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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Palliser's forthcoming Starting Out: The Colle (Read 29961 times)
rooksway18
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Re: Palliser's forthcoming Starting Out: The Colle
Reply #35 - 08/10/09 at 04:09:14
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TopNotch wrote on 06/02/07 at 17:01:28:
ErictheRed wrote on 05/19/07 at 17:53:58:
Oh Richard, did you really have to encourage more Colle players??  I don't think you understand how bad it is down here in the Under 2200 sections of the world's tournaments; only half of my opponents who play 1.d4 have the courage to continue with 2.c4.  Surely London/Colle/Torre players don't need any more encouragement?  Surely you could have paid the bills with a book like: Starting Out: How to Play Chess Like a Man??


Yes the Colle can be a real pain to meet. Last year I found myself as black in the unpleasant situation of trying to win the following position against a 2100:  


1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 c5 3. e3 Nf6 4. c3 Nbd7 5. Nbd2 g6 6. Bd3 Bg7 7. O-O O-O 8. e4 dxe4 9. Nxe4 Nxe4 10. Bxe4 cxd4 11. Nxd4 Nc5

I did eventually manage to win it, but it wasn't pretty. Perhaps 11...Nf6 is a better fighting try for black.

Conclusion: The Colle is a nightmare to face as black if you are the higher rated player trying to win.

Topster Smiley



In the move order TopNotch gave, why not 3...cd 4.ed Bg4? Doesn't that just equalize for black?

Black also has this kind of option a little later in some Colle lines. For example: 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 c5 and now if white tries to stay in Colle/Koltanowski waters with 4.c3 cd, the best white can do is 5.ed but then 5...Bg4 is an Exchange Caro-Kann where black has no problems, right?
  
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Re: Palliser's forthcoming Starting Out: The Colle
Reply #34 - 03/16/09 at 21:41:20
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Dear MNb, many thanks for your kind and wonderful post! Taimanov's suggestions and analysis are simply great...and I like your sharp idea too.
Sorry for the delay, but I've been very busy on a very long and difficult trial. But I've played the 8.h3 variation on the board during a training session for the National Teams Championship. I had a draw, but I missed a win somewhere. And I've studied more deeply the Korchnoi game vs. Grischuk. This post is only to thank you!...and for showing another impressive game of the great Viktor! Annotations are excerpts from Tyomkin's in MB

[Event "Biel GM"]
[Site "Biel"]
[Date "2001.07.24"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Kortschnoj, Viktor"]
[Black "Grischuk, Alexander"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A84"]
[WhiteElo "2617"]
[BlackElo "2669"]
[PlyCount "97"]
[EventDate "2001.07.23"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "10"]
[EventCountry "SUI"]
[EventCategory "16"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2001.11.13"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 c6 4. e3 f5 5. Bd3 Nf6 6. O-O Bd6 7. b3 Qe7 8. Bb2 b6 9. Qc1 Bb7 10. Ba3 Nbd7 11. cxd5 cxd5 12.Bxd6 Qxd6 13. Nc3 a6
14. Qb2 O-O 15. b4 Rac8 16. a4 Ne4 17. Ne2 Qe7 18. Rfc1 Nd6 19. b5 a5 20. Qa3 Rxc1+ 21. Rxc1 Rc8 22. Rxc8+ Nxc8 23. Qc3 Qd6 24. Nf4 Ne7 25.
h4 Nf8 26. h5 Bc8 27. Ne5 Bd7 28. f3 Be8 29. g4 g5 30. Ne2 Nd7 31. Kg2 h6 32. Ng3 fxg4 33. fxg4 Nxe5 34. dxe5 Qc5 35. Qd2 Qc7 36. Qb2 Kg7 37. Ne2 Kg8 38. Kf2 Bf7 39. Qd4 Kg7 40. Qc3 Qb8  41. Nd4 Qd8 42. Ke2 Bg8 43. Bb1 Kh8 44. Qa3 Nc8 45. Bg6 Kg7 46. Bb1 Kh8 47. Qc1 Finally Kortschnoj finds out the way to get in- black can not control at the same time all entries over c' and f' files; Ne7? {Black couldn't hold the defense anyhow, but there was more resistant way:} (47... Na7 48. Qf1 Qe7 49. Nc6 Qg7 50. Qf6) 48. Qf1 Nc8 49. Nc6 (49. Nc6 Qd7 50. Qf8) 1-0

  

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Re: Palliser's forthcoming Starting Out: The Colle
Reply #33 - 01/13/09 at 00:19:26
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You are right and I underestimated good old Taimanov, even if I have sung a lot of praise of him. Here you go.

