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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) King's Indian Attack (Read 21635 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #63 - 08/23/19 at 18:13:40
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Just back from the second of my three summer 'aways' to see these great posts. Excellent stuff, Eric -- thanks for it! It seems to me now (admittedly on just a quick butcher's) that 7 ...Qc7 must be better than 7 ...f6, as you suggest. V. useful Saemisch analogy, too ...

All this has got me thinking how superficial most of the literature I've seen on the KIA is! I can think of at least two good reasons why no one might be massively keen on writing a good book on the subject, but you'd have thought someone would have managed to dig down a bit rather than recycling the same half-dozen lines of old 'analysis' and 'famous games'! ...
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #62 - 08/18/19 at 17:12:11
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I was going to edit my previous post, but I guess that it's been too long? 

If we look at the position after 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4.d3 e5 5.Nbd2 Be7 6.e4 d4 7.Nc4 f6, I don't think that White needs to play 8.a4.  8.Nh4 b5 might be met with 9.Qh5+ (though I haven't analyzed extensively).  But even simply retreating the knight to a3 or d2 leaves Black's pieces somewhat misplaced and queenside possibly over-extended. 

Even 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4.d3 e5 5.Nbd2 Be7 6.e4 d4 7.Nc4 f6 8.a4 Bg4 is probably fine for White.  In my book on the Samisch I point out that this kind of setup works poorly for Black, but here with colors reversed, White has an extra tempo and Black has used a tempo on the sub-optimal ...Be7.  So all in all I think that this must be OK for White, if not hugely inspiring.  Better than allowing the 4.0-0 e5 5.d3 Be7 lines from earlier.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #61 - 08/17/19 at 16:31:33
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For the record, I'm much higher on 4.c4 than I am on 4.d3; if your only problem with 4.0-0 e5 5.c4 is a transposition to a reversed Maroczy bind, then I think that 4.c4 is a very good solution.  Obviously, after 4.c4 Black could play an early ...e6 somewhere and you're likely back in a Tarrasch defense of some sort. 

Regarding 4.d3, I claim no advantage for White.  However, my understanding is that it's specifically 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4. O-O e5 5. d3 Be7 that is the problem, largely because of 6. e4 d4 7. a4 h5!.  So I do think that White benefits by postponing castling here.  If 4.d3 e5 5.Nbd2 Be7, White could continue flexibly with 6.c3. 

Probably best is 6.e4 d4 7.Nc4, when 7...f6 looks a little odd in combination with 5...Be7 to me.  For instance, now White might play 8.0-0 here, because of h5? 9.Nh4!.  8.0-0 b5 9.Na3 a6 (perhaps not best) 10.Nh4 looks OK for White to me, also.  Perhaps even better than castling on move 8 would be 8.Nh4, which avoids all of those pawn-push lines from Black.  I'm talking about 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4.d3 e5 5.Nbd2 Be7 6.e4 d4 7.Nc4 f6 8.Nh4!?.  I think that a KIA player should be pretty happy with White there. 

The problem is probably 7...f6?!.  I'm sure that 7...Qc7 must be better in an ultimate sense, but now I think that White has avoided the worst of the kingside pawn-pushing lines  because the queen is slightly misplaced there (no longer in contact with the kingside and h4).  White could try 8.a4, and if 8...Bg4 use a trick like 9.0-0 h5 10.Qe1 h4 11.Nxh4 Bxh4 12.gh Rxh4 13.f3!  Or if he doesn't want to castle yet, perhaps 9.c3. 

Again I don't claim any advantage for White, but I think that there are subtleties here that favor White compared to the 4.0-0 line I gave above.  A KIA player could do some independent research and come up with a solution that works for them. 





  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #60 - 08/17/19 at 11:17:18
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Hi Michael, did you take a look at my suggestions of 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c5 3.Bg2 Nc6 and now either 4.d3 or 4.c4?

Apologies and thanks! I remember looking at this briefly before getting sidetracked by the succeeding flurry, and then going away for a few days and forgetting all about it!

4 c4 is of course possible just as is 4 d4 (even though after 4 c4 d4 Black achieves ...e5 in one move), but I was basically just speculating on trying out a KIA from time to time instead of my usual Reti. In what sense though does 4 d3 avoid the 5 ...Be7 line(s)? After 4 d3 e5 5 Nbd2 Be7, of course White could play 6 c4 here; but after 6 e4 instead, how can he usefully meet 6 ...d4 without transposing (7 0-0 g5 or h5) to 5 ...Be7 stuff anyway? Is, say, 7 Nc4 f6 8 a4 Bg4 substantially different? Of course I'm not suggesting Black's ...g5/...h5 ideas are necessarily advantageous for him, just that they could be an annoying danger!


  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #59 - 08/12/19 at 14:32:35
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Hi Michael, did you take a look at my suggestions of 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c5 3.Bg2 Nc6 and now either 4.d3 or 4.c4?  I believe that they avoid the lines after 4.0-0 e5 5.d3 Be7 that you'd like to avoid.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #58 - 08/11/19 at 21:37:25
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Many thanks for the kind words, Stigma, Seeley, and sorry I didn’t say so earlier – was away and ‘out of it’ all last week (and will be again this, on holiday). Yes, tongue firmly in cheek! But hope not too ungentle. ‘Provocations’ on here are happily rare (last I can remember must have been well over a couple of years ago). They seem rarer than ever in fact, or is just that the number of posts is getting fewer?
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #57 - 08/08/19 at 00:20:42
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Without wishing to become in embroiled in a discussion that doesn't concern me, I would strongly endorse this observation

Stigma wrote on 08/07/19 at 22:03:24:
People sometimes come here and ask lots of questions without contributing anything themselves, and calling them out on that is only fair. But Michael Ayton is definitely not in that category

and I hope that

Michael Ayton wrote on 08/06/19 at 09:20:37:
Chastened, I’m sure!

is tongue-in-cheek.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #56 - 08/07/19 at 22:03:24
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XChess1971 wrote on 08/07/19 at 07:10:33:
Stigma wrote on 08/07/19 at 02:38:52:
XChess1971 wrote on 08/07/19 at 01:35:19:
Michael Ayton wrote on 08/06/19 at 09:20:37:
Quote:
You can't expect to be told everything in here. You have to do your homework.

