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JEH
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Re: Pirc
Reply #14 - 03/02/07 at 13:12:51
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Here are some more thoughts on this. Firstly, one tempo can make the Once White has played f3, f4 or Nf3, they are mostly commited to a particular plan of attack. Once Black has played c6, c5 or Nc6, they are mostly commited to a particular plan of defence.

So Black wants White to commit first. Now 4. Be3 is a good waiting move at it fits in with all of White's plans. It also has the effect of kind of taking away Bg7 away as a waiting more for Black since the Qd2 and Bh6 plan can be played saving a tempo. Also the Nbd7 "waiting move" can be a problem as often Black wants to keep d7 free for the f6 Knight to meet e5 or g5.

It seems then that Black has to commit first to c6. Now 5. h3 is even more annoying as its forcing Black to commit further and give White more in the war of information. So 5. ...Qb6 though isn't really a play for the b2 pawn, but a preparation for c5, counting that the tempos lost to switch to the c5 and redeploying the Queen (she doesn't really belong on b6) will be made up by the tempos White has "lost" by h3 and Qc1.  
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Stigma
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Re: Pirc
Reply #13 - 03/02/07 at 03:13:03
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JEH wrote on 02/28/07 at 20:26:19:
Stigma wrote on 02/28/07 at 09:37:23:
1)  4.Be3 c6 5.h3!

(...)
An interesting idea seems to be 5. ...Qb6. I've got a couple of game refs scribbled in my PA! margins, Goloshchapov-Baklan, Istanbul 2003 and Movsesian - Cekro, 2002

Stigma wrote on 02/28/07 at 09:37:23:
2) Austrian Attack 5...0-0 6.Be3!


In this line played by Colin "Mr Pirc" McNab, it seems Black has to walk a tightrope to equality, but it seems to be there (16. ...Bf4).  Doing that in practice is another thing though.
(...)


Thanks for the comments JEH.

1) The Qb6 lines score OK for Black in practice, so should be a place to look. After 5...Bg7 6.f4 Qb6 Jansa feels White is "simply walking on grass" after 7.Qc1! (as opposed to the "thorny bush" 7.Qd2 Qxb2), though he admits that Black is more or less alive after both 7...0-0 8.Bd3 Na6 [as in Goloshchapov-Baklan] and 7...Qa5. I notice though that Black's successes against Qc1 mostly depend on preparing c5 with ...Na6, while in the Cekro game 7.a3 was rendered doubtful with a 5...Nbd7 move order. So maybe the deep point of playing Qb6 on move five is to force white to reveal how he will cover b2 (Qc1 or a3) before committing to either Bg7/Na6 or Nbd7!? I have no idea what happens if White tries to arrange g4 after Qb6 though.

2) Assuming you mean 15...Bh6 16.Bxe7 Bxf4, that looks like a serious improvement on Svidler and McNabs play! Nice work!  Wink
I don't see an advantage for White here, after say 17.Kb1 Re8 18.Ba3 a6!?, taking away the b5 square from Bf1 in preparation of Nc6. Both sides have pawn majorities and White must worry about the e3 square. I will look at some earlier deviations for White before I conclude, but the Pirc suddenly looks more interesting again!
  

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JEH
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Re: Pirc
Reply #12 - 02/28/07 at 20:26:19
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Stigma wrote on 02/28/07 at 09:37:23:
1)  4.Be3 c6 5.h3!


I agree with Tiger's comments on Pirc Alert here. My copy of Pirc Alert is riddled with notes and improvements, but I think that's been part of the fun of using it. I've got 6 improvements on pages 380-382 alone! So I'm looking foward to what Mr Vigus has to say on the Arch-Bishop, or maybe it should be the Arch-Enemy  Smiley

An interesting idea seems to be 5. ...Qb6. I've got a couple of game refs scribbled in my PA! margins, Goloshchapov-Baklan, Istanbul 2003 and Movsesian - Cekro, 2002

Stigma wrote on 02/28/07 at 09:37:23:
2) Austrian Attack 5...0-0 6.Be3!


In this line played by Colin "Mr Pirc" McNab, it seems Black has to walk a tightrope to equality, but it seems to be there (16. ...Bf4).  Doing that in practice is another thing though.

This line is mostly moot for me as I play 5. ...c5 against the Austrian, but I've ventured 5. ...0-0 occassionally to try out some of my TNs in the 6. ...Nc6 line. So I've not had to meet this line in practice either Shocked. My plan though was to play 6. ...Nbd7 and 7. ...c5 against it.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Stigma
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Re: Pirc
Reply #11 - 02/28/07 at 09:37:23
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The Pirc used to be my main defence (with good results), but I now think Black is in trouble in two different main lines:

1)  4.Be3 c6 5.h3! intending f4
I recommend the analysis of this in Jansa's Dynamic Chess Strategy, and Hillarp Persson claims (in the introduction to "Tiger's Modern") to have busted Pirc Alert's main line against it. (Maybe the h3-g4 lines are good too, I don't know much about them...)