1.d4 e6
-After 1...d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.Bf4 e6 4.e3 f5 5.c4 Nf6 6.Nc3 Bd6 7.Bd3 0-0 8.h3 White may try the same idea. White has a convincing 70% here.

2.Nf3 f5 3.e3
-3.Bf4 Nf6 4.e3 Be7 and Black will not play ...d5, as Bf4 is ill-placed.
-3.c4 Nf6 4.Nc3 and besides 4...d5 and 4...Be7 Black has 4...Bb4.
So 3.e3 suits the Colleplayer best.
Taimanov: this is more modest than a setup with Bf4, but the bishop can be usefull at home as well.

3...Nf6 4.Bd3 d5 5.c4 c6 6.Nc3 Bd6
Taimanov: too early is 6...Ne4 because of 7.g4 Bb4 (7...fxg4 8.Ne5) 8.Bd2
a)8...Bxc3 9.Bxc3 Nxc3 10.bxc3 0-0 11.0-0 fxg4 12.Ne5 Qh4 13.f4! g3 14.Nf3 Qh3 15.Rb1 Rf6 16.Rb2 Rh6 17.Rg2 gxh2+ 18.Kh1 and White has the advantage, Sokolsky-Zaitsev, corr 1955.
b)8...Qa5 9.gxf5 exf5 10.Qb3 Na6 11.cxd5 Nxd2 12.Nxd2 Bxc3 13.bxc3 Qxd5 14.Rg1 Müller-Olland, corr 1932.

7.Qd1-c2,0-0;8.b2-b3,
Taimanov: 8.h3 deserves attention, eg Ne4 9.g4
a)9...fxg4 10.hxg4 Rxf3 11.Nxe4 dxe4 12.Bxe4 Rf6 13.Bxh7+
b)9...g6 10.gxf5 gxf5 11.a3 (but what about 11.Rg1+!?) Nd7 12.b3 Qe7 13.Bb2 b6 14.Rg1+ Kh8 15.c5 Bc7 16.b4 (I would say 16.cxb6 Nxb6 17.Ke2) bxc5 17.dxc5 e5 18.0-0-0 and White has the better chances, Podgajetz-Karasjev, Odessa 1975.
c)9...Nxc3 10.bxc3 10.bxc3 dxc4 11.Bxc4 fxg4 12.hxg4 Rxf3 13.Qxh7+ Kf7 14.Qh5+ Ke7 15.Qg5+ Kd7 16.Bxe6+ Kc7 17.Qxg7+ with excellent play for the piece (MNb); look at Black's undeveloped pieces.
d)9...Qf6 Maksimovic-Zaitseva, Cetinje 1992 was a premature draw.

8.....,Nb8-d7;9.Bc1-b2,Nf6-e4;10.0-0-0,
Taimanov: after 10.0-0 Rf6 and 11...Rh6 the white King is in danger.
I suggest 10.h3 idea a5 11.g4.

11.g2-g4?,
Taimanov: too early. After 11.h3 the mutual chances are about equal.
White may try 11.c5 Bc7 12.Na4.

11.....a5-a4;
Taimanov: 11...Nxc3 12.Bxc3 fxg4 13.Ne5 (13.Bxh7+ etc) Nxe5 14.dxe5 Ba3+ 15.Kb1 Qh4 and Black is better, Zak-Cholmov, USSRch sf 1951.

12.Nc3xa4,b7-b5;13.c4xb5,
Neverov-Al Sayed, Aeroflot Open 2004, 13...cxb5 and again Black is better.
These two players had a 2400+ rating, but their later errors proves how difficult these positions can be.
  