And here was me daring to hope that the moves, if not the thoughts, I’d tentatively suggested – the result of a bit of, you know, homework – might even be interesting to someone other than myself or spark a bit of useful discussion sometime. Chastened, I’m sure!


Well you might wanna do more homework about additional questions!

What's going on with the rude, confrontational attitude, XChess1971? If you haven't noticed, Michael Ayton has contributed a lot more to discussions in this forum over the years than you have.


Rude??? I can contribute nothing. And it doesn't make less than anybody. Isn't your comment rude?
I gave him some ideas on the KIA. Because I am an expert on the system. Nobody is willing to reveal anything at all today and even worse teach you things for free. I do not make one single penny out of chess.
But being around 1000 books. I guess it could help me a little bit. Besides experience.

It's great that you're contributing ideas and experience. I hope you keep doing that if and when you feel like it. But obviously that was not what I was criticizing; it was the unnecessarily crass comments about "doing your homework".

People sometimes come here and ask lots of questions without contributing anything themselves, and calling them out on that is only fair. But Michael Ayton is definitely not in that category, that was my point.

Quote:
Nobody is willing to reveal anything at all today and even worse teach you things for free.

There is at least one place online where people have been willing to share and collaborate on chess analysis even if it meant revealing some of their own secrets: This very ChessPub Forum. True, there is less of it now than a few years ago, but I for one hope that spirit doesn't die out completely.
« Last Edit: 08/08/19 at 01:26:08 by Stigma »  

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XChess1971
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #55 - 08/07/19 at 08:02:47
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/06/19 at 15:00:31:
Offhand I wonder whether, if White is intent on playing a King's Indian Attack instead of a reversed Grunfeld, he might not try 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c5 3.Bg2 Nc6 4.d3 instead of castling.  Then 4...e5 5.Nbd2 Nf6 6.e4, for instance.

Or 4.c4(!) appears to avoid the move order problems presented by 5...Be7 as well. 

Edit: By the way, I won an easy little 3-minute game with this 5...Be7 idea just now, though as you can see I reverted back to my known "Bishop to knight 5" comfort zone.

Edit 2: I don't know why my PGN insertion isn't working, but the game went

1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4. O-O e5 5. d3 Be7 6. e4 d4 7. a4 h5 8. h4 f6 9. Na3 Bg4 10. Nc4 Qd7 11. Bd2 O-O-O 12. Qc1 g5 13. hxg5 Bxf3 14. Bxf3 fxg5 15. Bxg5 h4 16. g4 Rf8 17. Be2 Nf6 18. f3 Nh5 19. Bxe7 Qxe7 20. gxh5 Qg7+ 21. Kh1 Qg3 22. Nd6+ Kb8 23. Rf2  Qxf2 24. Qf1 Qxf1+ 25. Rxf1 Rxh5 , etc.


It looks like that 8.h4 move is bad. Now your possible reaction on f4 is no longer available due to weakness created. Especially that hole on g4. Also that h4 is now a breaking point. 8.c3 looks much better with the idea of taking on d4, play Na3 and Bd2. All of that looking for cxd4, Nc4 and a5. Or even after cxd4 cxd4 by putting the bishop on d2 you can play b4 in one shot due to the e5 defended only by the Nc6. Also another option is 8.Na3 to play quickly to c4. In your game white didn't do anything to try to get counterplay. That's why even you sacrificed a pawn on the king side to open him up. Unfortunately that move 12.Qc1 doesn't prevent anything. INstead of 12...g5 it looks like 12...Nh6 dislodging g8 for a rook and planning between other things Nf7 to play g5 looks better. 16.g4 is bad. It looks like 16.Qd1 was a better option. Also instead of 16...Rf8 it had to be played 16...Nf6. The last mistake was 18.f3 (18.Bxf6 Bxf6 and 19. f4 was his last chance). White just didn't know how to get some play in the position and got busted.
Take a look into the pawn structure and you will see that it is a KID Saemisch with reversed colors!
Do you have the PGN to this game?
« Last Edit: 08/07/19 at 13:58:41 by XChess1971 »  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #54 - 08/07/19 at 07:10:33
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Stigma wrote on 08/07/19 at 02:38:52:
XChess1971 wrote on 08/07/19 at 01:35:19:
Michael Ayton wrote on 08/06/19 at 09:20:37:
Quote:
You can't expect to be told everything in here. You have to do your homework.

And here was me daring to hope that the moves, if not the thoughts, I’d tentatively suggested – the result of a bit of, you know, homework – might even be interesting to someone other than myself or spark a bit of useful discussion sometime. Chastened, I’m sure!


Well you might wanna do more homework about additional questions!

What's going on with the rude, confrontational attitude, XChess1971? If you haven't noticed, Michael Ayton has contributed a lot more to discussions in this forum over the years than you have.

Stigma wrote on 08/07/19 at 02:38:52:
XChess1971 wrote on 08/07/19 at 01:35:19:
Michael Ayton wrote on 08/06/19 at 09:20:37:
Quote:
You can't expect to be told everything in here. You have to do your homework.

And here was me daring to hope that the moves, if not the thoughts, I’d tentatively suggested – the result of a bit of, you know, homework – might even be interesting to someone other than myself or spark a bit of useful discussion sometime. Chastened, I’m sure!


