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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Palliser's "Beating Unusual Chess Openings" (Read 29090 times)
HoemberChess
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Mover-order issues after 1.c4 c6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3
Reply #46 - 01/02/09 at 09:52:51
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I have the book, but it does not cover 1.c4 c6. 
It suggests a solution only to the 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 move order -- 2..d4. (Named Reti Benoni in Davies' Dynamic Reti from 2004)

Here come two questions about the 1.c4 c6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 move order.
When...
A)...I am on the _Black_ side of it.
I play the Slav (1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 Bg4), so with 3..Nf6 I would be on familiar grounds after 4.d4 but White can play tricks with 4.Qc2 or 4.Nc3. Then 4..Bg4 is not very good in either case, but I don't normally play the Meran. (I play only the open Slav.)

Question: What should I play on 4.Qc2 and 4.Nc3, respectively?
Is 4..a6 the only one that is left apart from accepting transposition to the Meran, which I wouldn't play otherwise? (Am I move-ordered to a kind of Chebanenko Slav?)
Request: Please recommend some literature on the subject.


B)...I am on the _White_ side of it, playing tricks on Slav players. Smiley (Yes, I like these opening tricks very much.)

Question: What are the advantages of 4.Qc2? And 4.Nc3?
Should I study the Meran or could another move-order trick be played on Meran adherents, too? Smiley
Request: Please recommend some literature on the subject.
  

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Checkmate13
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Re: Palliser's "Beating Unusual Chess Openings"
Reply #45 - 01/30/08 at 07:19:36
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I bought your book.  I really like the clear crisp typeset and diagrams.  As I dig into the book I may have more comments but at this time just wanted to say thank you!
Checkmate13
Paul Covington
  
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edgy
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Re: Palliser's "Beating Unusual Chess Openings
Reply #44 - 01/08/08 at 21:25:14
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JonathanB wrote on 01/01/08 at 18:14:54:
nyoke wrote on 01/01/08 at 09:38:17:
The idea of 3. c5 is really quite simple : making it impossible for black to occupy that square with his c-pawn, so that he hascto revert to other means to protect his pawn on d4.


Oh, OK thanks.

I still don't get it though.  It's not as if Black has to play ...c5 to protect the pawn and when he plays ... Nc6 and ... e5 (which is a very reasonable line anyway) he'll gain a tempo on the pawn [not to mention the fact that White may have blocked c5 but he's given up d5 in exchange]


Well, ...Nc6 is answered by Qa4, with ideas of b4-b5.  Around 1990 I used to play the colors-reversed line 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 c5 3. d5 c4, which was advocated by a German master named Buecker (along with a couple of other unusual Benonis).  I suspect that it's weaker with White since Black has ...f6 available since he hans't played ...Nf6 yet.  Still might be fun, though.

Quote:

If IM Palliser's book bothers its arse to make a recommendation against 3. c5 I think we can assume it's a very detailed book indeed.  If it doesn't ... well I'm not sure I'd hold it against him.


I agree on both points;  this is pretty obscure stuff.
  

Caissa have mercy on a miserable patzer: http://altergoniff.blogspot.com
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Fernando Semprun
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Re: Palliser's "Beating Unusual Chess Openings"
Reply #43 - 01/08/08 at 20:01:23
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Hi,

I tried the repertoire since my score with black is very good against 1.d4 and 1.e4 (even better than white) but dismal against 1.c4 or 1.Nf3.

I have tried from the KID to the slav, semislav, 1...e5 (not available against 1.Nf3...)

So far I have had success against lower rated opponents but not so much against higher rated. And I distrust the 4...Qb6 line after an early d4...

In CC I have decided to transpose to an accelerated dragon, but that looks like an enormous amount of work for a line I face so rarely....

I have noticed that after 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d4 cd4 4.Nd4 e6 a line involving Qc7 a6 and capturing c4 if white fianchettoes is pretty good for black.

Carsten Hansen agrees in his symmetrical english book. Problem is, Nf6 is bad with the proposed e5, Nge7, g6 systems proposed (Nice fight for the black squares).

So, some problems remain to be solved...
  

Fernando Semprun
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Re: Palliser's "Beating Unusual Chess Openings
Reply #42 - 01/01/08 at 18:14:54
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nyoke wrote on 01/01/08 at 09:38:17:
The idea of 3. c5 is really quite simple : making it impossible for black to occupy that square with his c-pawn, so that he hascto revert to other means to protect his pawn on d4.


Oh, OK thanks.

I still don't get it though.  It's not as if Black has to play ...c5 to protect the pawn and when he plays ... Nc6 and ... e5 (which is a very reasonable line anyway) he'll gain a tempo on the pawn [not to mention the fact that White may have blocked c5 but he's given up d5 in exchange]

If IM Palliser's book bothers its arse to make a recommendation against 3. c5 I think we can assume it's a very detailed book indeed.  If it doesn't ... well I'm not sure I'd hold it against him.
  

www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com  "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
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Re: Palliser's "Beating Unusual Chess Openings"
Reply #41 - 01/01/08 at 09:38:17
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The idea of 3. c5 is really quite simple : making it impossible for black to occupy that square with his c-pawn, so that he hascto revert to other means to protect his pawn on d4.
  
