I think these Reversed King's Indian positions are interesting for both sides. I don't mind either color. In rated play I used to favor 5...f6, but in offhand chess (not lately due to COVID) I have switched to 5...Be7. Is the below game relevant? See notes from ChessBase in the attachment.
https://en.chessbase.com/post/siem-van-dael-unorthodox-openings-lead-to-success

1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c5 3.Bg2 Nc6 4.O-O e5 5.d3 Be7 6.Na3  Be6  7.c3 
7.e4 d4 8.Nc4 f6 9.a4 Qd7 10.Ne1 g5 11.f4 gxf4 12.gxf4 O-O-O 13. f5 Bxc4 14.dxc4 (1:0, 61) Wynn -Ismail, Nay Pyi Taw 2013
7...g5 8.e4



8...g4 9.Ng5! +/- (1:0, 28) Blohberger - Wernberg, Uppsala Young Champions 2020

VGA wrote on 11/19/19 at 14:20:35:


I see the author uses a number of old Fischer games as illustrations. Unless he has something new to say, these games and the ideas in them would be familiar from when they first appeared in 1960s and 1970s magazines and books.

Just back from the second of my three summer 'aways' to see these great posts. Excellent stuff, Eric -- thanks for it! It seems to me now (admittedly on just a quick butcher's) that 7 ...Qc7 must be better than 7 ...f6, as you suggest. V. useful Saemisch analogy, too ...

All this has got me thinking how superficial most of the literature I've seen on the KIA is! I can think of at least two good reasons why no one might be massively keen on writing a good book on the subject, but you'd have thought someone would have managed to dig down a bit rather than recycling the same half-dozen lines of old 'analysis' and 'famous games'! ...

For the record, I'm much higher on 4.c4 than I am on 4.d3; if your only problem with 4.0-0 e5 5.c4 is a transposition to a reversed Maroczy bind, then I think that 4.c4 is a very good solution.  Obviously, after 4.c4 Black could play an early ...e6 somewhere and you're likely back in a Tarrasch defense of some sort. 

Regarding 4.d3, I claim no advantage for White.  However, my understanding is that it's specifically 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4. O-O e5 5. d3 Be7 that is the problem, largely because of 6. e4 d4 7. a4 h5!.  So I do think that White benefits by postponing castling here.  If 4.d3 e5 5.Nbd2 Be7, White could continue flexibly with 6.c3. 

Probably best is 6.e4 d4 7.Nc4, when 7...f6 looks a little odd in combination with 5...Be7 to me.  For instance, now White might play 8.0-0 here, because of h5? 9.Nh4!.  8.0-0 b5 9.Na3 a6 (perhaps not best) 10.Nh4 looks OK for White to me, also.  Perhaps even better than castling on move 8 would be 8.Nh4, which avoids all of those pawn-push lines from Black.  I'm talking about 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4.d3 e5 5.Nbd2 Be7 6.e4 d4 7.Nc4 f6 8.Nh4!?.  I think that a KIA player should be pretty happy with White there. 

The problem is probably 7...f6?!.  I'm sure that 7...Qc7 must be better in an ultimate sense, but now I think that White has avoided the worst of the kingside pawn-pushing lines  because the queen is slightly misplaced there (no longer in contact with the kingside and h4).  White could try 8.a4, and if 8...Bg4 use a trick like 9.0-0 h5 10.Qe1 h4 11.Nxh4 Bxh4 12.gh Rxh4 13.f3!  Or if he doesn't want to castle yet, perhaps 9.c3. 

Again I don't claim any advantage for White, but I think that there are subtleties here that favor White compared to the 4.0-0 line I gave above.  A KIA player could do some independent research and come up with a solution that works for them. 

Hi Michael, did you take a look at my suggestions of 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c5 3.Bg2 Nc6 and now either 4.d3 or 4.c4?  I believe that they avoid the lines after 4.0-0 e5 5.d3 Be7 that you'd like to avoid.