Well you might wanna do more homework about additional questions!

What's going on with the rude, confrontational attitude, XChess1971? If you haven't noticed, Michael Ayton has contributed a lot more to discussions in this forum over the years than you have.


Rude??? I can contribute nothing. And it doesn't make less than anybody. Isn't your comment rude?
I gave him some ideas on the KIA. Because I am an expert on the system. Nobody is willing to reveal anything at all today and even worse teach you things for free. I do not make one single penny out of chess.
But being around 1000 books. I guess it could help me a little bit. Besides experience.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #53 - 08/07/19 at 02:38:52
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XChess1971 wrote on 08/07/19 at 01:35:19:
Michael Ayton wrote on 08/06/19 at 09:20:37:
Quote:
You can't expect to be told everything in here. You have to do your homework.

And here was me daring to hope that the moves, if not the thoughts, I’d tentatively suggested – the result of a bit of, you know, homework – might even be interesting to someone other than myself or spark a bit of useful discussion sometime. Chastened, I’m sure!


Well you might wanna do more homework about additional questions!

What's going on with the rude, confrontational attitude, XChess1971? If you haven't noticed, Michael Ayton has contributed a lot more to discussions in this forum over the years than you have.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #52 - 08/07/19 at 01:35:19
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/06/19 at 09:20:37:
Quote:
You can't expect to be told everything in here. You have to do your homework.

And here was me daring to hope that the moves, if not the thoughts, I’d tentatively suggested – the result of a bit of, you know, homework – might even be interesting to someone other than myself or spark a bit of useful discussion sometime. Chastened, I’m sure!


Well you might wanna do more homework about additional questions!
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #51 - 08/07/19 at 01:27:50
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RdC wrote on 08/06/19 at 10:19:24:
Michael Ayton wrote on 08/02/19 at 12:55:52:
In general I agree, but the Réti after 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 Bg2 Nc6 4 0-0 e5 5 c4 d4 6 d3 hasn't scored badly for White?



Personal opinion perhaps, but I would rate a reversed Gruenfeld rather higher for White than a reversed Kings Indian. So 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4. d4 . The extra tempo can be useful in positions with active play. should Black have ambitions beyond just defending an IQP position.

This looks like a transpositional variation. And the pawn structure resulting appeals to one's taste.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #50 - 08/07/19 at 01:24:58
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/06/19 at 15:00:31:
Offhand I wonder whether, if White is intent on playing a King's Indian Attack instead of a reversed Grunfeld, he might not try 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c5 3.Bg2 Nc6 4.d3 instead of castling.  Then 4...e5 5.Nbd2 Nf6 6.e4, for instance.

Or 4.c4(!) appears to avoid the move order problems presented by 5...Be7 as well. 

Edit: By the way, I won a little 3-minute game with this 5...Be7 idea just now, though as you can see I reverted back to my known "Bishop to knight 5" ideas.

I would be worried much more about a pawn structure than a bishop move.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #49 - 08/06/19 at 15:00:31
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Offhand I wonder whether, if White is intent on playing a King's Indian Attack instead of a reversed Grunfeld, he might not try 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c5 3.Bg2 Nc6 4.d3 instead of castling.  Then 4...e5 5.Nbd2 Nf6 6.e4, for instance.

Or 4.c4(!) appears to avoid the move order problems presented by 5...Be7 as well. 

Edit: By the way, I won an easy little 3-minute game with this 5...Be7 idea just now, though as you can see I reverted back to my known "Bishop to knight 5" comfort zone.

Edit 2: I don't know why my PGN insertion isn't working, but the game went

1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4. O-O e5 5. d3 Be7 6. e4 d4 7. a4 h5 8. h4 f6 9. Na3 Bg4 10. Nc4 Qd7 11. Bd2 O-O-O 12. Qc1 g5 13. hxg5 Bxf3 14. Bxf3 fxg5 15. Bxg5 h4 16. g4 Rf8 17. Be2 Nf6 18. f3 Nh5 19. Bxe7 Qxe7 20. gxh5 Qg7+ 21. Kh1 Qg3 22. Nd6+ Kb8 23. Rf2  Qxf2 24. Qf1 Qxf1+ 25. Rxf1 Rxh5 , etc.
« Last Edit: 08/06/19 at 23:18:31 by ErictheRed »  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #48 - 08/06/19 at 10:50:49
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Personal opinion perhaps, but I would rate a reversed Gruenfeld rather higher for White than a reversed Kings Indian.

I agree with you, strongly! I got (re-)interested in the Reversed KID just on a whim really, having seen a ChessBase article which mentioned it, and having thought it all looked reasonably promising except for the bugbear 5 ...Be7!
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #47 - 08/06/19 at 10:19:24
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/02/19 at 12:55:52:
In general I agree, but the Réti after 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 Bg2 Nc6 4 0-0 e5 5 c4 d4 6 d3 hasn't scored badly for White?



Personal opinion perhaps, but I would rate a reversed Gruenfeld rather higher for White than a reversed Kings Indian. So 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4. d4 . The extra tempo can be useful in positions with active play. should Black have ambitions beyond just defending an IQP position.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #46 - 08/06/19 at 09:20:37
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Quote:
You can't expect to be told everything in here. You have to do your homework.

And here was me daring to hope that the moves, if not the thoughts, I’d tentatively suggested – the result of a bit of, you know, homework – might even be interesting to someone other than myself or spark a bit of useful discussion sometime. Chastened, I’m sure!
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #45 - 08/06/19 at 01:46:05
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/05/19 at 00:04:45:
It was only 5 ...Be7 6 c4 Nf6 I was worried about. I don't immediately see strengths in this Reversed Maroczy with 7 cd Nd5 8 Nc3: after 8 ...Be6 how does White play for advantage? I'd actually prefer 7 Bg5, which perhaps I underestimated -- that looks a decent enough try perhaps to make a KIA player not worry about the occasional 5 ...Be7.