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Re: Palliser's forthcoming Starting Out: The Colle
Reply #32 - 01/11/09 at 22:06:52
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Dear MNb, thanks for the info. It would be nice if you will share the results of your efforts and some of Taimanov lines. Book is very old, but Taimanov is a great player....and good ideas and plans are never ruined by years.
You are very kind to look at that game and since I'm a weaker player than you...it will be very interesting anyway  Wink
Kind regards
James Ells
  

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Re: Palliser's forthcoming Starting Out: The Colle
Reply #31 - 01/10/09 at 20:17:14
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Taimanov wrote about 30 years ago a book called Damengambit bis Holländisch, in which he gave a few examples of the Dutch Rubinstein Variation, Stonewall, in which White prepared g2-g4. I will look at that game, but remember: I am not that strong either.
  

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Re: Palliser's forthcoming Starting Out: The Colle
Reply #30 - 01/08/09 at 10:58:02
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MNb wrote on 01/07/09 at 10:21:07:
Thanks for the compliment, even though I haven't done my homework. No, I have never played such a setup neither researched it properly. I am just intrigued by a reference in an old book by Taimanov. That ....a7-a5-a4 plan is dangerous indeed and after a superficial look I can think of two remedies:

1) blockade with c4-c5 and Nc3-a4. This is not possible with knights on e5 and e4, as c4-c5 will lose a pawn then.
2) postpone castling a bit.

I am not sure what games of Neverov and Tseitlin you mean. As far as my database can see they both prefer castling kingside.
But I won't recommend against positional setups involving castling kingside.


Dear MNb, thanks for your suggestion: I agree with you and I've been working exactly in those directions. Infact this is the game of Neverov I mean:
[Event "Moscow Aeroflot op"]
[Site "Moscow"]
[Date "2004.02.23"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Neverov, Valeriy"]
[Black "Al Sayed, Mohammed"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A11"]
[WhiteElo "2527"]
[BlackElo "2446"]
[PlyCount "65"]
[EventDate "2004.02.17"]
[EventType "swiss"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "RUS"]
[SourceDate "2004.11.15"]

1. Nf3 d5 2. c4 c6 3. e3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. b3 Nbd7 6. Bb2 Bd6 7. d4 Ne4 8. Bd3 f5 9. Qc2 O-O 10. O-O-O a5 11. g4 a4 12. Nxa4 b5 13. cxb5 c5 14. Nxc5 Ndxc5 15.dxc5 Nxc5 16. gxf5 Rxa2 17. Rhg1 e5 18. f6 Qxf6 19. Bxh7+ Kh8 20. Ng5 Ne6 21.f4 Nxg5 22. fxg5 Qe7 23. Kb1 Rxb2+ 24. Kxb2 e4 25. Bg6 Be5+ 26. Kb1 Qa7 27. Qa2 Qxe3 28. Rge1 Qxg5 29. Rxd5 Qxg6 30. Rxe5 e3+ 31. Kc1 Bb7 32. Qe2 Qh6 33. Kb1 1-0

Everything looks simple: the gm delayed castling and attacked the kingside. So far so good. It seems to me a very simple and straightforward plan. But if Black plays 13...cxb5 White is simply worse. I can't imagine what Neverov intended to play after this. But I'm a weak player...so I don't know. If you or someone else have a different opinion of the position, I 'm ready to change my mind.
So far I gave up the idea of long casting, and decided to follow the gm's most principled plan: short castle and attacking on the queenside. Top players play like this, maybe is not the most wild scheme of play, but in this way I can follow good and very strong path. I don't know which old book of Taimanov you refer to, but it could be useful.
James Ells


  

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Re: Palliser's forthcoming Starting Out: The Colle
Reply #29 - 01/07/09 at 10:21:07
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Thanks for the compliment, even though I haven't done my homework. No, I have never played such a setup neither researched it properly. I am just intrigued by a reference in an old book by Taimanov. That ....a7-a5-a4 plan is dangerous indeed and after a superficial look I can think of two remedies:

1) blockade with c4-c5 and Nc3-a4. This is not possible with knights on e5 and e4, as c4-c5 will lose a pawn then.
2) postpone castling a bit.

