parisestmagique wrote on 06/08/07 at 08:12:59:


White's play is routine and Mamedyarov equalises effortlessly and then it's easy to apply 300 rating points superiority to convert that into a win. What'sinteresting is that I can find hardly Mamedyarov Pirc games in Mega2007. I suppose it's a handy weapon for not giving away any opening prep to the other big guns.

Yes the Pirc is very bad, easy to beat, bla bla bla ... look at this one :
(2) Miralles,G (2486) - Mamedyarov,S (2757) [B07]
TOP 16 Clichy (8.2), 31.05.2007
1.d4 g6 2.e4 d6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.0-0-0 b5 7.Bd3 b4 8.Nce2 Qa5 9.Kb1 c5 10.Nf3 Bb7 11.dxc5 Nxc5 12.a3 Nfxe4 13.Bxe4 Nxe4 14.Qxb4 Qxb4 15.axb4 Bg7 16.Nf4 0-0 17.Rhe1 Rfb8 18.Nd2 Nf6 19.f3 Bc6 20.c3 a5 21.bxa5 Rxa5 22.Rc1 Bb5 23.Kc2 Ra2 24.Kb3 Rba8 25.Nb1 Ra1 26.Na3 Ba4+ 27.Kc4 Ra2 28.Nd3 e6 29.Bf4 e5 30.Bg5 d5+ 31.Kc5 Bf8+ 32.Kb6 Nd7+ 33.Kc7 Ra7+ 34.Kc8 Nb6+ 35.Kb8 Rd7 0-1

Forgot to mention 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 6.0-0-0 c6 7.f3 b5 8.h4 h5 9.g4!? which might be even stronger than 9.Bh6 first.

MNb: "4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Qa5 and 8.Bd3 is too timid; 8.0-0-0 is the move, intending b5 9.e5! Safer is 8.o-o-o Be6, but I think White can maintain some advantage."

I didn't find anything worrying for Black in the following game (annotated by Zakharevich in Informator 86):
J.Geller-I.Zakharevich, St Petersburg 2002 1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 d6 4. Be3 Nf6 5. Qd2 c6 6. Bh6 Bxh6 7. Qxh6 Qa5 8. O-O-O b5 9. e5 dxe5 10. dxe5 Ng4 11. Qg7
Rf8 12. Ne4 Bf5 13. h3 Bxe4 14. hxg4 Nd7 15. e6 fxe6 16. Qd4 Bd5 17. a3 e5 18. Qe3 b4 19. f3 bxa3 20. Qxa3 Qxa3 1/2-1/2
But this is all very tricky and hasn't been much covered in books, so I can well imagine you could have something up your sleeve here...

I’ll respond to some of MNb’s analysis of 4 Be3 Bg7 5 Qd2 0-0 in notes to a game I played a few weeks ago – it wasn’t so well played, especially by me, but still might illustrate some ideas.