Any thoughts, anyone, on the lines I gave above?


After 8...Be6 9.Ng5!? is typical of the Sicilian Dragon! In the Accelerated Dragon there is an idea of playing at some point Nxd5 and a4 of course with black. You need to look into those positions yourself.
After 8.Nc3 we are in a line of the English Opening I believe.
Also you would need to read the Maroczy with black in the Accelerated Dragon so that you can apply those ideas with white. You can't expect to be told everything in here. You have to do your homework.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #44 - 08/05/19 at 00:04:45
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It was only 5 ...Be7 6 c4 Nf6 I was worried about. I don't immediately see strengths in this Reversed Maroczy with 7 cd Nd5 8 Nc3: after 8 ...Be6 how does White play for advantage? I'd actually prefer 7 Bg5, which perhaps I underestimated -- that looks a decent enough try perhaps to make a KIA player not worry about the occasional 5 ...Be7.

Any thoughts, anyone, on the lines I gave above?
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #43 - 08/04/19 at 01:49:54
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kylemeister wrote on 08/03/19 at 04:51:32:
By the way, a bit of a coincidence: the reversed version of 6. c4 d4 7. e3 Nf6 8. ed ed (both versions are old book lines) appears in the most recent (June) Nimzo/Benoni update.


Seliverstov, V - Pantsulaia, L looks interesting to apply with opposite color and one more tempo!
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #42 - 08/03/19 at 21:28:25
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I also forgot 5.d3 Nf6 6,Bg5 Be7 7.Nfd2 threatening Bxf6 and Nc3 putting pressure on d5 (Carlsen-Karjakin Blitz) Ng8 8.Bxe7 Ngxe7 9.c4 if I am not wrong. Also 5.d3 Nf6 6.c4 is an option. On 5.d3 f5 you can play 6.c4 (The 4 Pawn Attack Reversed with an extra tempo!). On this last one 6.e4 should be playable like the Belov Variation against the 4 Pawn Attack on the KID.
You need to know different structures and setups. It is not about scoring well or not. A whole bunch of people could be misplaying it. And it doesn't mean it is bad. If you want to play the KIA you need to know the ideas on the KID, The Modern Benoni and the Benko Gambit also.
« Last Edit: 08/04/19 at 01:33:21 by XChess1971 »  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #41 - 08/03/19 at 04:51:32
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By the way, a bit of a coincidence: the reversed version of 6. c4 d4 7. e3 Nf6 8. ed ed (both versions are old book lines) appears in the most recent (June) Nimzo/Benoni update.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #40 - 08/03/19 at 03:00:12
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/02/19 at 12:55:52:
Quote:
I'm not so keen on the c4 option for white simply because with the knight on c6 and not having played ....e6 black can play ....e5 in one move

In general I agree, but the Réti after 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 Bg2 Nc6 4 0-0 e5 5 c4 d4 6 d3 hasn't scored badly for White?

Below are some further (rather inchoate!) thoughts on other ways White might play after 5 d3 Be7!?. All comments welcome!

I   6 a3 and:

(a) 6 …Nf6 and:

(i) 7 c3 0-0 (7 ...a5 8 a4 0-0 9 Na3 or 9 Bg5; 7 …Be6 8 b4) 8 b4 a6 9 Bg5 is at least a game?
(ii) 7 c4 0-0 (7 ...d4 8 b4) 8 Nc3 Be6, but this is just boring equality?

(b) 6 …Be6 7 c3 and:

(i) 7 …a5 8 a4 Nf6 9 e4 (9 Na3 0-0 10 e4 [10 ...d4 11 Ng5]) 0-0 (9…d4), with a 5 ...Nf6-like position
(ii) 7 …Nf6 8 b4 see a(i) above


II   6 c3 and:

(a) 6 …Nf6 7 Na3!? 0-0 8 e4, with a 5 ...Nf6-like position, e.g. 8 …d4 9 Nc4 Qc7 10 cd cd 11 Qc2

(b) 6 …Be6 7 a3 is Ib above


III   6 Na3 and:

(a) 6 …Nf6 and:

(i) 7 c3 is IIa
(ii) 7 e4 d4 8 Nc4 is an actual 5 ...Nf6 position (Piket’s suggestion 7 …Be6 hasn’t caught on)

(b) 6 …Be6 and:

(i) 7 e4 d4 (7 …Nf6 is a(ii) above) 8 Nc4 Qc7 (8 …Bf6!?), e.g. 9 a4 h5 10 h4 f6 11 c3 Nh6 12 Bd2
(ii) 7 c4 d4 (7 …Nf6 8 Ng5), but 8 Re1 Nf6 9 e3 0-0 10 ed ed 11 Bf4 is just a boringly equal Réti?


5.d3 is good enough. You do not define your structure and wait on black to see what he plays. If 5...Be7 you can play 6. c4 d4 7.e3 with the idea of exd4. You will have to consider the captures ...cxd4 like a Reversed Modern Benoni which is very good with an extra tempo. Or the recapture with ...exd4 which is kind of dull. Say 7...Nf6 8.exd4 exd4 9.Bf4 with the idea of Re1 with equality at least. But if you are looking for fun. It could be interesting 7.b4!? in case of 7...Nxb4 you play 8.Nxe5 opening the diagonal for your white bishop. Besides after a3 you will kick away the black knight and you will have the b column for you. Also in case of 7...cxb4 you can play 8.a3 like a Benko Gambit with Reversed colors. Keep in mind that after 6.c4 black might want to keep the tension with 6...Nf6 then you have the option of playing a Reversed Maroczy with 7.cxd5 Nxd5 8.Nc3 with an extra tempo. Even 7.Bg5 looks interesting. On 6...dxc4 7.Qa4 threatening Nxe5 should be more than OK. You even have the option of taking on c4 with the pawn after that and keep the queens on the board. After 7...Bd7 8.dxc4 Nd4 9.Qd1 Nxf3+ 10.Bxf3 you are much better placed.