I am not sure what games of Neverov and Tseitlin you mean. As far as my database can see they both prefer castling kingside.
But I won't recommend against positional setups involving castling kingside.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Palliser's forthcoming Starting Out: The Colle
Reply #28 - 01/06/09 at 16:34:00
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MNb wrote on 12/31/08 at 20:36:17:
James_Ells wrote on 12/31/08 at 18:01:23:
Anyway I think your variation of the stonewall slav is a bit better than the sharper line Palliser offers. His Main line is the game Korchnoi - Yusupov, Montpellier Candidates 1985 but as I wrote before, the great Viktor later deviates when faced Grischuk and scored an impressive win. Palliser in his notes on page 240 offers a sharper alternative: 6.Nc3 Bd6 7.h3 0-0 8.g4 but I've found in Mega 2008 and CBM a few games with this line and the results don't seem so good for white. What do you think about it? Maybe is it simply a transposition of the line you gave?

I don't really know, but my instinct tells me to castle queenside first. This is part of the plan with g2-g4 anyway so why forcing matters at an earlier stage? In general I think it's a good strategy to keep options open. In this case it means: play preparatory moves until the moment is right for g2-g4. In some cases White might want to play Ne5 and/or Rdg1 first, in other cases the move g2-g4 might be strong as a gambit etcetera.


Dear MNb, your instinct is well provided with a good dose of chess wisdom. I agree with you, and I had done my homeworks on this variation. I've checked Aagaard book on the Stonewall and Schipkov CD...this line is (also) a Dutch afterall. Both these sources give a very little on the plan with long castiling and the g4 push. Sadly I think with good reasons. The g pawn push works better (or only) when white hasn't committed the King's Knight early. In fact Chris Ward offers in his repertoire book the line with a early and qiuck g4 against the stonewall slav, but without an early Nf3. I've played some games with my sparring partner Frizt, but the queenside attack by black strikes first. I've followed a couple of games of the gm Neiverov ad Tsetlin (sorry if I don't write the names correctly but I haven't my databases aside now). They adopted the plan with long castling and Neiverov met the a5 push (which scared me most) in a very direct way, but Black play can be easily improved with clear results: black is clearly better in every variation...and Fritz shows me that Angry
Aagaard in his book on the Stonewall Dutch stated the h3 g4 plan is too slow to worry Black. His analisys and assesment of the positions seem good and fair to me.
So now I'm convinced that the best plan is to meet the Stonewall Slav in 'Colle Style', delaying the development of the queen's knight, fianchettoing the queen's bishop and castling short. I'm studying some games of Korchnoi, Aronian, Ivanchuck and Bauer and I'm very happy so far. Next I'm planning to came back to Aagaard and Schipkov for studying a bit deeper the plan with Ne5 and f4. I don't know if you play these variations, but what do you think about it? For what's is worth I think in the next national teams championship, I'will follow Korchnoi's plan if I'll face the Slav Stonewall
James Ells
  

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Re: Palliser's forthcoming Starting Out: The Colle
Reply #27 - 12/31/08 at 20:36:17
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James_Ells wrote on 12/31/08 at 18:01:23:
Anyway I think your variation of the stonewall slav is a bit better than the sharper line Palliser offers. His Main line is the game Korchnoi - Yusupov, Montpellier Candidates 1985 but as I wrote before, the great Viktor later deviates when faced Grischuk and scored an impressive win. Palliser in his notes on page 240 offers a sharper alternative: 6.Nc3 Bd6 7.h3 0-0 8.g4 but I've found in Mega 2008 and CBM a few games with this line and the results don't seem so good for white. What do you think about it? Maybe is it simply a transposition of the line you gave?

I don't really know, but my instinct tells me to castle queenside first. This is part of the plan with g2-g4 anyway so why forcing matters at an earlier stage? In general I think it's a good strategy to keep options open. In this case it means: play preparatory moves until the moment is right for g2-g4. In some cases White might want to play Ne5 and/or Rdg1 first, in other cases the move g2-g4 might be strong as a gambit etcetera.
  

