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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) (Stupid?) question - Chinese dragon (Read 10840 times)
thibdb13
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Re: (Stupid?) question - Chinese dragon
Reply #17 - 10/27/07 at 20:59:46
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bragesjo wrote on 10/27/07 at 18:48:35:
thibdb13 wrote on 10/27/07 at 18:21:04:
I plaid a game yesterday where white went for g4 after 10 ...-Rb8
The game went so: 1.e4-c5 2.Nf3-d6 3.d4-cd4 4.Nd4-Nf6 5.Nc3-g6 6.Be3-Bg7 7.f3-Nc6 8.Qd2-Bd7 9.Bc4-00 10.000-Rb8 11.g4-b5 12.Bb5?! and now Nd4 13.Bd7-Nf3 14.Qe2-Qb7 15.b3-Qb4 17.Rd3-Ng4 and after this I plaid some unprecise moves and was happy to get a draw.

I think I stood obviously better after move 17 but I am not sure 13...-Nf3 was the best move. Was Nc2 destroying white king's shield not better? (I might then have "finished" my oppponent faster)


I have problems reading themoves. 14 __ Qb7 is not playalbe sicne the Queen is on d8.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4
Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rb8 11. g4
b5 12. Bxb5 Nxd4 13. Bxd7 Nxf3 14. Qe2 Nxe4 15. Qxf3 Nxc3 16. bxc3 Qxd7 * and black wins


Sorry, I forgot 14...Qd7 15.Qf3-Qb7
But you are right, I missed Nxe4
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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bragesjo
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Re: (Stupid?) question - Chinese dragon
Reply #16 - 10/27/07 at 18:48:35
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thibdb13 wrote on 10/27/07 at 18:21:04:
I plaid a game yesterday where white went for g4 after 10 ...-Rb8
The game went so: 1.e4-c5 2.Nf3-d6 3.d4-cd4 4.Nd4-Nf6 5.Nc3-g6 6.Be3-Bg7 7.f3-Nc6 8.Qd2-Bd7 9.Bc4-00 10.000-Rb8 11.g4-b5 12.Bb5?! and now Nd4 13.Bd7-Nf3 14.Qe2-Qb7 15.b3-Qb4 17.Rd3-Ng4 and after this I plaid some unprecise moves and was happy to get a draw.

I think I stood obviously better after move 17 but I am not sure 13...-Nf3 was the best move. Was Nc2 destroying white king's shield not better? (I might then have "finished" my oppponent faster)


I have problems reading themoves. 14 __ Qb7 is not playalbe sicne the Queen is on d8.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4
Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rb8 11. g4
b5 12. Bxb5 Nxd4 13. Bxd7 Nxf3 14. Qe2 Nxe4 15. Qxf3 Nxc3 16. bxc3 Qxd7 * and black wins

  
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thibdb13
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Re: (Stupid?) question - Chinese dragon
Reply #15 - 10/27/07 at 18:21:04
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I plaid a game yesterday where white went for g4 after 10 ...-Rb8
The game went so: 1.e4-c5 2.Nf3-d6 3.d4-cd4 4.Nd4-Nf6 5.Nc3-g6 6.Be3-Bg7 7.f3-Nc6 8.Qd2-Bd7 9.Bc4-00 10.000-Rb8 11.g4-b5 12.Bb5?! and now Nd4 13.Bd7-Nf3 14.Qe2-Qb7 15.b3-Qb4 17.Rd3-Ng4 and after this I plaid some unprecise moves and was happy to get a draw.

I think I stood obviously better after move 17 but I am not sure 13...-Nf3 was the best move. Was Nc2 destroying white king's shield not better? (I might then have "finished" my oppponent faster)
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: (Stupid?) question - Chinese dragon
Reply #14 - 08/22/07 at 06:31:00
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pierre wrote on 04/01/07 at 22:21:07:
Is there some kind of book which deals with the chinese dragon by the way ?

Pierre


Also Dearing's Play the Sicilian Dragon has maybe a third of a chapter on it.  My impression is that it has a more thorough treatment of the sidelines than Martin's book, but that Martin's book has more up-to-date coverage of the main line with some refinements on Black's play.  Martin's book is sample games format, Dearing's is repertoire format.  In general (not just talking about the Chinese Dragon any more), I mostly use Dearing's book (I've been playing the Dragon forever so I'm looking for an easy-to-use format for reference instead of an introduction to new Dragon players) but Martin does have some improvements in at least a couple lines and a few systems not covered by Dearing (I understand what "repertoire book" means, so I'm not meaning this as a criticism of Dearing), so I'm personally very happy to have bought both.
  
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Re: (Stupid?) question - Chinese dragon
Reply #13 - 04/16/07 at 17:53:45
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In the first problem of this thread (the variation with 11.Nxc6 and 12.Bxa7) i play
12...Rb4 13.Bb3 Qa5 with a good position
there is some interesting lines :
A/ 14.Be3 Be6!? with a good attacking position for black
B/ 14.Bd4 Nxe4 15.Nxe4 Bxd4 16.a3 c5 17.Qg5 and the position is about equal
C/ 14.e5!? Qxa7 15.exf6 Bxf6 16.Nd5 Rxb3! 17.Nxf6+ exf6 18.cxb3 Qxa2 19.Qxd6 Qa1+ 20.Kc2 Bf5+ 21.Kc3 Qa7! with good compensation for the exchange

  
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thibdb13
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Re: (Stupid?) question - Chinese dragon
Reply #12 - 04/02/07 at 16:46:37
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pierre wrote on 04/01/07 at 22:21:07:
Is there some kind of book which deals with the chinese dragon by the way ?