Also you can play 6.e4, and in case of 6...dxe4 7.dxe4 Qxd1 8.Rxd1 you can practice this kind of ending. Like in many King's Indian Defense!

My experience with the KIA dates back from 1988. So things that before dogmatic people didn't want to play. It is played nowadays!  Grin
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #39 - 08/02/19 at 12:55:52
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Quote:
I'm not so keen on the c4 option for white simply because with the knight on c6 and not having played ....e6 black can play ....e5 in one move

In general I agree, but the Réti after 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 Bg2 Nc6 4 0-0 e5 5 c4 d4 6 d3 hasn't scored badly for White?

Below are some further (rather inchoate!) thoughts on other ways White might play after 5 d3 Be7!?. All comments welcome!

I   6 a3 and:

(a) 6 …Nf6 and:

(i) 7 c3 0-0 (7 ...a5 8 a4 0-0 9 Na3 or 9 Bg5; 7 …Be6 8 b4) 8 b4 a6 9 Bg5 is at least a game?
(ii) 7 c4 0-0 (7 ...d4 8 b4) 8 Nc3 Be6, but this is just boring equality?

(b) 6 …Be6 7 c3 and:

(i) 7 …a5 8 a4 Nf6 9 e4 (9 Na3 0-0 10 e4 [10 ...d4 11 Ng5]) 0-0 (9…d4), with a 5 ...Nf6-like position
(ii) 7 …Nf6 8 b4 see a(i) above


II   6 c3 and:

(a) 6 …Nf6 7 Na3!? 0-0 8 e4, with a 5 ...Nf6-like position, e.g. 8 …d4 9 Nc4 Qc7 10 cd cd 11 Qc2

(b) 6 …Be6 7 a3 is Ib above


III   6 Na3 and:

(a) 6 …Nf6 and:

(i) 7 c3 is IIa
(ii) 7 e4 d4 8 Nc4 is an actual 5 ...Nf6 position (Piket’s suggestion 7 …Be6 hasn’t caught on)

(b) 6 …Be6 and:

(i) 7 e4 d4 (7 …Nf6 is a(ii) above) 8 Nc4 Qc7 (8 …Bf6!?), e.g. 9 a4 h5 10 h4 f6 11 c3 Nh6 12 Bd2
(ii) 7 c4 d4 (7 …Nf6 8 Ng5), but 8 Re1 Nf6 9 e3 0-0 10 ed ed 11 Bf4 is just a boringly equal Réti?
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #38 - 08/01/19 at 20:00:44
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Thanks, both. Will do a longer reply later, but yes, Black's kingside possibilities afforded by there being no Knight on f6 were what was concerning me, rightly or wrongly ...
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #37 - 08/01/19 at 19:57:26
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I have the impression that McDonald didn't address this 5...Be7 version, which can have independent significance.  (A couple of ancient book possiblities are 6. e4 d4 7. a4 g5 or 7. Nbd2 h5.)
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #36 - 08/01/19 at 18:43:19
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/01/19 at 12:37:42:
I'm keen to know what anyone might think White's best course after 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 Bg2 Nc6 4 0-0 (I'd normally go 4 d4) e5 5 d3 (I tend to prefer 5 c4) Be7. Does anything have any sting? I can't see any decent, let alone inspiring, line after 6 e4 d4, or 6 c4 Nf6. Sad Am I being too pessimistic?


Not sure whether you have access to McDonald's book on the KIA (published by Everyman 2014) but in chapter 4 he goes into some detail about the blocked centre with ....d4 after the e4 advance by white. Basically he feels that although black may have more space, like the KID white has a fairly clear plan to follow and generally has good chances.

He was more concerned about black maintaining the central tension by not advancing or exchanging the d pawn. His view was that this generally leads to white having to play exd5 sooner or later when whites plan and chances are a lot less clear. 

I'm not so keen on the c4 option for white simply because with the knight on c6 and not having played ....e6 black can play ....e5 in one move and I'm just not a fan of allowing black that extra tempo in the reversed Benoni.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #35 - 08/01/19 at 12:37:42
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I'm keen to know what anyone might think White's best course after 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 Bg2 Nc6 4 0-0 (I'd normally go 4 d4) e5 5 d3 (I tend to prefer 5 c4) Be7. Does anything have any sting? I can't see any decent, let alone inspiring, line after 6 e4 d4, or 6 c4 Nf6. Sad Am I being too pessimistic?
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #34 - 09/04/18 at 17:52:35
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Call me a cynic, but I don't have much hope for a publisher that provides a scanned excerpt.  Shocked Huh Undecided
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #33 - 09/04/18 at 13:44:26
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New Book on the KIA
https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/7874.pdf

It's advocating 2. d3 against everything, including 1. .. e5.

Personally I'd think it a little suspect except in 1. e4 e6 2. d3 and 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d3

Playing it on move 2 against the Sicilian discloses your intentions, so for example Black might respond 2. .. Nc6 which he might not be prepared to do after 1. d4 c5 2. Nf3 .
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #32 - 06/30/18 at 12:31:41
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MaxJudd wrote on 06/30/18 at 02:50:11:
A person starting with KIA vs. French is likely not going to be all that familiar with the unbalancing g5 lines in the Be7 Tarrasch unless they play that line as Black. 