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Re: Palliser's forthcoming Starting Out: The Colle
Reply #26 - 12/31/08 at 18:01:23
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@MNb Thanks for your reply. Indeed the systems you suggest are quite sharp and I like them. But in the move order you gave, I play 3.e4!? a menacing gambit that serves me well otb at my level (2084). I've got 3 wins in a row when facing 1...e6 2...f5 following some games of N. Povah.
Anyway I think your variation of the stonewall slav is a bit better than the sharper line Palliser offers. His Main line is the game Korchnoi - Yusupov, Montpellier Candidates 1985 but as I wrote before, the great Viktor later deviates when faced Grischuk and scored an impressive win. Palliser in his notes on page 240 offers a sharper alternative: 6.Nc3 Bd6 7.h3 0-0 8.g4 but I've found in Mega 2008 and CBM a few games with this line and the results don't seem so good for white. What do you think about it? Maybe is it simply a transposition of the line you gave?
@ Beetlejuice Thanks! I'm well booked up with some (almost all) database and I like the slow slav. It can become extremely sharp with g-pawn push and opposite casting. I agree with you that the only way to fight for an advantage in the anti Colle with c6 is picking up the Slav. And I love the Latvian attack even more. In the line James Vigus named the Errot...I like following the steps of Sasikirian when beated the Slav expert Predojevic in 2007. But undoubtely the line with 5...Bh5 is more solid and....less funny! In my experience the line with Bb4 for Black is the most annoying to meet.
I don't think I willl buy Avrukh's book. So far I want to stick to my new repertoire. Changing openings every six months is a very bad idea imo. But if I'm not asking too much...would you be so kind to show me the line Avrukh suggests? In particular against Bb4. Maybe quoting the game (only players, year and tournament of course!).
Thanks in advance for your kind reply. And Happy new year to everybody!
James Ells  
  

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Re: Palliser's forthcoming Starting Out: The Colle
Reply #25 - 12/31/08 at 15:37:44
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I have played the Colle (proper) earlier as my main 1. d4 d5 choice. It is still my "second choice" after going back do d4-c4 openings.

My experience - agreeing with most authors - is that if Black plays an Anti-Colle line, i.e. something else than 3.- e6 after 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. e3, you should in most cases stay away from attempt to avoid c2-c4, trying to stay in "Colle land". After 3.- Bf5 you probably have nothing better than switching to the "slow Slav" (normally 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3) with e.g. 4. c4 c6 5. Nc3.

MNb wrote on 12/31/08 at 00:15:58:
James_Ells wrote on 12/30/08 at 23:44:08:
2) The Stonewall with White committed with e3

The Colle is quite dangerous here. You will need a database as the books don't pay much attention afIk.


Well, there is actually a new book that plays attention to this, namely (once again!) Avrukh's GM repertoire 1. d4, vol. 1 having a 6 page chapter starting from the position after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 e6 4. e3 f5 (called "The Stonewall Slav" - nice name).

Same book also deals with the slow Slav.
  
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Re: Palliser's forthcoming Starting Out: The Colle
Reply #24 - 12/31/08 at 00:15:58
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James_Ells wrote on 12/30/08 at 23:44:08:
2) The Stonewall with White committed with e3


The Colle is quite dangerous here. You will need a database as the books don't pay much attention afIk.

1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.e3 (no early c4, so White avoids ...Bb4+) Nf6 4.Bd3
a) 4...d5 5.c4 (as ...Bb4+ makes less sense now) c6 6.Nc3 Bd6 7.Qc2 0-0 8.b3 followed by 9.Bb2, 10.0-0-0 and preparing g2-g4.
b) 4...Be7 5.c4 0-0 6.Nc3 d6 7.0-0 followed by 8.Re1 and 9.e4.
c) 4...b6 5.0-0 Bb7 6.c4 followed by 7.Nc3 evt. 8.d5.
  