Pierre

Andrew Martin's book Starting Out: The Sicilian Dragon has some pages about it.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: (Stupid?) question - Chinese dragon
Reply #11 - 04/01/07 at 22:21:07
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Is there some kind of book which deals with the chinese dragon by the way ?

Pierre
  
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Re: (Stupid?) question - Chinese dragon
Reply #10 - 04/01/07 at 02:58:18
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Hmm, Black seems to have lasting compensation
  
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bragesjo
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Re: (Stupid?) question - Chinese dragon
Reply #9 - 03/16/07 at 09:40:47
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From Fritz 10 opening book

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5.
Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rb8 11. h4 b5 12.
Ncxb5 Na5 13. Na3 (13. Be2 e5) 13... Nxc4 14. Nxc4 Qc7 15. b3 Rfc8 *

  
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Re: (Stupid?) question - Chinese dragon
Reply #8 - 03/16/07 at 08:50:13
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Going to the start position of the h4 variation in the chinese dragon, I have another question.
After the moves: 1. e4-c5 2.Nf3-d6 3.d4-cd4 4.Nd4-Nf6 5.Nc3-g6 6.Be3-Bg7 7.f3-Nc6 8. Bc4-Bd7 9. Qd2-00 10. 000-Rb8 11. h4-b5 this position is:



In his book (starting out: the sicilian dragon), Andrew Martin gives here several possibilities for white: Bxb5, Ndxb5, Nxc6 and Bd5.
Now I'd like to know what is the most apropriate answer for Black if white plays Ncxb5 as Ne5 can be answered by Be2 where a5 is controlled by the white queen and white can exerce some pression on the queenside.


I have the impression that black must have a good game but in blitz I allways lose in such a position  Undecided
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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bragesjo
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Re: (Stupid?) question - Chinese dragon
Reply #7 - 02/02/07 at 13:13:57
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It has been played since it is in Fritz 10 opening book.
Only one game on Rogozenkos disc black and there black played Rb7 and won.

[Event "Gijon op"]
[Site "Gijon"]
[Date "2002.??.??"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Garcia Magadan, Ramon"]
[Black "Baragano Campa, Javier"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B76"]
[PlyCount "44"]
[EventDate "2002.04.??"]
[EventType "swiss"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "ESP"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2002.11.25"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2
Bd7 9. O-O-O O-O 10. Nxc6 bxc6 11. Bc4 Rb8 12. Bxa7 Rb7 13. Be3 Qa5 14. Ne2 Qc7
15. Bd4 c5 16. Bc3 Qb6 17. g4 Bb5 18. Bxb5 Qxb5 19. Ng3 Ra8 20. e5 Rxa2 21. Qe2
Bh6+ 22. Kb1 Rxb2+ 0-1

But Rogozenko recommends Rb4 on his notes to the Chinese claming that black gets long lasting compensation.

Frtiz 10 opening book gives 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5.
Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rb8 11. Nxc6? bxc6
12. Bxa7 Rb4 13. Bb3 Qa5 14. Be3 Rfb8 and Fritz 10 asses this position as slighly better for black.


  
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parisestmagique
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Re: (Stupid?) question - Chinese dragon
Reply #6 - 02/02/07 at 12:37:51
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I think that no human player ever took the pawn on a7, this is very much a computer move.
  
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thibdb13
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Re: (Stupid?) question - Chinese dragon
Reply #5 - 02/02/07 at 11:57:08
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madhacker wrote on 02/02/07 at 11:43:46:
Bear in mind that you're not actually in the "Chinese Dragon" in the move order you've given; is it just a typo, or have f3 (from White) and ...Bd7 (from Black) been omitted for a reason?

You are right, sorry. I have well omitted f3 and Bd7.

And thanks for your explanations Smiley
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: (Stupid?) question - Chinese dragon
Reply #4 - 02/02/07 at 11:43:46
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Bear in mind that you're not actually in the "Chinese Dragon" in the move order you've given; is it just a typo, or have f3 (from White) and ...Bd7 (from Black) been omitted for a reason?

Also, it seems logical to play ...Rb4, followed by going back to b7; after that, put the queen on c7 and push the pawn to c4. You need to avoid getting tricked in the centre, but if you avoid that then White will regret letting you hunt the b3-bishop down with a c-pawn. There's no point in leaving the rook on b4, it doesn't do much except support a pawn advance that you can arrange anyway, and it's more useful stopping e5 and/or Nd5 tricks.
  
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thibdb13
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Re: (Stupid?) question - Chinese dragon
Reply #3 - 02/02/07 at 10:11:06
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parisestmagique wrote on 02/02/07 at 08:26:08:
parisestmagique wrote on 01/31/07 at 14:51:05:
This is not a stupid question because the first reaction is that after 12.Bxa7 Rb4 13.Bb3 c5? the bishop on a7 will be lost but it does not work because of 14.e5! Ne8 15.Bxc5 +- A better try is found in Dearing's book he says 12.Bxa7 Rb4 13.Bb3 Qa5 14.Be3 Rbb8 (sorry it's Rfb8 of course) with good compensation. My Fritz prefers 13.Bb3 Qa8 14.Be3 Rfb8 always with the idea c5,c4.


Have you examples of complete games following this line? (just to see how the compensations are used)
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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