I'd say it depends. Given that you can directly transpose, it's possible that a KIA player will have already met the line. Also .. g5 punts by Black aren't that unusual as attempts to break up the usual KIA structures and attack.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #31 - 06/30/18 at 02:50:11
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A person starting with KIA vs. French is likely not going to be all that familiar with the unbalancing g5 lines in the Be7 Tarrasch unless they play that line as Black.  This isn't to say that this Bc5 approach is objectively better but merely that it has some  practical advantages beyond the cheapo set up by the move against the autopilot 5 g3 (and this cheapo does sometimes payoff).
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #30 - 06/28/18 at 08:32:00
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Stigma wrote on 06/28/18 at 05:35:18:
[quote author=4A584D444C444852554453210 link=1166690424/28#28 date=1530156750]
Must be a good idea for Black to have one of these in his repertoire, since they all lead to different play from what White is usually after in the KIA.


After 1. e4 e6 2. d3 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. Ngf3 Bc5, then 5. d4 can be played. 5. .. Be7 is a Tarrasch French but 5. .. dxe4 and 5. .. Bb6 are also possible.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #29 - 06/28/18 at 05:35:18
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kylemeister wrote on 06/28/18 at 03:32:30:
Another possibility after 4. Ngf3 (and not an "old book move" like e.g. 4...Nc6 and 4...b6) is 4...Bc5 (one point being that 5. g3 is blunderous). 
https://www.chesspublishing.com/content/2/jun17.htm#kia


Ah yes, I should have mentioned that one. All these three 4th moves are favorites of John Watson's and covered in Play the French, both the 3rd and 4th editions (I don't have the earlier ones).

Must be a good idea for Black to have one of these in his repertoire, since they all lead to different play from what White is usally after in the KIA.

Btw. Watson seems quite unimpressed by the 4.g3 move order, and I think I agree. 4.Ngf3 must be the better try surely.
  

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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #28 - 06/28/18 at 03:32:30
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Stigma wrote on 06/28/18 at 01:25:05:
McDonald could probably have given the more flexible move order 1.e4 e6 2.d3 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.Ngf3 instead without losing any important options; waiting one more move with g3 to see if the bishop may be more useful elsewhere. Then 4...c5 and 4...Be7 can be confidently met with 5.g3. But 4...Nc6!? and 4...b6 are more sneaky, retaining options of ...e5 and/or ...Bc5. Both are very decent defences to the KIA.


Another possibility after 4. Ngf3 (and not an "old book move" like e.g. 4...Nc6 and 4...b6) is 4...Bc5 (one point being that 5. g3 is blunderous). 
https://www.chesspublishing.com/content/2/jun17.htm#kia
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #27 - 06/28/18 at 01:25:05
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RdC wrote on 06/27/18 at 18:57:40:
Playing a reverse Philidor is hardly the most aggressive of openings even with an extra tempo or two unless you spice it up by not castling, but playing Rg1 and g4 instead.

Cool plan. I have never looked at g4 in these positions. But it's a move that crops up in all kinds of openings these days. I guess this would actually be a White Lion!

VGA wrote on 06/28/18 at 00:42:30:
But I have to fianchetto since I already weakened a ton of squares by playing g3. Right?

McDonald could probably have given the more flexible move order 1.e4 e6 2.d3 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.Ngf3 instead without losing any important options; waiting one more move with g3 to see if the bishop may be more useful elsewhere. Then 4...c5 and 4...Be7 can be confidently met with 5.g3. But 4...Nc6!? and 4...b6 are more sneaky, retaining options of ...e5 and/or ...Bc5. Both are very decent defences to the KIA.

VGA wrote on 06/28/18 at 00:42:30:
Anyway, McDonald also suggests the alternative Qe2 instead of Nd2.

I've been looking at the KIA vs the French myself, and would love to make 2.d3 d5 3.Qe2 work. But the tempo-losing ...e6-e5 is a problem here too: 3...Nc6!? 4.Nf3 dxe4 5.dxe4 e5. Now 6.c3 and 7.Qc2 to get the bishop outside the blocked e4 pawn is probably best but nothing special for White - it's just a game. 3...Nc6 4.Nf3 d4 with a weird reversed King's Indian is also possible.

Starting with 2.Qe2 is an option, hoping to avoid or gain different options against these defences with ...e6-e5 and no ...c5 from Black.
  

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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #26 - 06/28/18 at 00:42:30
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RdC wrote on 06/27/18 at 18:57:40:
VGA wrote on 06/27/18 at 15:48:51:
Now what? White has played g3 already, he has to fianchetto on g2 and have a bad blocked in bishop while Black has space, easy development and castles 1 move earlier, too.


You can in fact change plans and play Nf3 and the Bishop out to b5. I don't know whether Macdonald recommends this.

With an early dxe4 and .. e5, the other plan for White is not to fianchetto at all, but to play c3 and Be2. Playing a reverse Philidor is hardly the most aggressive of openings even with an extra tempo or two unless you spice it up by not castling, but playing Rg1 and g4 instead.

But I have to fianchetto since I already weakened a ton of squares by playing g3. Right?

Anyway, McDonald also suggests the alternative Qe2 instead of Nd2.

Meanwhile I have decided that trying to play the KIA as a system will not give me any advantage, I'm better off focusing on each defense to e4, building around the Ruy Lopez. It may take a while  Grin
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #25 - 06/27/18 at 19:47:43
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kylemeister wrote on 06/27/18 at 19:20:03:
[quote author=7E486F2C0 link=1166690424/23#23 date=1530125860]
But Black can meet 6. Ngf3 with ...Bc5.


An engine claims 7. Nxe5 as playable and a very small edge. No games in practice though.

The Vasiukov - Tal game is or perhaps was well known. It's in Ray Keene's Flank Openings as one of the few games to demonstrate that the KIA isn't a forced win.



  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #24 - 06/27/18 at 19:20:03
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RdC wrote on 06/27/18 at 18:57:40:
You can in fact change plans and play Nf3 and the Bishop out to b5. I don't know whether Macdonald recommends this.


