for instance.

Or 4.c4(!) appears to avoid the move order problems presented by 5...Be7 as well.  

Edit: By the way, I won an easy little 3-minute game with this 5...Be7 idea just now, though as you can see I reverted back to my known "Bishop to knight 5" comfort zone.

Edit 2: I don't know why my PGN insertion isn't working, but the game went

1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4. O-O e5 5. d3 Be7 6. e4 d4 7. a4 h5 8. h4 f6 9. Na3 Bg4 10. Nc4 Qd7 11. Bd2 O-O-O 12. Qc1 g5 13. hxg5 Bxf3 14. Bxf3 fxg5 15. Bxg5 h4 16. g4 Rf8 17. Be2 Nf6 18. f3 Nh5 19. Bxe7 Qxe7 20. gxh5 Qg7+ 21. Kh1 Qg3 22. Nd6+ Kb8 23. Rf2  Qxf2 24. Qf1 Qxf1+ 25. Rxf1 Rxh5 , etc. 
« Last Edit: 08/06/19 at 23:18:31 by ErictheRed »  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #48 - 08/06/19 at 10:50:49
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Personal opinion perhaps, but I would rate a reversed Gruenfeld rather higher for White than a reversed Kings Indian.

I agree with you, strongly! I got (re-)interested in the Reversed KID just on a whim really, having seen a ChessBase article which mentioned it, and having thought it all looked reasonably promising except for the bugbear 5 ...Be7!
  
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RdC
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #47 - 08/06/19 at 10:19:24
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/02/19 at 12:55:52:

In general I agree, but the Réti after 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 Bg2 Nc6 4 0-0 e5 5 c4 d4 6 d3 hasn't scored badly for White?



Personal opinion perhaps, but I would rate a reversed Gruenfeld rather higher for White than a reversed Kings Indian. So 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4. d4 . The extra tempo can be useful in positions with active play. should Black have ambitions beyond just defending an IQP position.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #46 - 08/06/19 at 09:20:37
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Quote:
You can't expect to be told everything in here. You have to do your homework.

And here was me daring to hope that the moves, if not the thoughts, I’d tentatively suggested – the result of a bit of, you know, homework – might even be interesting to someone other than myself or spark a bit of useful discussion sometime. Chastened, I’m sure!
  
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