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Re: Palliser's forthcoming Starting Out: The Colle
Reply #23 - 12/30/08 at 23:44:08
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Dear Mr. Snow,
thanks for your kind reply. Sincerely I was looking for a bit deeper variations but i really appreciate your help. Indeed. Since my last post I've purchased Palliser book on the Colle. Great book by the way. So I've added the Colle proper to my repertoire. I take chess very seriously and I used to work hard on my openings...so I have Olenikov and Bronzik too. But some suggestions of anti colle don't like me much. For now I'm still searching for a sharper line against the schelecter and the stonewall for black. Palliser brefly mention the schelecter with no suggestion and his 'antidote' for the stonewall seems to me a bit slow. He quoted a game of Korchnoi..but the great man himself varied later and crushed Grischuk...if my memory doesn't fall.
So I'd like to share opinions on three anti colle (with the white pieces of course!):
1) The Schelecter Slav (quite passive but...an hard nut to crack)
2) The Stonewall with White committed with e3
3) 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5
But obviously if you - or others members - want to discuss or share opinions on other lines, you are welcome.
I'm an former e4 player and before I've met the Colle, I've used to play this variations with white:
Vs Nf6 Trompowsky
QGA 3.Cf3 7..e4!? gambit
QGD Af4 system and possibly castling long
Slav Geller Gambit modern variation
Semi Slav Latvian attack
But this is another story....
Maybe I'm a bit naive and I apologize with Mr. Rudel...but I don't think I will buy his book...It could be wonderful and in his forum I've found interesting new ideas but I can't stand the cover of the book! Sorry...but it really puts me off!
I apologise if my english is not so good.
Thanks in advance....and Happy new Year!
James Ells
  

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Re: Palliser's forthcoming Starting Out: The Colle
Reply #22 - 12/29/08 at 01:19:33
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James_Ells wrote on 09/28/08 at 17:44:18:
Dear IM Palliser,
first of all I beg your pardon if my english is not so good. I hope it's understandable enough. My copy of d-pawn attack is just arrived and I'm very glad with it. A very good and clear explanation of plans and ideas plus an in-depth coverage of the theory (for a Starting Out series book). I like the fresh and sharp new ideas even  the riskier ones. Most of all I appreciate your honesty on page 7 and so on in the evaluation of the positions. Both when you assessing the variations and judge in an objectively fair manner the possibility for White...and Black. Every single player with some skill and experience knows that there aren't winning openings or magic tricks on the board. Thanks anyway for offering in each case a try for White for complicate and seek the fight. So far so good. But...Sorry, but I'm a bit disappointing when I've read on pages 8 and 126 that the deviations on  second and third Black's move are missing. I really understand the space (and marketing) reasons and I'm not so naive expecting a full repertoire as in Play 1d4! so I'm not complaining if the Dutch or the Semi-Benoni are missing. But since in your other book on the Colle there'is a whole section on the anti Colle.....I'm going too far if I ask you to show (not in detail of course) a summary of the missing variations? On my shelf I've had a copy of Play 1d4! but I wonder if the anti Colle lines are a bit sharper than the ones given in that book. Sincerely I'm not interested with the Colle proper...and I've pay 49.50€ for this two books. I'm not regretting a single cent - they are great books - but....
Thanks in advance!
James Ells   



If you're really serious about this repertoire I'd suggest getting Palliser's Starting out: the colle book that you mentioned and Rudel's Zuke Em as both offer some interesting tries against the anti-colle systems.

I suppose any Black deviation from 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6 could be considered an Anti-Colle but here are the main ones.

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c5 (2...c6, 2...e6, 2...Nc6 also have their nuances)
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 c5
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 Bg4
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 Bf5
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 Nc6
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 c6

  
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saubhikr
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Re: Palliser's forthcoming Starting Out: The Colle
Reply #21 - 09/29/08 at 03:18:12
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Richard,

What about 1.d4 d5  2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 version of Colle-Z ? Here black has not played the e6 move. Does your book cover this ? If not what do you propose to white ?

Note: I made 210% out of your 1.d4 book. So extremely excited when you picked up Colle !!!

Souvik
  
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