2) Austrian Attack 5...0-0 6.Be3!
The combined impression of games like J. Polgar-Smirin 2000 and Shirov-McNab 2006 really discourages me. It's not just that white may be 'theoretically' better. With play both in the centre and on the h-file, I find the white side much easier to play in practice, and that's what counts. Perhaps Black can eventually escape with a draw after 5...c5 instead, but that's not why I play the Pirc!

Any thoughts on these two problem lines? I am certainly curious to see how Vigus will try to save my old darling  Huh
  

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Keano
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Re: Pirc
Reply #10 - 02/28/07 at 08:54:50
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I agree with the last few posts - I prefer the French Defence, which may have a slightly better reputation but is still frowned upon it seems by the top players in the world. Bottom line is - it doesnt matter! Play what you like, what suits you and what you enjoy playing, and ...eh ... also what seems to work for you and gets you results. So if you like the Pirc play it! Also note that there are plenty of pretty successful GM´s playing Pirc and French - just because Anand and Leko dont do this stuff doesnt mean we cant.
  
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Antillian
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Re: Pirc
Reply #9 - 02/27/07 at 13:26:07
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One key advantage in playing the Pirc I may add is the lack of theory....relatively speaking of course.

I concede that In the Austrian attack, Black really needs to know his theory to avoid getting slaughtered. And perhaps in the Byrne to a certain extent. But, by and large, other than that, Black really can get by knowing key ideas.

But in truth, if one were to speak objectively, the Pirc is a poor choice for equalizing as Black. But again, let's not get carried away with talk of theoretical advantages and such.  I see the opening as a vehicle  to get positions that you like and with which you are familar and comfortable with a deep understanding of the ideas and themes in order to give you a good chacne to outplay your opponent.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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JEH
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Re: Pirc
Reply #8 - 02/27/07 at 13:15:17
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Quote:
I can add another elite player opinion about the Pirc: I once played against Nigel Short with black, a game that started 1 e4 d6. Commenting the game he wrote (something similar to) that he doesen´t like the pirc/modern  because it gives white many options and most of them lead to a slight white advantage.


To me, that's one of the advantages of the Pirc in that I can play a lot of different positions with ideas from other openings (Lopez, Philidor, Dragon, Benoni, Kings Indian, even Caro-Kann and French sometimes). There might be a debate as to whether the best reply to 1. e4 is 1. ...c5 or 1. ...e5, but with the Pirc I get to play both!

However it wouldn't suit a Mr One Plan who only wants to play the same position game after game.

Also the lack of interest at the top level is a positive boon as the theory doesn't change much.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Marc Narciso
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Re: Pirc
Reply #7 - 02/27/07 at 11:28:35
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slates wrote on 01/27/07 at 21:33:51:
And if I may quote Rowson's 'Chess for Zebras' he relates that he was chatting to Michael Adams about the 'various problems with 1.e4' when Adams remarked that there were indeed difficulties, particularly in certain Sicilians, saying 'well, you can't play against the Pirc every day'.

Rowson adds that the elite players consider it 'too generous to White', whilst noting that Pirc players should not take offence at that observation - they should simply accept that at the highest levels the defence isn't played much, and there's a reason that is so....but at sub 2500 level it probably doesn't matter, according to Rowson himself.  

I think Stohl made a similar remark about the Pirc in his 'Instructive Modern Chess Masterpieces' book.  So I suppose what I'm trying to say is that it is perhaps incorrect to think that it equalizes easier than any other opening ( Shocked) as condor suggests, and that the statistics shouldn't be trusted on that one.....  The Sicilian would probably take the title of most likely to equalize, arguably. Wink


I can add another elite player opinion about the Pirc: I once played against Nigel Short with black, a game that started 1 e4 d6. Commenting the game he wrote (something similar to) that he doesen´t like the pirc/modern  because it gives white many options and most of them lead to a slight white advantage.

So it´s true, the strongest players in the world don´t have much faith in the Pirc, and that´s one of the reasons I like it.

   


  
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Antillian
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Re: Pirc
Reply #6 - 02/20/07 at 11:57:31
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nyoke wrote on 02/20/07 at 10:31:33:
Vigus' forhtcoming book ??


http://www.everymanchess.com/display.php?id=295
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Re: Pirc
Reply #5 - 02/20/07 at 10:31:33
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Vigus' forhtcoming book ??
  