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Re: Palliser's "Beating Unusual Chess Openings"
Reply #40 - 01/01/08 at 09:22:46
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Ptero wrote on 12/31/07 at 07:25:57:
TopNotch wrote on 12/31/07 at 02:05:22:


I have always thought Sarno's idea in the following line a bit troublesome for Black:

Sarno,S (2410) - Cugini,W (2255) [A36]
Imperia op Imperia (2), 1996 

I see 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 c5 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.e3 Ne7 6.Nge2 Nbc6 7.d3 a6 8.0-0 0-0 9.a3 Rb8 10.b4! cxb4 11.axb4 b5 12.cxb5 axb5 13.Qb3 Qb6 14.Bd2 d6 15.Rfc1 Be6 16.Qa3 d5 17.Nd1 Ra8 18.Qxa8 Rxa8 19.Rxa8+ Bf8 20.Raa1 d4 21.exd4 Nxd4 22.Nxd4 exd4 23.Ra8 Kg7 24.Rc5 Bd7 25.Rc1 Bc6 26.Bxc6 Nxc6 27.f4 Bxb4 28.Bxb4 Nxb4 29.Nf2 Nd5 30.Rcc8 Ne7 31.Re8 Qc6 32.Rab8 b4 33.Rxe7 1-0

Does Palliser consider this?

Toppy Smiley



Nope. According to Palliser (noting on a similar position to the game you have given): "we will make sure that the b pawn never reaches b4". The current line with 7.d3 does not seem particularly challenging and is not given, but probably will lead to a transposition into BUCO after, say, 7...d6 8.0-0 0-0 9.a3 Rb8 (here Palliser also looks at 9...Be6) 10.Rb1 a5, intending to meet 11.Nd5 with ...b5 (actually this is exactly the position reached in the second game I described above). 
I see no reason for black to commit himself with an early ...a6. Also, playing 1...e5 and 2...c5 looks a tad inflexible compared with the move orders examined in BUCO (I recall how Karpov got totally dominated positionally - not an everyday occurrence - by Kasp in the 8th game of Seville 87 after playing a very early ...e5 and ...c5). 


Thanks Ptero, very interesting stuff indeed.

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Palliser's "Beating Unusual Chess Openings"
Reply #39 - 12/31/07 at 10:05:37
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JonHecht wrote on 12/30/07 at 21:42:18:
c5? Seriously? I never even considered that ...


That was my reaction too.

What's the idea of 3. c5?  I don't get it.
  

www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com  "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
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Re: Palliser's "Beating Unusual Chess Openings"
Reply #38 - 12/31/07 at 07:25:57
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TopNotch wrote on 12/31/07 at 02:05:22:


I have always thought Sarno's idea in the following line a bit troublesome for Black:

Sarno,S (2410) - Cugini,W (2255) [A36]
Imperia op Imperia (2), 1996 

I see 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 c5 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.e3 Ne7 6.Nge2 Nbc6 7.d3 a6 8.0-0 0-0 9.a3 Rb8 10.b4! cxb4 11.axb4 b5 12.cxb5 axb5 13.Qb3 Qb6 14.Bd2 d6 15.Rfc1 Be6 16.Qa3 d5 17.Nd1 Ra8 18.Qxa8 Rxa8 19.Rxa8+ Bf8 20.Raa1 d4 21.exd4 Nxd4 22.Nxd4 exd4 23.Ra8 Kg7 24.Rc5 Bd7 25.Rc1 Bc6 26.Bxc6 Nxc6 27.f4 Bxb4 28.Bxb4 Nxb4 29.Nf2 Nd5 30.Rcc8 Ne7 31.Re8 Qc6 32.Rab8 b4 33.Rxe7 1-0

Does Palliser consider this?

Toppy Smiley



Nope. According to Palliser (noting on a similar position to the game you have given): "we will make sure that the b pawn never reaches b4". The current line with 7.d3 does not seem particularly challenging and is not given, but probably will lead to a transposition into BUCO after, say, 7...d6 8.0-0 0-0 9.a3 Rb8 (here Palliser also looks at 9...Be6) 10.Rb1 a5, intending to meet 11.Nd5 with ...b5 (actually this is exactly the position reached in the second game I described above). 
I see no reason for black to commit himself with an early ...a6. Also, playing 1...e5 and 2...c5 looks a tad inflexible compared with the move orders examined in BUCO (I recall how Karpov got totally dominated positionally - not an everyday occurrence - by Kasp in the 8th game of Seville 87 after playing a very early ...e5 and ...c5). 
  
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Re: Palliser's "Beating Unusual Chess Openings"
Reply #37 - 12/31/07 at 02:05:22
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Ptero wrote on 12/30/07 at 21:56:08:
TopNotch wrote on 12/29/07 at 20:20:46:
So has anyone tested the proposed repertoire as yet, particularly against the English?