But Black can meet 6. Ngf3 with ...Bc5.
Incidentally, a game with this system some people might recall is (the recently deceased) Vasiukov-Tal, annotated by Tal in his Life and Games book.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #23 - 06/27/18 at 18:57:40
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VGA wrote on 06/27/18 at 15:48:51:
Now what? White has played g3 already, he has to fianchetto on g2 and have a bad blocked in bishop while Black has space, easy development and castles 1 move earlier, too.


You can in fact change plans and play Nf3 and the Bishop out to b5. I don't know whether Macdonald recommends this.

With an early dxe4 and .. e5, the other plan for White is not to fianchetto at all, but to play c3 and Be2. Playing a reverse Philidor is hardly the most aggressive of openings even with an extra tempo or two unless you spice it up by not castling, but playing Rg1 and g4 instead.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #22 - 06/27/18 at 16:56:09
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VGA wrote on 06/27/18 at 15:48:51:
So he suggests 1. e4 e6 2.d3 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.g3

OK what if Black simply exchanges on e4?  4. ...dxe4 5. dxe4
Then Black plays 5. ...e5!


Well, that is in fact an old respected way of playing with Black.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #21 - 06/27/18 at 15:48:51
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I am reading the first chapter of Neil McDonald's KIA Move by Move game. This chapter is versus the French, the author states the KIA is good when Black has played e6 because he loses tempo if he plays e5 later.

So he suggests 1. e4 e6 2.d3 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.g3

OK what if Black simply exchanges on e4?  4. ...dxe4 5. dxe4
Then Black plays 5. ...e5!
Now what? White has played g3 already, he has to fianchetto on g2 and have a bad blocked in bishop while Black has space, easy development and castles 1 move earlier, too. Ehhhh? Where is my tempo advantage? I am playing White and he lost a tempo supposedly moving his e-pawn twice.

  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #20 - 05/08/08 at 03:03:41
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Ricardo dos Ramos is an Angstgegner for me - I have 0,5 out of about 10 against him. The draw I got when I deliberately played for it and decided to defend the NYD - until now the first and last time I tried it. And RdR has 20 years of experience with the KIA.
I won't deny that White scores above average against 4.b3 and 4.d3. I just wonder if he also does after 1...d5; 2...Nf6; 3...c6; 4...Bf5 and 5...e6.
  

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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #19 - 05/07/08 at 14:21:02
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Granted : London seems to cover a lot of openigns based on d4/Bf4/Nf3 etc. Therefor London System seems to be the most appropriate name to me...
But that was not the point, but this : the NYD is not that terrible to meet, in fact White scores above average with 4. b3 and 4. d3.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #18 - 05/06/08 at 16:06:04
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Compare 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bf4 Bg7 4.e3 0-0 5.h3 d6 6.c3 with 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 c6 4.0-0 Bf5 5.d3 e6 and 6...h6. As far as I know the first sequence is part of the London Opening. The latter is called the New York Defence.
  

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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #17 - 05/06/08 at 14:51:00
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MNB, it is not a reversed London as long as White does not play x. d4.
And white does have some viable other options which do not score too badly... 
After all the KIA (A07-A08) is just a variation within the Reti (A04 up till A09)...
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #16 - 05/06/08 at 02:02:17
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[quote author=JEH link=1166690424/0#13 date=1209979155]
These are the sort of holes a KIA needs to patch with other systems. It's not a universal solution to lazyness  ;)
[/quote]
Same problem if Black wants to play a Dutch Iljin-Zjenevsky. 1.Nf3 e6 and now what? White should either play 2.d4 (or later) or 2.e4, but may well assume that this is regular stuff for Black.
As I am not impressed by White's chances either if Black plays the New York (a reversed London), I usually advise to play the KIA only after 1.e4. Then White has the choice.
  

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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #15 - 05/05/08 at 10:25:55
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I think you sum up the options well, JEH.

Dunnington, yeah -- but after looking at his Reversed Pirc-style suggestion in some detail I concluded it's anodyne indeed. I think which option a player adopts must be guided principally by the highly subjective/personal matter of which other openings they know and find congenial. As someone who plays the Reti and is learning the English I'm tempted myself by 2 c4, but for the latter I don't necessarily want my KN on f3.

In your option (2) maybe a sound but rarer, less theory-intensive anti-Chigorin is an idea -- say 3 Bf4 or 3 g3.

  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #14 - 05/05/08 at 09:34:01
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It's not a universal solution to lazyness  Wink

Damn i was hoping  Smiley
I think the average chess player uses to much time on opening theory and to little with the endgame
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #13 - 05/05/08 at 09:19:15
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[quote author=nmga link=1166690424/0#12 date=1209977299] Point taken, but I could see no mention in Emms' book of (after 1 Nf3) 1 ...Nc6, which though obviously not critical for the KIA can be seriously annoying for a "system" player if they've got nothing prepared against it ...[/quote]

I've only come across Dunnington's Ultimate KIA that mentions this one in the mass of KIA books. Rather annoying to be on your own at move 2!

Main Options are:

1) 2. e4 and Transpose into a Nimzowistch defence or mainline 1. e4 e5 opening. OK if you are using the KIA as part of an 1. e4 repetoire, which is the best approach.
2) 2. d4 and Transpose into a Chigorin. Decent choice theoretically, but not ideal to learn something like this for rare occasions.
3) 2. c4 and you're in a Reti.

These are outside of the scope of a Starting Out:KIA book somewhat, but are the best options.

4) 2. g3 and keep going with the system. White'll probably end up in a reversed Pirc. This is also true if you use the KIA vs the Alekhine (1. e4 Nf6 2. d3), Petroff (1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. d3) or as a Lopez replacement (1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. g3 or d3). There is also KIA vs Pirc, or a copycat/symettrical approach. All very tame and not ideal, but White is =.