Marco Thinius (2365) – James Vigus (2311)
Jena 2007
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0–0 6.0–0–0 c6 7.f3
7.Kb1 b5 8.f3 Nbd7 9.e5?! was the above-mentioned Parligras-Jobava game. It soon turned nasty for White. Instead 9.h4 e5!? (MNb) along the lines of Ree-Donner, and also some games by Spartaco Sarno who plays this line brilliantly with Black, looks a very interesting idea; there is also 9...h5!? Black does need to resist better than in that Hall-Ghiacco game (9...Nb6?!).
7...b5 8.g4
Rushing with 8 Bh6 can get White into trouble as in Mola-Sarno (as MNb notes).
8.h4!? (MNb) has the subtle point of preventing Black's immediate counterplay with ...Qa5 and ...Be6, i.e. 8...Qa5 9.Kb1 Be6 10.Nd5 Qxd2 11.Nxe7+ Kh8 12.Bxd2 Re8 13.d5 and Black has big problems. With the pawn on g4 rather than h4, Black would have ...Nxe4! here (see below). In this position it seems insufficient.
However, 8 h4 also has a drawback: Black can hold up the kingside pawnstorm with 8...h5 (this must be played in conjunction with ...b5, not just ...Nbd7 and ...e5 as Lo Kim Lin played against MNb) e.g. 9.Kb1 Re8 10.Bg5 Qa5 11.a3 Nbd7 12.g4 Bao,Q (2376)-Sarno,S (2385)/Mallorca 2004/CBM 104 - a remarkable game by the way - and here one possibility is 12...b4 13.Na2 hxg4 with good play for Black. This was rather feeble play by White, who might try 9.Bh6 in accordance with MNb's game. But now Black's development displays its coiled spring: 9...b4 10.Nce2 Qa5 11.Kb1 Be6 12.Nc1 Nbd7 White no doubt has his birthright "plus equals" in this position, and I wouldn't fancy it against Topalov. But it looks totally playable to me (13 Nh3!? Nb6!?). I'd be curious to know the opinions of Sicilian Dragon players (and slayers).
8...Qa5 9.Kb1 Be6 10.a3?!
Here Thinius thought for a long time about 10.Nd5 but decided that the queen-exchange was no good to him. The tournament situation meant that he had to win this game, but I imagine in general 10 Nd5 is a difficult move for White to play having warmed up with Be3, f3 and 0–0–0... 10...Qxd2 and now 11.Nxe7+!? only appears once on my database, but could do with further investigation. (11.Nxf6+ Bxf6 12.Rxd2 Bc4!? as in Sveshnikov-Saricevic, is for sure a bit better for White, but I didn't mind going in for this. There has also been a nice game by Giaccio with 11...exf6 12.Rxd2 d5 which stakes Black's claim in the centre.) After 11 Nxe7+ a possible line is 11...Kh8 12.Bxd2 Re8 13.d5 Nxe4 14.Be1 Rxe7 15.dxe6 Nc5 16.exf7 d5 Again, perhaps some sort of edge for White, but does anyone have a different opinion on this line?
10.b3 b4 11.Na4 c5 12.g5 Nh5 13.dxc5 Nc6! is Yudasin-Anand (1991) - unclear at this stage but a vigorous win for Black. White's "Dragon-style" attack on the kingside has ground to an abrupt halt.
10...Qc7?!
Too tame. We both wondered about the line 10...b4 11.Na2!? Bxa2+ 12.Kxa2 c5 13.dxc5 Nc6 which I then kicked myself for not playing.
11.Bh6 a5?
A pawn "sacrifice". It was much better to take on h6 first (a surprisingly common theme in this line), so that the king doesn't get dragged to g7.
12.Bxg7 Kxg7 13.d5
Black is often pleased to see this move (producing a Sicilian structure at some cost of time to White), but here it is obviously strong.
13...Bd7
The problem is that  13...cxd5 14.g5 can't be met by ...b4 as usual because White takes on f6 with check.
14.g5 Nh5 15.dxc6 Nxc6 16.Bxb5 Rab8 17.a4 Rfc8 18.Nge2 Nb4 19.Bxd7 Qxd7 20.Nd4 Kg8 21.Ndb5 Qe6 22.Rhf1 Nf4! 23.Rf2 Qe5 24.h4 Rc4 and by now my compensation was beginning to feel plausible, though something horrible happened later (1-0). 

5...0-0 is risky indeed. But in my opinion risky for both sides, not just Black. There remains much to explore in the above lines 

Re JEH’s note on 4 Be3 c6 5 h3 Nbd7 6 f4 Qb6, Avrukh’s suggestion of 7 Qc1 (instead of 7 a3, Movsesian-Cekro) looks very good to me. 7…d5 8 e5 Nh5 9 Nge2 or 8…Ne4?! does look like computer chess, but what else does Black do? If the idea is 7…c5 8 Nf3, I think Black should have played the Dragon in the first place! 5…Qb6 6 Qc1 Nbd7 7 f4 might transpose. If Black wants to try an early queen move, 5…Qa5!? might be the way.

Quote:


Though Parligras-Jobava 2004 was heartening for Black,  I'd think twice after seeing a game like this:

Hall,J (2450) - Giaccio,A (2350) [B07]
La Coruna op La Coruna, 1993

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.f3 c6 6.Qd2 0-0 7.0-0-0 b5 8.Kb1 Nbd7 9.h4 Nb6 10.Bh6 Be6 11.Bxg7 Kxg7 12.h5 b4 13.hxg6 bxc3 14.Qh6+ Kg8 15.g7 Re8 16.e5 Bf5 17.exf6 Nd5 18.Bd3 Bxd3 19.Rxd3 Nxf6 20.Ne2 Qa5 21.g4 cxb2 22.Ng3 1-0

and after a series of natural moves by both sides, Black is destroyed with White's Kingside still at home!

As an aside, after 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5. h3 Nbd7 6. f4 Qb6 7. Qc1
Fritz is convinced that 7. ...d5 is =, and then after 8. e5 Nh5 it wants to put its Knight on g7! it's still convinced this is =, so maybe there is hope for humanity or it's come up with a genius Knight fiancetto. Looking at this Nh5 does raise some interesting tactical points around White's weak dark squares at f4 and g3, e.g. Bf2 is met by Nxf4 as the Qc1 is overloaded. Also cf the Movsesian-Cekro game where Black missed 11. ...Bxf4! on the same theme.