Tops Smiley


So far I have used Palliser’s proposed repertoire twice in OTB games. I find this repertoire rather economical as I play the Sicilian regularly so with it can answer 1.e4, 1.c4 and 1.Nf3 (and for what it is worth also 1.b3 and 1.g3) with 1…c5. 
In a 90 + 30 league game I played the black side of symmetrical English against a 2300 something master (my own national rating is a little over 2200). He misplayed the opening, but unfortunately I did not remember the refutation given by Palliser during the game, played suboptimally myself, got into worse position, but fortunately managed to tactically trick my opponent in the middlegame and eventually win the game. In another game, this time a 15 + 5 rapid against a 2250 or so opponent, I again took the black side of the symmetrical English. This time I did remember Palliser’s recommendation and reached a playable position. But being totally unfamiliar with the structure, I chose a wrong plan and got into an utterly miserable position. Fortunately I was still able to bamboozle my opponent with cheap tactics to the point where he lost on time. So for me it’s so far 2 out of 2 but rather little to be proud of.
Seriously, I think Richard proposes in BUCO a genuinely healthy repertoire against the flank stuff. Flank opening were and still are the Achilles’ heel of my opening repertoire, because A) they avoid concrete play which is my forte, and B) they are played much less often than 1.e4 and 1.d4 stuff, thus it is hard to obtain the necessary experience to handle them properly. So I am willing to continue with the suggestions given in BUCO (at least until I get properly hammered   Smiley).         


I have always thought Sarno's idea in the following line a bit troublesome for Black:

Sarno,S (2410) - Cugini,W (2255) [A36]
Imperia op Imperia (2), 1996 

1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 c5 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.e3 Ne7 6.Nge2 Nbc6 7.d3 a6 8.0-0 0-0 9.a3 Rb8 10.b4! cxb4 11.axb4 b5 12.cxb5 axb5 13.Qb3 Qb6 14.Bd2 d6 15.Rfc1 Be6 16.Qa3 d5 17.Nd1 Ra8 18.Qxa8 Rxa8 19.Rxa8+ Bf8 20.Raa1 d4 21.exd4 Nxd4 22.Nxd4 exd4 23.Ra8 Kg7 24.Rc5 Bd7 25.Rc1 Bc6 26.Bxc6 Nxc6 27.f4 Bxb4 28.Bxb4 Nxb4 29.Nf2 Nd5 30.Rcc8 Ne7 31.Re8 Qc6 32.Rab8 b4 33.Rxe7 1-0

Does Palliser consider this?

Toppy Smiley



  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Palliser's "Beating Unusual Chess Openings"
Reply #36 - 12/30/07 at 22:02:39
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I recall that Palliser covers at least some of that kind of thing (thinking also of 3. b4 f6 4. e3 e5 5. c5, which had some coverage in a Watson book about a decade ago) ...
  
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Re: Palliser's "Beating Unusual Chess Openings"
Reply #35 - 12/30/07 at 21:56:08
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TopNotch wrote on 12/29/07 at 20:20:46:
So has anyone tested the proposed repertoire as yet, particularly against the English?

Tops Smiley


So far I have used Palliser’s proposed repertoire twice in OTB games. I find this repertoire rather economical as I play the Sicilian regularly so with it can answer 1.e4, 1.c4 and 1.Nf3 (and for what it is worth also 1.b3 and 1.g3) with 1…c5. 
In a 90 + 30 league game I played the black side of symmetrical English against a 2300 something master (my own national rating is a little over 2200). He misplayed the opening, but unfortunately I did not remember the refutation given by Palliser during the game, played suboptimally myself, got into worse position, but fortunately managed to tactically trick my opponent in the middlegame and eventually win the game. In another game, this time a 15 + 5 rapid against a 2250 or so opponent, I again took the black side of the symmetrical English. This time I did remember Palliser’s recommendation and reached a playable position. But being totally unfamiliar with the structure, I chose a wrong plan and got into an utterly miserable position. Fortunately I was still able to bamboozle my opponent with cheap tactics to the point where he lost on time. So for me it’s so far 2 out of 2 but rather little to be proud of.
Seriously, I think Richard proposes in BUCO a genuinely healthy repertoire against the flank stuff. Flank opening were and still are the Achilles’ heel of my opening repertoire, because A) they avoid concrete play which is my forte, and B) they are played much less often than 1.e4 and 1.d4 stuff, thus it is hard to obtain the necessary experience to handle them properly. So I am willing to continue with the suggestions given in BUCO (at least until I get properly hammered   Smiley).         
  
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Re: Palliser's "Beating Unusual Chess Openings"
Reply #34 - 12/30/07 at 21:54:49
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SOS volume 2 contains an article about this unusal move.
  
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Re: Palliser's "Beating Unusual Chess Openings"
Reply #33 - 12/30/07 at 21:42:18
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c5? Seriously? I never even considered that, and still don't.
  
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Re: Palliser's "Beating Unusual Chess Openings"
Reply #32 - 12/30/07 at 20:19:19
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How about the 2...d4 3. c5 ?! Is that covered ?
  
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