Without wishing to become in embroiled in a discussion that doesn't concern me, I would strongly endorse this observation

Stigma wrote on 08/07/19 at 22:03:24:

and I hope that

Michael Ayton wrote on 08/06/19 at 09:20:37:

is tongue-in-cheek.

ErictheRed wrote on 08/06/19 at 15:00:31:


It looks like that 8.h4 move is bad. Now your possible reaction on f4 is no longer available due to weakness created. Especially that hole on g4. Also that h4 is now a breaking point. 8.c3 looks much better with the idea of taking on d4, play Na3 and Bd2. All of that looking for cxd4, Nc4 and a5. Or even after cxd4 cxd4 by putting the bishop on d2 you can play b4 in one shot due to the e5 defended only by the Nc6. Also another option is 8.Na3 to play quickly to c4. In your game white didn't do anything to try to get counterplay. That's why even you sacrificed a pawn on the king side to open him up. Unfortunately that move 12.Qc1 doesn't prevent anything. INstead of 12...g5 it looks like 12...Nh6 dislodging g8 for a rook and planning between other things Nf7 to play g5 looks better. 16.g4 is bad. It looks like 16.Qd1 was a better option. Also instead of 16...Rf8 it had to be played 16...Nf6. The last mistake was 18.f3 (18.Bxf6 Bxf6 and 19. f4 was his last chance). White just didn't know how to get some play in the position and got busted.
Take a look into the pawn structure and you will see that it is a KID Saemisch with reversed colors!
Do you have the PGN to this game?

XChess1971 wrote on 08/07/19 at 01:35:19:

What's going on with the rude, confrontational attitude, XChess1971? If you haven't noticed, Michael Ayton has contributed a lot more to discussions in this forum over the years than you have.

RdC wrote on 08/06/19 at 10:19:24:

This looks like a transpositional variation. And the pawn structure resulting appeals to one's taste.

Offhand I wonder whether, if White is intent on playing a King's Indian Attack instead of a reversed Grunfeld, he might not try 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c5 3.Bg2 Nc6 4.d3 instead of castling.  Then 4...e5 5.Nbd2 Nf6 6.e4, for instance.

Or 4.c4(!) appears to avoid the move order problems presented by 5...Be7 as well. 

Edit: By the way, I won an easy little 3-minute game with this 5...Be7 idea just now, though as you can see I reverted back to my known "Bishop to knight 5" comfort zone.

Edit 2: I don't know why my PGN insertion isn't working, but the game went

1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4. O-O e5 5. d3 Be7 6. e4 d4 7. a4 h5 8. h4 f6 9. Na3 Bg4 10. Nc4 Qd7 11. Bd2 O-O-O 12. Qc1 g5 13. hxg5 Bxf3 14. Bxf3 fxg5 15. Bxg5 h4 16. g4 Rf8 17. Be2 Nf6 18. f3 Nh5 19. Bxe7 Qxe7 20. gxh5 Qg7+ 21. Kh1 Qg3 22. Nd6+ Kb8 23. Rf2  Qxf2 24. Qf1 Qxf1+ 25. Rxf1 Rxh5 , etc.

Michael Ayton wrote on 08/02/19 at 12:55:52:



Personal opinion perhaps, but I would rate a reversed Gruenfeld rather higher for White than a reversed Kings Indian. So 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 c5 3. Bg2 Nc6 4. d4 . The extra tempo can be useful in positions with active play. should Black have ambitions beyond just defending an IQP position.

Michael Ayton wrote on 08/05/19 at 00:04:45:


After 8...Be6 9.Ng5!? is typical of the Sicilian Dragon! In the Accelerated Dragon there is an idea of playing at some point Nxd5 and a4 of course with black. You need to look into those positions yourself.
After 8.Nc3 we are in a line of the English Opening I believe.
Also you would need to read the Maroczy with black in the Accelerated Dragon so that you can apply those ideas with white. You can't expect to be told everything in here. You have to do your homework.

kylemeister wrote on 08/03/19 at 04:51:32:


Seliverstov, V - Pantsulaia, L looks interesting to apply with opposite color and one more tempo!

