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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Chigorin Ruy Lopez: Panov Variation (Read 37851 times)
Keano
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Re: Chigorin Ruy Lopez: Panov Variation
Reply #24 - 10/24/13 at 08:54:05
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tony37 wrote on 10/16/13 at 10:30:02:
in Daniel's line: 14.d5 Rac8 15.Bd3 Nd7 16.Nf1 f5 17.b3, has only been played in correspondence games


That would explain why its not in my database and is Houdini's first choice!
It looks like an excellent positional move also.
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Chigorin Ruy Lopez: Panov Variation
Reply #23 - 10/20/13 at 19:58:30
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Schaakhamster wrote on 10/20/13 at 14:10:50:
Looked at this line a few years ago and found this game of Hou Yifan pretty convincing against the exchange sack


But 20...Bxd5 is probably an error.
  
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Re: Chigorin Ruy Lopez: Panov Variation
Reply #22 - 10/20/13 at 14:10:50
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Looked at this line a few years ago and found this game of Hou Yifan pretty convincing against the exchange sack

[Event "Magistral Ruy Lopez"] [Site "Zafra ESP"] [Date "2007.??.??"] [White "Hou Yifan"] [Black "Perez Candelario,Man"] [Round "7"] [Result "1-0"] [WhiteElo "2509"] [BlackElo "2515"] [ECO "C88"] 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3 O-O 9. h3 Na5 10. Bc2 c5 11. d4 Qc7 12. Nbd2 cxd4 13. cxd4 Bb7 14. d5 Rac8 15. Bd3 Nd7 16. Nf1 f5 17. Ng3 f4 18. Nf5 Rxf5 19. exf5 Nf6 20. Ng5 Bxd5 21. Be4 Bxe4 22. Nxe4 Nxe4 23. Rxe4 Qb7 24. Re1 Rf8 25. Qd3 Rf6 26. b3 g6 27. Bd2 Nc6 28. fxg6 Rxg6 29. Qd5+ Kf8 30. Bxf4 Nd8 31. Qxb7 Nxb7 32. Be3 d5 33. Rac1 d4 34. Rc8+ Nd8 35. Bd2 Re6 36. f4 e4 37. f5 1-0
  
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Re: Chigorin Ruy Lopez: Panov Variation
Reply #21 - 10/17/13 at 14:25:30
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/17/13 at 13:45:15:
Daniel wrote on 10/15/13 at 15:49:46:
download all the ICCF and LSS games, make a database of them, kill all the doubles, and then make an opening book of the culled database consisting of all games with players rated above 2000 or so.


How do you download the correspondence games? I remember seeing a thread here which suggested that you had to be an ICCF player to get their database now.

The thread can be found here: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1374219618/0
and i also wrote a blogarticle around it
http://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2013/10/iccf.html
  
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Re: Chigorin Ruy Lopez: Panov Variation
Reply #20 - 10/17/13 at 13:45:15
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Daniel wrote on 10/15/13 at 15:49:46:
download all the ICCF and LSS games, make a database of them, kill all the doubles, and then make an opening book of the culled database consisting of all games with players rated above 2000 or so.


How do you download the correspondence games? I remember seeing a thread here which suggested that you had to be an ICCF player to get their database now.
  
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Re: Chigorin Ruy Lopez: Panov Variation
Reply #19 - 10/16/13 at 19:23:08
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Daniel wrote on 10/16/13 at 16:48:38:
If 16...f5 is bad, why am I even playing 13...Bb7 14. d4 Rac8 anyway?


Good question!

Daniel wrote on 10/16/13 at 16:48:38:

For 28...Nxf2 white is still for preference after:

29. Kxf2 g5 30. Kf1 fxe3 31. Bxe3 Qb4 32. Kg1 Qxe4 33. Bxg5 Qg6 34. Bxd8 Rxd8 35. Kh2 *


I would prefer to play 31...Qb5 so that 32 a4 Qb4 leaves the b-pawn backward (it might prove important later), then after 33 Kg1 g4 (33...Bxh3!? looks worse) 34 hxg4 hxg4 35 Nd2 g3!? with plenty of play for the pawn, and meanwhile 35 Qd2 can be met by the nice trick 35...gxf3!

Daniel wrote on 10/16/13 at 16:48:38:
After 27...a5, sacs on e5 are annoying:

28. Bc3 Ba6 29. Rd2 h5 30. Ngxe5 Nxe5 31. Nxe5 dxe5 32. Bxe5+ Bf6 33. Ba1


It doesn't look that worrying for Black after 33...Qd6 as the central pawns aren't going anywhere, Black's pieces are reasonably active and ...f3 is a threat.
  