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Re: Pirc
Reply #4 - 01/28/07 at 14:16:56
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The Archbishop.

Regarding
e4 d6
d4 Nf6
Nc3 g6
Be3 c6
h3(!)

check out the section in Vigus' forthcoming book on the Pirc. section on 'The Archbishop' as we christened it (cos we came up with it in Canterbury) ideas of an extended fianchetto with g4. also other stuff with f4, qf3 as you like. launched in Bibby-Mcnab, cant remember when, though dismal finishing meant ball didnt find the net. seems some Finns also did some stuff on it independently according to Yrjola and tella. Better 'Finnishing' from them one doth presume.

Also look at Si Williams brilliancy prize win at hastings (jan 2007) and the svidler - ivanchuk game (Lugo ch-ESP tt 2006) for ideas.

duff against modern move order tho - black just hippoes it with e6 and ne7, after  a6, b5, nd7. chuck c5 in.

cheers,

Si
  
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Re: Pirc
Reply #3 - 01/27/07 at 21:35:02
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condor wrote on 01/26/07 at 14:20:47:
Is there any way white can attain an advantage against the Pirc? According to NCO, with best play black can equalise. The best try was I think 1 e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6 4 Be3 c6 5 h3 or 5 Qd2.

Does anyone know the status of these lines or any other attempts for a white advantage?



I could never understand why we obsess so much about theoretical advantages. I think more important that playing an opening that according to some NCO gives a += is to find a system that suits you and which you understand well.

Nonetheless, I would as a Pirc player, IMHPO, I  would say that White's most trying lines are the Austrian and the 4.Bg5 lines. However, you have to be prepared to play sharply as White in these lines to test Black. 


condor wrote on 01/26/07 at 14:20:47:
Is there any way white can attain an advantage against the Pirc? According to NCO, with best play black can equalise. The best try was I think 1 e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6 4 Be3 c6 5 h3 or 5 Qd2.

Also, why is the pirc not more popular when seems so much easier to equalize than any other opening?. I hardly ever have to face it as white and it is the 5th most popular reply to e4 on chessgames.com' database.


Hmm...who says the Pirc is much easiar to equalize than any other opening? Far from the truth. The Pirc is not the easist opening to play and there are much better alternatives if Black is striving for solid equality.

  

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Re: Pirc
Reply #2 - 01/27/07 at 21:33:51
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I think there has been something written after Nunn/McNab, a book that's very dry and theoretical in my humble opinion - Pirc Alert was well received in many quarters, and is well worth a look for club level players and below.  I quite liked it and found it very useful, although a large percentage of it's expansive page count was wasted on poor layout, so it's not as densely packed as you might think.  I no longer have my copy of this, but seem to remember it covered the 150 attack well.

And if I may quote Rowson's 'Chess for Zebras' he relates that he was chatting to Michael Adams about the 'various problems with 1.e4' when Adams remarked that there were indeed difficulties, particularly in certain Sicilians, saying 'well, you can't play against the Pirc every day'.

Rowson adds that the elite players consider it 'too generous to White', whilst noting that Pirc players should not take offence at that observation - they should simply accept that at the highest levels the defence isn't played much, and there's a reason that is so....but at sub 2500 level it probably doesn't matter, according to Rowson himself.  

I think Stohl made a similar remark about the Pirc in his 'Instructive Modern Chess Masterpieces' book.  So I suppose what I'm trying to say is that it is perhaps incorrect to think that it equalizes easier than any other opening ( Shocked) as condor suggests, and that the statistics shouldn't be trusted on that one.....  The Sicilian would probably take the title of most likely to equalize, arguably. Wink
  
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Re: Pirc
Reply #1 - 01/27/07 at 20:33:22
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Most people - like Chalifman in OFWAT Anand - think the Austrian Attack is the way to prove an advantage. I also think 4.Be3 c6 (Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 or 0-0 6.0-0-0) 5.h3 idea 6.f4 promising (5.h3 being more useful than 4...c6), but I seem to be one of quite few.
Since Nunn/McNab's Ultimate Pirc there has not been any publication on these systems as far as I know. The big fashion of course is the 150-Attack (4.Be3, 5.Qd2 followed by Nf3) but in my opinion that is somewhat overrated.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Pirc
01/26/07 at 14:20:47
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Is there any way white can attain an advantage against the Pirc? According to NCO, with best play black can equalise. The best try was I think 1 e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6 4 Be3 c6 5 h3 or 5 Qd2.

Does anyone know the status of these lines or any other attempts for a white advantage?

Also, why is the pirc not more popular when seems so much easier to equalize than any other opening?. I hardly ever have to face it as white and it is the 5th most popular reply to e4 on chessgames.com' database.
  
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