By the way, a bit of a coincidence: the reversed version of 6. c4 d4 7. e3 Nf6 8. ed ed (both versions are old book lines) appears in the most recent (June) Nimzo/Benoni update.

Quote:

In general I agree, but the Réti after 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 Bg2 Nc6 4 0-0 e5 5 c4 d4 6 d3 hasn't scored badly for White?

Below are some further (rather inchoate!) thoughts on other ways White might play after 5 d3 Be7!?. All comments welcome!

I   6 a3 and:

(a) 6 …Nf6 and:

(i) 7 c3 0-0 (7 ...a5 8 a4 0-0 9 Na3 or 9 Bg5; 7 …Be6 8 b4) 8 b4 a6 9 Bg5 is at least a game?
(ii) 7 c4 0-0 (7 ...d4 8 b4) 8 Nc3 Be6, but this is just boring equality?

(b) 6 …Be6 7 c3 and:

(i) 7 …a5 8 a4 Nf6 9 e4 (9 Na3 0-0 10 e4 [10 ...d4 11 Ng5]) 0-0 (9…d4), with a 5 ...Nf6-like position
(ii) 7 …Nf6 8 b4 see a(i) above


II   6 c3 and:

(a) 6 …Nf6 7 Na3!? 0-0 8 e4, with a 5 ...Nf6-like position, e.g. 8 …d4 9 Nc4 Qc7 10 cd cd 11 Qc2

(b) 6 …Be6 7 a3 is Ib above


III   6 Na3 and:

(a) 6 …Nf6 and:

(i) 7 c3 is IIa
(ii) 7 e4 d4 8 Nc4 is an actual 5 ...Nf6 position (Piket’s suggestion 7 …Be6 hasn’t caught on)

(b) 6 …Be6 and:

(i) 7 e4 d4 (7 …Nf6 is a(ii) above) 8 Nc4 Qc7 (8 …Bf6!?), e.g. 9 a4 h5 10 h4 f6 11 c3 Nh6 12 Bd2
(ii) 7 c4 d4 (7 …Nf6 8 Ng5), but 8 Re1 Nf6 9 e3 0-0 10 ed ed 11 Bf4 is just a boringly equal Réti?

I have the impression that McDonald didn't address this 5...Be7 version, which can have independent significance.  (A couple of ancient book possiblities are 6. e4 d4 7. a4 g5 or 7. Nbd2 h5.)

I'm keen to know what anyone might think White's best course after 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 Bg2 Nc6 4 0-0 (I'd normally go 4 d4) e5 5 d3 (I tend to prefer 5 c4) Be7. Does anything have any sting? I can't see any decent, let alone inspiring, line after 6 e4 d4, or 6 c4 Nf6. Am I being too pessimistic?

New Book on the KIA
https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/7874.pdf

It's advocating 2. d3 against everything, including 1. .. e5.

Personally I'd think it a little suspect except in 1. e4 e6 2. d3 and 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d3

Playing it on move 2 against the Sicilian discloses your intentions, so for example Black might respond 2. .. Nc6 which he might not be prepared to do after 1. d4 c5 2. Nf3 .

A person starting with KIA vs. French is likely not going to be all that familiar with the unbalancing g5 lines in the Be7 Tarrasch unless they play that line as Black.  This isn't to say that this Bc5 approach is objectively better but merely that it has some  practical advantages beyond the cheapo set up by the move against the autopilot 5 g3 (and this cheapo does sometimes payoff).

kylemeister wrote on 06/28/18 at 03:32:30:


Ah yes, I should have mentioned that one. All these three 4th moves are favorites of John Watson's and covered in Play the French, both the 3rd and 4th editions (I don't have the earlier ones).

Must be a good idea for Black to have one of these in his repertoire, since they all lead to different play from what White is usally after in the KIA.