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Re: Chigorin Ruy Lopez: Panov Variation
Reply #18 - 10/16/13 at 16:48:38
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/16/13 at 11:29:00:
tony37 wrote on 10/16/13 at 10:30:02:
in Daniel's line: 14.d5 Rac8 15.Bd3 Nd7 16.Nf1 f5 17.b3, has only been played in correspondence games


Interesting, it occurred to me that 17 exf5 Nc5 was probably not very good because of the reply 18 b3!, keeping the knight stuck on a5, but I didn't consider 17 b3.


Ouch 17. b3! is just good as 17...Qc3 18. Rb1 Nc5 traps both the Queen and the a5 knight.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3 O-O 9. h3 Na5 10. Bc2 c5 11. d4 Qc7 12. Nbd2 cxd4 13. cxd4 Bb7 14. d5 Rac8 15. Bd3 Nd7 16. Nf1 f5 17. b3 Qc3 18. Rb1 Nc5 19. Bd2 Qxd3 20. Re3 Qxb1 21. Qxb1 +-

Quote:

Daniel wrote on 10/15/13 at 15:49:46:
Sure. I became interested in this line after discovering 18...Rxf5!?, but it doesn't fully equalize  ie:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3 O-O 9. h3 Na5 10. Bc2 c5 11. d4 Qc7 12. Nbd2 cxd4 13. cxd4 Bb7 14. d5 Rac8 15. Bd3 Nd7 16. Nf1 f5 17. Ng3 f4 18. Nf5 Rxf5 19. exf5 Nf6 20. Bd2 Nc4 21. Rc1 Qd7 22. Bxc4 bxc4 23. b3 cxb3 24. Rxc8+ Qxc8 25. Qxb3 Bxd5 26. Qb1 Bf8 27. Ng5 *


I suppose 18...Rxf5 is playable OTB in a quick game, but it doesn't look like Black has a great deal for the exchange, objectively.


This whole line is starting to look like it's best saved for rapid and blitz games! If 16...f5 is bad, why am I even playing 13...Bb7 14. d4 Rac8 anyway?

Quote:

Wow! I think there is little chance of coming across white play like this OTB unless Ivanov comes out of 'retirement'!
Two questions: is 27...a5 playable? What about 28...Nxf2 29 Kxf2 g5 ?


For 28...Nxf2 white is still for preference after:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3 O-O 9. h3 Na5 10. Bc2 c5 11. d4 Qc7 12. Nbd2 cxd4 13. cxd4 Bb7 14. d5 Rac8 15. Bd3 Nd7 16. Nf1 f5 17. Ng3 f4 18. Nf5 Bd8 19. Bd2 Nc4 20. Rc1 g6 21. Nh6+ Kg7 22. b3 Nc5 23. Bxc4 bxc4 24. Rxc4 Qb6 25. Ng4 Nd3 26. Rxc8 Bxc8 27. Re2 h5 28. Ne3 Nxf2 29. Kxf2 g5 30. Kf1 fxe3 31. Bxe3 Qb4 32. Kg1 Qxe4 33. Bxg5 Qg6 34. Bxd8 Rxd8 35. Kh2 *

After 27...a5, sacs on e5 are annoying:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3 O-O 9. h3 Na5 10. Bc2 c5 11. d4 Qc7 12. Nbd2 cxd4 13. cxd4 Bb7 14. d5 Rac8 15. Bd3 Nd7 16. Nf1 f5 17. Ng3 f4 18. Nf5 Bd8 19. Bd2 Nc4 20. Rc1 g6 21. Nh6+ Kg7 22. b3 Nc5 23. Bxc4 bxc4 24. Rxc4 Qb6 25. Ng4 Nd3 26. Rxc8 Bxc8 27. Re2 a5 28. Bc3 Ba6 29. Rd2 h5 30. Ngxe5 Nxe5 31. Nxe5 dxe5 32. Bxe5+ Bf6 33. Ba1
  
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Re: Chigorin Ruy Lopez: Panov Variation
Reply #17 - 10/16/13 at 11:29:00
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tony37 wrote on 10/16/13 at 10:30:02:
in Daniel's line: 14.d5 Rac8 15.Bd3 Nd7 16.Nf1 f5 17.b3, has only been played in correspondence games


Interesting, it occurred to me that 17 exf5 Nc5 was probably not very good because of the reply 18 b3!, keeping the knight stuck on a5, but I didn't consider 17 b3.

Daniel wrote on 10/15/13 at 15:49:46:
Sure. I became interested in this line after discovering 18...Rxf5!?, but it doesn't fully equalize  ie:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3 O-O 9. h3 Na5 10. Bc2 c5 11. d4 Qc7 12. Nbd2 cxd4 13. cxd4 Bb7 14. d5 Rac8 15. Bd3 Nd7 16. Nf1 f5 17. Ng3 f4 18. Nf5 Rxf5 19. exf5 Nf6 20. Bd2 Nc4 21. Rc1 Qd7 22. Bxc4 bxc4 23. b3 cxb3 24. Rxc8+ Qxc8 25. Qxb3 Bxd5 26. Qb1 Bf8 27. Ng5 *


I suppose 18...Rxf5 is playable OTB in a quick game, but it doesn't look like Black has a great deal for the exchange, objectively.

