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Normal Topic Radjabov-Karjakin, Corus round 2 (Read 5432 times)
Willempie
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Re: Radjabov-Karjakin, Corus round 2
Reply #7 - 01/17/07 at 15:19:03
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OstapBender wrote on 01/15/07 at 21:58:57:
Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I find it difficult to believe that Black had no other choice than to give up his queen in this position.

I dont see much else to play. Plus it is both the bishop and rook pair that disappear from the board.

The fortress position is quite well known and I find it hard to believe black didnt take it into account with Qxc2. I suspect it was his main reason not to resign directly.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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kevinludwig
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Re: Radjabov-Karjakin, Corus round 2
Reply #6 - 01/16/07 at 20:55:04
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I'm sure Karjakin knew of it; it's a pretty well known fortress (heck, even I knew about it). Also, it seems logical that he might think (on move 27), "I should not move my f-pawn, because as long as it stays at home, I have an additional drawing option in case I need it." Just part of keeping your options open.
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Radjabov-Karjakin, Corus round 2
Reply #5 - 01/16/07 at 16:24:10
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An example of it, certainly. But Kotov gives at least one very good example in the book of what he means – the knight and rook against knight and bishop with the extra pawn, and he just shows the set-up White wants. That’s what he means. Or Google somewhere for Kosteniuk’s annotations of her oppo-bishop ending against Dembo; similar sort of thing later in the game. It’s not about what move to play but the position she’s trying to reach, and once she sees that, everything else is easy.

GMs differ very widely in my experience in their formal knowledge of this sort of thing. Of the ones I know reasonably well I am quite sure William Watson would have no idea about this fortress unless he happened to have run across it in his own games, while Jonathan Parker might well know it. In Holland, I’d guess Timman would probably not only know it but be able to reach down the relevant edition of Grigoriev from his shelves; Stellwagen probably wouldn’t. I’d be staggered if Kiriakov didn’t – classic technically strong well-educated Russian of the old school.
  
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Re: Radjabov-Karjakin, Corus round 2
Reply #4 - 01/16/07 at 14:48:12
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Ptero wrote on 01/15/07 at 22:11:03:
While watching the game live on ICC, GM Kiriakov (aka "Petrovich") predicted the final fortress position sometime before the time control on move 40.  Though to foresee the final outcome as far back as the move 27 would be truly amazing.


I wonder if the discussion above abt Karjakin & his fortress thing is what Kotov meant when he said something abt 'thinking in terms of schemes' (whatever that phrase means) when it comes to the ending stage.

If so.... then it means that Karjakin played to get a fortress setup after he was forced to sac the exchange.

Anyway, Im sure any GM worth his salt would be very familiar with many of the various winning & drawing schemes/setups around. So given a certain position, they would be able to control play & position the pieces such that something similar to that scheme is achieved.

I could be very wrong of course. I'm still trying to figure out what Kotov exactly meant!
  

"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker
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Re: Radjabov-Karjakin, Corus round 2
Reply #3 - 01/15/07 at 22:11:03
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While watching the game live on ICC, GM Kiriakov (aka "Petrovich") predicted the final fortress position sometime before the time control on move 40.  Though to foresee the final outcome as far back as the move 27 would be truly amazing.
  
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OstapBender
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Re: Radjabov-Karjakin, Corus round 2
Reply #2 - 01/15/07 at 21:58:57
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IMJohnCox wrote on 01/15/07 at 10:51:41:
Would be interesting to know whether Karjakin knew this fortress or worked it out. Probably the former - I think even I at some point knew it, although remembering it if it ever matters is another thing altogether.

I'm sure Karjakin must have know the fortress.  What I wonder is whether he had this fortress in mind back on his 27th move when in the following position

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=1r2rbk1/p1qn1pBp/b7/3p4/4...
                          Radjabov-Karjakin
                              Corus 2006
                              after 27.Bxg7

he played 27...Qxc2.

At the official site it is stated:

http://www.coruschess.com/report.php?year=2007&report=2 Quote:
white struck forcefully with 25.d5! Black now had to give his queen for a rook and a minor piece


Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I find it difficult to believe that Black had no other choice than to give up his queen in this position.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Radjabov-Karjakin, Corus round 2
Reply #1 - 01/15/07 at 10:51:41
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Would be interesting to know whether Karjakin knew this fortress or worked it out. Probably the former - I think even I at some point knew it, although remembering it if it ever matters is another thing altogether.
  
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OstapBender
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Radjabov-Karjakin, Corus round 2
01/14/07 at 20:33:37
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Following Radjabov-Karjakin today, I was expecting an easy victory for Radjabov.  Karjakin's defense (drawing the game) is instructive:

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=6k1/5pb1/7p/8/4Q3/6P1/r4P...
                          Radjabov-Karjakin
                              Corus 2006
                              after 35...h6

36.h4 Rd2 37.Qe8+ Bf8 38.Kg2 Rd6 39.Qe5 Re6 40.Qf5 Be7 41.Kh3 Bf8 42.f4 Be7 43.Kg2 Rb6 44.Qh5 Re6 45.Kf3 Rb6 46.Qg4+ Kf8 47.Qh5 Kg7 48.Qd5 Ra6 49.Kg4 Ra3 50.Kh3 Bf6 51.Kg2 Rc3 52.Qf5 Ra3 53.Qg4+ Kh7 54.Qh5 Kg7 55.Qd5 Rc3 56.h5 Re3 57.g4 Re6 58.g5 hxg5 59.fxg5

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=8/5pk1/4rb2/3Q2PP/8/8/6K1...
                          Radjabov-Karjakin
                              Corus 2006
                              after 59.fxg5

59...Bxg5! 60.Qxg5+ Kh7

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=8/5p1k/4r3/6QP/8/8/6K1/8
                          Radjabov-Karjakin
                              Corus 2006
                              after 60...Kh7

Black has a fortress.  See N.Grigoriev, 1917 (diagram below):

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=8/8/1q6/8/5k1p/4R3/5PK1/8
                          N.Grigoriev, 1917

1.Rf3+ Kg4 2.Rh3 Qc6+ 3.Kh2 Qd6+ 4.Kg2 Qd2 5.Re3 =

In Radjabov-Karjakin, White could make no progress.  The game concluded:

61.Kf3 Rh6 62.Qf5+ Kg7 63.Qe5+ Kh7 64.Qe4+ Kg7 65.Qd4+ Kh7 66.Kg4 Re6 67.Kg5 Rh6 68.Qc4 Kg7 69.Qa2 Re6 70.Qa1+ Kh7 71.Kf5 Rh6 72.Qa2 Kg7 73.Qb2+ Kh7 74.Qc3 Re6 75.Kg5 Rh6 76.Qc4 Kg7 77.Qxf7+ Kxf7 78.Kxh6 ½–½

  

RadjabovKarjakin.pgn ( 1 KB | Downloads )

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