Btw. Watson seems quite unimpressed by the 4.g3 move order, and I think I agree. 4.Ngf3 must be the better try surely.

RdC wrote on 06/27/18 at 18:57:40:

Cool plan. I have never looked at g4 in these positions. But it's a move that crops up in all kinds of openings these days. I guess this would actually be a White Lion!

VGA wrote on 06/28/18 at 00:42:30:

McDonald could probably have given the more flexible move order 1.e4 e6 2.d3 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.Ngf3 instead without losing any important options; waiting one more move with g3 to see if the bishop may be more useful elsewhere. Then 4...c5 and 4...Be7 can be confidently met with 5.g3. But 4...Nc6!? and 4...b6 are more sneaky, retaining options of ...e5 and/or ...Bc5. Both are very decent defences to the KIA.

VGA wrote on 06/28/18 at 00:42:30:

I've been looking at the KIA vs the French myself, and would love to make 2.d3 d5 3.Qe2 work. But the tempo-losing ...e6-e5 is a problem here too: 3...Nc6!? 4.Nf3 dxe4 5.dxe4 e5. Now 6.c3 and 7.Qc2 to get the bishop outside the blocked e4 pawn is probably best but nothing special for White - it's just a game. 3...Nc6 4.Nf3 d4 with a weird reversed King's Indian is also possible.

Starting with 2.Qe2 is an option, hoping to avoid or gain different options against these defences with ...e6-e5 and no ...c5 from Black.

kylemeister wrote on 06/27/18 at 19:20:03:


An engine claims 7. Nxe5 as playable and a very small edge. No games in practice though.

The Vasiukov - Tal game is or perhaps was well known. It's in Ray Keene's Flank Openings as one of the few games to demonstrate that the KIA isn't a forced win.

VGA wrote on 06/27/18 at 15:48:51:


You can in fact change plans and play Nf3 and the Bishop out to b5. I don't know whether Macdonald recommends this.

With an early dxe4 and .. e5, the other plan for White is not to fianchetto at all, but to play c3 and Be2. Playing a reverse Philidor is hardly the most aggressive of openings even with an extra tempo or two unless you spice it up by not castling, but playing Rg1 and g4 instead.

I am reading the first chapter of Neil McDonald's KIA Move by Move game. This chapter is versus the French, the author states the KIA is good when Black has played e6 because he loses tempo if he plays e5 later.

So he suggests 1. e4 e6 2.d3 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.g3

OK what if Black simply exchanges on e4?  4. ...dxe4 5. dxe4
Then Black plays 5. ...e5!
Now what? White has played g3 already, he has to fianchetto on g2 and have a bad blocked in bishop while Black has space, easy development and castles 1 move earlier, too. Ehhhh? Where is my tempo advantage? I am playing White and he lost a tempo supposedly moving his e-pawn twice.

Granted : London seems to cover a lot of openigns based on d4/Bf4/Nf3 etc. Therefor London System seems to be the most appropriate name to me...
But that was not the point, but this : the NYD is not that terrible to meet, in fact White scores above average with 4. b3 and 4. d3.

MNB, it is not a reversed London as long as White does not play x. d4.
And white does have some viable other options which do not score too badly... 
After all the KIA (A07-A08) is just a variation within the Reti (A04 up till A09)...

I think you sum up the options well, JEH.

Dunnington, yeah -- but after looking at his Reversed Pirc-style suggestion in some detail I concluded it's anodyne indeed. I think which option a player adopts must be guided principally by the highly subjective/personal matter of which other openings they know and find congenial. As someone who plays the Reti and is learning the English I'm tempted myself by 2 c4, but for the latter I don't necessarily want my KN on f3.

In your option (2) maybe a sound but rarer, less theory-intensive anti-Chigorin is an idea -- say 3 Bf4 or 3 g3.