Daniel wrote on 10/15/13 at 15:49:46:

18...Bd8 is not much better on account of lines like: 

19. Bd2 Nc4 20. Rc1 g6 21. Nh6+ Kg7 22. b3 Nc5 23. Bxc4 bxc4 24. Rxc4 Qb6 25. Ng4 Nd3 26. Rxc8 Bxc8 27. Re2 h5 28. Ne3 fxe3 29. Bxe3 Nc5 30. Bxc5 dxc5 31. Nxe5 Qf6 32. Nc4 Qf4 33. Qa1+ *

with good play for white.


Wow! I think there is little chance of coming across white play like this OTB unless Ivanov comes out of 'retirement'!
Two questions: is 27...a5 playable? What about 28...Nxf2 29 Kxf2 g5 ?
  
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Re: Chigorin Ruy Lopez: Panov Variation
Reply #16 - 10/16/13 at 10:30:02
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in Daniel's line: 14.d5 Rac8 15.Bd3 Nd7 16.Nf1 f5 17.b3, has only been played in correspondence games
  
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Re: Chigorin Ruy Lopez: Panov Variation
Reply #15 - 10/15/13 at 23:46:24
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tony37 wrote on 10/15/13 at 16:48:10:
in that line 17.b3 scores an incredible 94% for white


Which line?
  
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Re: Chigorin Ruy Lopez: Panov Variation
Reply #14 - 10/15/13 at 16:48:10
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in that line 17.b3 scores an incredible 94% for white
playable? not this line I guess (likely because black has two pieces doing about nothing)
  
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Re: Chigorin Ruy Lopez: Panov Variation
Reply #13 - 10/15/13 at 15:49:46
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Sure. I became interested in this line after discovering 18...Rxf5!?, but it doesn't fully equalize  ie:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3 O-O 9. h3 Na5 10. Bc2 c5 11. d4 Qc7 12. Nbd2 cxd4 13. cxd4 Bb7 14. d5 Rac8 15. Bd3 Nd7 16. Nf1 f5 17. Ng3 f4 18. Nf5 Rxf5 19. exf5 Nf6 20. Bd2 Nc4 21. Rc1 Qd7 22. Bxc4 bxc4 23. b3 cxb3 24. Rxc8+ Qxc8 25. Qxb3 Bxd5 26. Qb1 Bf8 27. Ng5 *


18...Bd8 is not much better on account of lines like: 

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3 O-O 9. h3 Na5 10. Bc2 c5 11. d4 Qc7 12. Nbd2 cxd4 13. cxd4 Bb7 14. d5 Rac8 15. Bd3 Nd7 16. Nf1 f5 17. Ng3 f4 18. Nf5 Bd8 19. Bd2 Nc4 20. Rc1 g6 21. Nh6+ Kg7 22. b3 Nc5 23. Bxc4 bxc4 24. Rxc4 Qb6 25. Ng4 Nd3 26. Rxc8 Bxc8 27. Re2 h5 28. Ne3 fxe3 29. Bxe3 Nc5 30. Bxc5 dxc5 31. Nxe5 Qf6 32. Nc4 Qf4 33. Qa1+ *

with good play for white.

A good, free, and legal tool for studying openings Tony is to download all the ICCF and LSS games, make a database of them, kill all the doubles, and then make an opening book of the culled database consisting of all games with players rated above 2000 or so. This enables much faster searching than say, setting your ICCF database as a reference database in Chessbase. If you need help just message me and I can walk you through it.
  
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Re: Chigorin Ruy Lopez: Panov Variation
Reply #12 - 10/15/13 at 00:59:16
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Matemax wrote on 10/14/13 at 14:14:52:

For sure - I could filter out all corr. games played on ICCF in this line if needed.


Ok, thanks!
  
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Re: Chigorin Ruy Lopez: Panov Variation
Reply #11 - 10/14/13 at 14:14:52
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/14/13 at 10:36:38:
I've been looking at this line and it seems more than playable to me - would any subscribers be interested in this as a repertoire for Black? Undecided

For sure - I could filter out all corr. games played on ICCF in this line if needed.
  
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Re: Chigorin Ruy Lopez: Panov Variation
Reply #10 - 10/14/13 at 12:19:51
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/14/13 at 10:36:38:
I've been looking at this line and it seems more than playable to me - would any subscribers be interested in this as a repertoire for Black? Undecided


Well, there you have it. Your next book, waiting to be written. Chugging with the Chigorin. 
With QualityChess, not Everyman please.
Standards.

As an aside, I do so like the name joakimvitriol, who posted earlier.
  
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