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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) King's Indian Attack (Read 52989 times)
Nernstian59
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #92 - 06/13/24 at 22:25:32
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kylemeister wrote on 06/12/24 at 14:40:10:
I don't know if the comment on overprotection appeared in the two editions of Flank Openings which preceded it (1967 and 1970).

I only have the third edition from 1979, so I'm afraid I can't say if that overprotection comment is in earlier editions.

Although I haven't looked at that book in ages, Keene's comment from Becoming a Grandmaster sounds familiar - perhaps because the advice that one can improve by studying the games of one's "chess hero" has been repeated on many occasions.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #91 - 06/12/24 at 14:40:10
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Nernstian59 wrote on 06/09/24 at 22:41:25:
Finally, I wonder if Keene's comment on overprotection was due to a heightened awareness stemming from writing his Nimzowitsch biography. Incidentally, that book, Aron Nimzowitsch - A Reappraisal, was my first exposure to "The Immortal Overprotection Game".

I too thought of that book, which is 50 years old this year. I don't know if the comment on overprotection appeared in the two editions of Flank Openings which preceded it (1967 and 1970).

In Becoming a Grandmaster (1977), Keene wrote that "I had turned the literary skills acquired at Cambridge towards a 'Reappraisal' of my chess hero, 'Aron Nimzowitsch' and the end of 1972 and much of 1973 was spent in contemplation of his games in preparation for the relevant volume. Several masters have observed a marked upswing in their own play after a deep study of a great predecessor. Kotov was another example. He made great strides after his book on Alekhine, and this kind of creative examination is certainly a course I can recommend to any aspiring GM."
  
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Nernstian59
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #90 - 06/09/24 at 22:41:25
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kylemeister - Thanks for the historical tidbits. A database search supports your impression that ...Ne8 never really caught on. It's only been played occasionally over the years, with Tringov- Lee being among the first examples. Perhaps it's because the move never had a prominent supporter who played it regularly. The search showed ...Ne8 being adopted a couple times each by Sveshnikov and Karjakin, but that's about it. In his book, Lakdawala stated that ...Ne8 is a specialty of German GM Klaus Bischoff, and he has played it close to a half dozen times.

One of the more recent games found in the search was V.Pranav-D.Dubov, Titled Tuesday Blitz 13.09.2022, where Dubov executed the transfer of the knight from e8 to f5. Maybe it's a sign of Russian chess culture that a top young player is aware of the idea behind the rather obscure ...Ne8.

Finally, I wonder if Keene's comment on overprotection was due to a heightened awareness stemming from writing his Nimzowitsch biography. Incidentally, that book, Aron Nimzowitsch - A Reappraisal, was my first exposure to "The Immortal Overprotection Game".
« Last Edit: 06/10/24 at 00:54:17 by Nernstian59 »  
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kylemeister
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #89 - 06/08/24 at 14:20:12
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Nernstian59 - ah, ...Ne8. I recalled that as a recognized move from long ago which (as far as I know) never really caught on. Uhlmann in ECO had it as leading to unclear positions. In Keene's Flank Openings it was seen being played e.g. by Peter Lee, and by Hartston against Lee. In Tringov-Lee after 9...Ne8 10. Nf1 a5 11. h4 a4 12. Bf4 Keene commented, "Over-protecting e5 in good Nimzowitsch style."

Speaking of Lee (British champion in 1965), I remembered that he contested a few games last year against an 8-year-old girl.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSzZwRBJVvY
  
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Nernstian59
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #88 - 06/07/24 at 21:32:42
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kylemeister - Thanks for the information in Reply #82. I had formed a mistaken impression that the "newfangled" line involved some sort of Alpha Zero inspired charge of the black a-pawn down the board to a3. As you noted, the Schandorff video shows that he recommends the old main line. I was amused when he ended the KIA portion of the video by saying, "I don't think we'll get mated". That didn't come across as the most ringing endorsement for his suggested line, but perhaps it was just a modest understatement on his part.

The modern mainline setup presented in the June 2022 ChessPublishing update is interesting. Dropping the black bishop to f8 does reinforce the h6-pawn, but White can pile up attackers by forming a bishop + queen battery on the c1-h6 diagonal while bringing a knight to g4. White's concentration of force brings to mind the McDonald quote that FreeRepublic brought up in Reply #77. It's not the most comforting thing to see those opposing pieces massing around the black king. This new mainline setup may be fine in theory, but practical considerations may explain why virtually all of the Black French repertoire books recommend continuations other than the traditional main line against the KIA. The one exception that comes to mind is Lakdawala's Opening Repertoire: The French Defence. Even here there's a difference. After White's e4-e5, the knight on f6 retreats to e8, not d7. Lakdawala explains that it's start of the long-winded maneuver ...Ne8-c7-b5-d4-f5, with the knight being "weirdly powerful" on f5 and keeping the black king safer than in the usual main line.

Finally, on a humorous note, when watching that video of the Yoo-Murzin game, I saw how Black's ...Qc7 compelled Qe2, adding to the forces supporting the white e5-pawn. The sight of a significant portion of White's pieces (including the queen) being committed to the defense of that pawn reminded me of a similar but more extreme instance in the famous "game" Nimzowitsch-Systemsson, Copenhagen 1927; i.e., "The Immortal Overprotection Game". Perhaps White's success in the KIA is due to the overprotection of the e5-pawn!
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #87 - 06/06/24 at 19:41:02
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kylemeister wrote on 06/06/24 at 19:00:02:
Via 6. Na3.