[quote author=nmga link=1166690424/0#12 date=1209977299] Point taken, but I could see no mention in Emms' book of (after 1 Nf3) 1 ...Nc6, which though obviously not critical for the KIA can be seriously annoying for a "system" player if they've got nothing prepared against it ...[/quote]

I've only come across Dunnington's Ultimate KIA that mentions this one in the mass of KIA books. Rather annoying to be on your own at move 2!

Main Options are:

1) 2. e4 and Transpose into a Nimzowistch defence or mainline 1. e4 e5 opening. OK if you are using the KIA as part of an 1. e4 repetoire, which is the best approach.
2) 2. d4 and Transpose into a Chigorin. Decent choice theoretically, but not ideal to learn something like this for rare occasions.
3) 2. c4 and you're in a Reti.

These are outside of the scope of a Starting Out:KIA book somewhat, but are the best options.

4) 2. g3 and keep going with the system. White'll probably end up in a reversed Pirc. This is also true if you use the KIA vs the Alekhine (1. e4 Nf6 2. d3), Petroff (1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. d3) or as a Lopez replacement (1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. g3 or d3). There is also KIA vs Pirc, or a copycat/symettrical approach. All very tame and not ideal, but White is =.

These are the sort of holes a KIA needs to patch with other systems. It's not a universal solution to lazyness  ;)

TomKarlsen wrote on 05/05/08 at 07:20:41:


The KIA won't be that much of a surprise anymore. If you like learning from DVD's then Nigel's one is decent.

The problem with a lot of KIA material is that it is overhyped by the authour as the ultimate answer to all your opening woes.

Therefore I think the best effort so far is Emm's Starting Out:KIA, as he gives a balanced view and doesn't overrate White's chances or shove the Fischer games down your throat.

if black plays a kings indian setup he plays c4,d3,Rb1,b4. And keeps the e-pawn back at e2

I know a 2300 guy who always play Nf3,g3,Bg2,0-0 sometimes delaying 0-0. Often he plays d3, e4 or c4 sometimes b3. His results are quiet good. One im norm. As he says " I know my posistion is minimum equal".

JEH wrote on 12/21/06 at 14:22:52:


Gosh, I did sound bitter back then. Ironically I spent the last year seeding the KIA back in  

Quote:


Thanks for the pointer cyronix, I've been having a look.

Tiviakov winning with the KIA vs the Caro-Kann, and even a 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. g3

King's Indian Attack offers no theoretical advantage,
but white is not worse in any case,
and the positions are quite dynamic.
Just look up at some games from the european championchip that just finished, and you will find many games from GM's employing that opening sucessfully.

I've spent the last year weeding the KIA out of my repetoire. There are many good set ups for Black, and being so spoilt for choice one hasn't really emerged as best. I guess it depends on what best fits in with the rest of blacks repetoire.

For me, the systems that put me off the KIA the most were the Sicilan set up with c5/d6/e5/f5/g6/Bg7/Nc6 and Ne7 (although Nf6 is ok too) and the KIA reversed, d5, c5, Nc6, e5 (especially with g6) where it took me a long while to accept that White's extra move in a KID might actually be a liability.

Now it might be thought ok to keep the KIA vs systems where Black has played e6 (ie French and e6 Sicilians), but in the Sicilian system above, Black is still ok playing e5 in two moves, on top of that there is a glut other equalising systems available to a French player. Watson's French book covers 3, the long main line is ok for Black, and lines where Black castles Queenside are ok too, plus the g6/e6/d5 system is available from the French.

And I haven't even go to the London and Keres systems which are ok for Black too! I've also wondered if White has any advantage if Black just mirrors Whites moves, which isn't covered much in the theory books. Plus there's 1. Nf3 Nc6 which is a problem for White if not prepared to go into mainline theory with 2. e4 or 2.d4

Sure, there have been some great games won by KIA players, but I think that was despite the opening, not because of it. KIA books mention Fischer, and sure, Fischer won some great KIA games, but these were in his youth and it's more instructive to look at what openings Fischer stopped playing.