But then you can't alway trust computers. The following is a line I've done a lot of homework on, and I found Fritz's suggestion after

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 c5 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.e5 Ng4 8.e6 Bxb5 9.exf7+ Kd7 10.Nxb5 Qa5+ 11.Nc3 cxd4 12.Nxd4 h5 13.h3 Nc6 14.Nde2 Nh6 15.Be3 Nf5 16.Bf2

... amusing. Now Black has tried a few different moves here, but no human has tried Fritz's bold suggestion of Ke6 

Happy Pircing,

JEH

James Vigus,
I wouldn't worry too much about missing Jansa as a source. He gives a repertoire against the Pirc based on 4...c6 5.h3 (which he takes credit for developing along with Sveshnikov) and 4...Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 7.Bh6, with only brief mention of many of Black's sidelines, although I really like his format with training questions in between the theory. If you consulted all the standard sources (and especially Erenburg's theory database in CBM 93, which I only discovered a few days ago) I doubt the Jansa book has much to add. What I gave in my post is literally all he has to say on ...Qb6-lines, and that is only with white committed to f4, via 5...Bg7 6.f4 Qb6.

After 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Qb6 6.a3 (!) I really want to play 6...Nbd7 to meet  7.f4?! with e5! which Erenburg likes for Black (thanks again to JEH!)

[Event "BIH-chT"]
[Site "Neum"]
[Date "2002.06.04"]
[Round "4.3"]
[White "Movsesian, Sergei"]
[Black "Cekro, Ekrem"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B07"]
[WhiteElo "2624"]
[BlackElo "2419"]

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Be3 c6 5. h3 Nbd7 6. f4 Qb6 7. a3 e5 8. Nf3 Bh6
9. g3 Nh5 10. Qc1 Nxg3 11. dxe5 Qd8 12. Rg1 Nxf1 13. Rxf1 dxe5 14. fxe5 Bg7 15.
Bh6 O-O 16. Bxg7 Kxg7 17. Qd2 Qe7 18. Qh2 a5 19. O-O-O a4 20. Rd4 Ra5 21. Rxa4
Rc5 22. Qg3 Nxe5 23. Nd4 Kh8 24. Nb3 Rc4 25. Ra8 Kg7 26. Qe3 Bxh3 27. Rxf8 Bxf1
28. Ra8 Qf6 29. Kb1 Ng4 30. Qg3 Ne5 31. Re8 Nf3 32. Qb8 Rxc3 33. bxc3 Bc4 34.
Rg8+ Kh6 35. Qf8+ Kg5 36. Qc5+ Ne5 37. Re8 Be6 38. Nd4 b5 39. Nxe6+ fxe6 40.
Rf8 Qg7 41. Qe3+ Kh4 42. Rf1 1-0

So White may try instead 7.Nf3 Bg7 and now 8.Bd3 Qc7 is similar to the line 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be3 c6 6.Qd2 Qa5!? where the Queen likewise drops back to c7 soon. If white tries e5 on move 7 or 8 Black just goes ...Nd5 and if White exchanges b2 is hanging again. But your idea here would be 8.Bc4 Qc7  (8...Nxe4 9.Bxf7+ again looks uncomfortable) 9.Ba2! (9.0-0 d5!? 10.exd5 Nb6) and maybe you could argue that the active bishop on a2 is an improvement on the classical Be2-lines?

In the Austrian 6.Be3 b6, I failed to find the Martin analysis you referred to; which game was he analysing? My computer seems to think that after 15...Bh6 16.Bxe7 Bxf4+ 17.Kb1 Re8 18.Bg5 Ne3 19.Rc5, 19...Nd7 improves on Martin, although Black will have to accept a worsening of his pawn structure (the e5-pawn recapturing on f4) in return for a lead in development. I need to look at these lines in much more detail when I find the time!

As an aside there is actually a significant transposition between my two "problem lines": If Black answers the Austrian 6.Be3 with c6 (played by Tseshkovsky and Morozevich) White can reply 7.h3!? and suddenly we're in one of Jansa's 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 main lines.

I'm really looking forward to that book now, the time really has come for a major Pirc theory update 

Quote:


A couple of advantages of 4. ...Bg7 are

1. It doesn't commit Black's c file plan.
2. It can be reached via the Modern move order.

TopNotch made an interesting comment in another thread that certain types of attacking players have great diffculty playing against the Pirc. He never elaborated, but I could only thing I could think of was certain attacking players prefer wide open positions which you don't really get in the Pirc. Food for thought.