These are the sort of holes a KIA needs to patch with other systems. It's not a universal solution to lazyness  ;)

  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #12 - 05/05/08 at 08:48:19
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[quote]I think the best effort so far is Emm's Starting Out:KIA, as he gives a balanced view and doesn't overrate White's chances or shove the Fischer games down your throat.[/quote]

Point taken, but I could see no mention in Emms' book of (after 1 Nf3) 1 ...Nc6, which though obviously not critical for the KIA can be seriously annoying for a "system" player if they've got nothing prepared against it ...
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #11 - 05/05/08 at 07:28:54
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TomKarlsen wrote on 05/05/08 at 07:20:41:
Anybody knows Nigel Davies kia dvd is it okay ? chesscafe thinks its "okay"
I thinking of taking the KIA up as surprise weapon


The KIA won't be that much of a surprise anymore. If you like learning from DVD's then Nigel's one is decent.

The problem with a lot of KIA material is that it is overhyped by the authour as the ultimate answer to all your opening woes.

Therefore I think the best effort so far is Emm's Starting Out:KIA, as he gives a balanced view and doesn't overrate White's chances or shove the Fischer games down your throat.


  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #10 - 05/05/08 at 07:20:41
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Anybody knows Nigel Davies kia dvd is it okay ? chesscafe thinks its "okay"
I thinking of taking the KIA up as surprise weapon
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #9 - 05/04/08 at 08:51:04
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if black plays a kings indian setup he plays c4,d3,Rb1,b4. And keeps the e-pawn back at e2
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #8 - 05/04/08 at 08:36:04
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What does he play against 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 followed by Black copying White for a few more moves, e.g. 4.0-0 0-0 5.d3 d6 6.e4 e5? Black should be close to completely equal if he plays like this, in my opinion.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #7 - 05/04/08 at 07:42:00
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I know a 2300 guy who always play Nf3,g3,Bg2,0-0 sometimes delaying 0-0. Often he plays d3, e4 or c4 sometimes b3. His results are quiet good. One im norm. As he says " I know my posistion is minimum equal".
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #6 - 05/03/08 at 20:55:33
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Tiviakov reminds me of something someone (I'm thinking Jeroen Piket) wrote about Eduardas Rozentalis (another "quiet 1. e4-player"), approximately "he has devoted his career to turning boring openings into dangerous weapons."
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #5 - 05/03/08 at 20:41:37
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JEH wrote on 12/21/06 at 14:22:52:
I've spent the last year weeding the KIA out of my repetoire.


Gosh, I did sound bitter back then. Ironically I spent the last year seeding the KIA back in  Smiley

Quote:
Just look up at some games from the european championchip that just finished, and you will find many games from GM's employing that opening sucessfully.


Thanks for the pointer cyronix, I've been having a look.

Tiviakov winning with the KIA vs the Caro-Kann, and even a 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. g3
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #4 - 05/03/08 at 20:30:04
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Quote:
King's Indian Attack offers no theoretical advantage,
but white is not worse in any case,


Whew!!! Well what a relief to know White is not worse. Would not want to play an opening as White where I can't equalize.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #3 - 05/03/08 at 20:04:56
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King's Indian Attack offers no theoretical advantage,
but white is not worse in any case,
and the positions are quite dynamic.
Just look up at some games from the european championchip that just finished, and you will find many games from GM's employing that opening sucessfully.
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #2 - 12/22/06 at 10:17:14
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I still play the KIA because it's almost never a draw and very interesting. But that's true black has a very wide choiceof good continuations. To limit Black choice you can start by 1.e4 and there is no more King Indian reversed, Bf5 and Bg4 variations. Tha dark side is that we have to study 1.e4 e5 1.e4 c6 and the terrible 1.e4 d5! no King indian attack this way !
  
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Re: King's Indian Attack
Reply #1 - 12/21/06 at 14:22:52
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I've spent the last year weeding the KIA out of my repetoire. There are many good set ups for Black, and being so spoilt for choice one hasn't really emerged as best. I guess it depends on what best fits in with the rest of blacks repetoire.

For me, the systems that put me off the KIA the most were the Sicilan set up with c5/d6/e5/f5/g6/Bg7/Nc6 and Ne7 (although Nf6 is ok too) and the KIA reversed, d5, c5, Nc6, e5 (especially with g6) where it took me a long while to accept that White's extra move in a KID might actually be a liability.

Now it might be thought ok to keep the KIA vs systems where Black has played e6 (ie French and e6 Sicilians), but in the Sicilian system above, Black is still ok playing e5 in two moves, on top of that there is a glut other equalising systems available to a French player. Watson's French book covers 3, the long main line is ok for Black, and lines where Black castles Queenside are ok too, plus the g6/e6/d5 system is available from the French.

And I haven't even go to the London and Keres systems which are ok for Black too! I've also wondered if White has any advantage if Black just mirrors Whites moves, which isn't covered much in the theory books. Plus there's 1. Nf3 Nc6 which is a problem for White if not prepared to go into mainline theory with 2. e4 or 2.d4

Sure, there have been some great games won by KIA players, but I think that was despite the opening, not because of it. KIA books mention Fischer, and sure, Fischer won some great KIA games, but these were in his youth and it's more instructive to look at what openings Fischer stopped playing.

  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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King's Indian Attack
12/21/06 at 08:40:24
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I like to play sometimes the King's Indian Attack and i have almost all the books on the subjet. But i never found serious analysis and maybe the best set up for black : 1.e4 (or 1.g3 or Nf3) c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.0-0 Nc6 6.d3 e6 7.c3 Nge7. Books gives always the same game : Fischer-Durao 8.d4! 0-0 9.dxc5! dxc5 10.Qe2! += a little incomplete !
  
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