That's probably what I missed. Thanks for alerting me to this game. What a slugfest.

The game was drawn, but as White stood better for a while, I agree that Black should improve. Both White and Black have numerous ways to vary in the opening. Stockfish finds the game approximately even after 15...Nd7.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #86 - 06/06/24 at 19:00:02
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FreeRepublic wrote on 06/06/24 at 18:05:22:
It seems they have been dueling in the KIA. However, I could not find their game from this position.

Via 6. Na3.
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=2052383
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #85 - 06/06/24 at 18:05:22
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kylemeister wrote on 06/06/24 at 16:20:26:
In the case of 8. Nc4 Qc7 9. a4, I gather Black needs an improvement on a rapid game Rapport-Caruana.

It seems they have been dueling in the KIA. However, I could not find their game from this position.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #84 - 06/06/24 at 16:20:26
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FreeRepublic wrote on 06/06/24 at 14:16:35:
After 7.e4, Black should probably close the position with 7...d4 with an interesting game ahead.

In the case of 8. Nc4 Qc7 9. a4, I gather Black needs an improvement on a rapid game Rapport-Caruana.

Speaking of losing tempi in King's Indian systems, this led me to check on the line 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 0-0 6. Bd3 Bg4 7. Be2. In a Titled Tuesday (blitz) game this year after 7...e5 8. d5 a5 9. Be3 Na6 10. Nd2, Black (Jakub Kosakowski, a young Polish IM -- "KosakChess" on YouTube) apparently decided to outdo White in the tempi-losing department with 10...Bc8. I think that doesn't inspire confidence.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #83 - 06/06/24 at 14:16:35
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1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. O-O c5 5. d3 Nc6 6. Nbd2 e5!? Surprise!

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Playing the King's Indian Defense two tempos down seems unreasonable, yet may be good. This is not the Mar Del Plata line reversed. The Classical line that White is playing is good, but not so dynamic. After 7.e4, Black should probably close the position with 7...d4 with an interesting game ahead.

P.S. If you do a search on the position, I suggest you play one more move, 7e4, to get side to move correct.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #82 - 06/06/24 at 00:40:05
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Nernstian59 wrote on 06/05/24 at 22:05:29:
kylemeister - Do you recall where you saw mention of this "newfangled way". It's difficult to search for it with the usual approaches without knowing the moves or having a representative game. I looked around a bit on Chessable, and the discussion page for Schandorff's course had a poster who spoke of the "rapid push of the pawn to a3". That immediately caused me to wonder what Black would do if White prevents ...a4-a3 by playing a2-a3 as in the famous game Fischer-Myagmarsuren, Sousse 1967.

I was thinking of the kind of thing seen in Monsieur Quenehen's video (that is, Yoo-Murzin ... he then shows Fischer-Myagmarsuren). I see a reference here to "the modern mainline setup."
https://www.chesspublishing.com/content/12/jun22.htm

I too wonder about the details re Schandorff; also a bit at about 13 mins. in the introductory video would seem to indicate that he decided to stick with playing it the old way.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #81 - 06/05/24 at 22:05:29
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kylemeister wrote on 06/04/24 at 13:40:12:
I've seen it suggested that White has a problem against the newfangled way of playing the old French main line.

kylemeister - Do you recall where you saw mention of this "newfangled way". It's difficult to search for it with the usual approaches without knowing the moves or having a representative game. I looked around a bit on Chessable, and the discussion page for Schandorff's course had a poster who spoke of the "rapid push of the pawn to a3". That immediately caused me to wonder what Black would do if White prevents ...a4-a3 by playing a2-a3 as in the famous game Fischer-Myagmarsuren, Sousse 1967.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #80 - 06/04/24 at 16:28:41
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kylemeister wrote on 06/04/24 at 14:20:07:
video from the French chess YouTuber Marc Quenehen


I started watching it, and will return to it later. It's fun to listen to a native French speaker. He speaks faster than I can process what I hear. The content of the video looks good and Quenehen presents with enthusiasm.
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #79 - 06/04/24 at 16:22:34
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kylemeister wrote on 06/04/24 at 13:40:12:
Chessable courses on both sides, such as Edouard for White

I listened to Edouard's 6 minute video. It sounds like he has a KIA+ repertoire. By "KIA+", I mean that he recommends the KIA and other lines, as appropriate, for White. That sounds like a good, serious, sensible approach, to me.

As you mentioned, Schandorff covers the KIA as part of his repertoire. The same goes for Tillis in his "1...e6 Against Everything" Chessable course.

My general recollection is that 1...g6 against everything has been recommended several times over the years. Also, some people have recommended pairing the Slav with the Caro-Kan. On my own, I was thinking that 1...e6 could be a good universal move. As far as I know, Tillis is the first to recommend it as such.

Tillis has 6 variations on the KIA.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #78 - 06/04/24 at 14:20:07
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FreeRepublic wrote on 06/04/24 at 14:06:06:
Thanks. I will look into "the newfangled way of playing the old French main line." McDonald said something like:  The (oldfangled) way may be good, but not everyone is comfortable seeing pieces massing around their king.

On this subject, another random thing I came across is a video from the French chess YouTuber Marc Quenehen, showing a game between Christopher Yoo and Volodar Murzin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgu_AyigveI
  
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