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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Saemisch Variation (Read 50602 times)
Vass
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #58 - 01/25/12 at 10:49:26
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@ NeverGiveUp
Having mentioned Victor Moskalenko's "Revolutionize Your Chess - A Brand-New System To Become A Better Player" (New In Chess, 2009) in another thread, it came to my mind that this book could be of your help about studying your favourite Nimzo Indian's Saemish/Kmoch variations.
More than 50 pages of good analyses sharing many ideas for white from his own experience.  Wink
  
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MNb
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #57 - 01/19/12 at 00:37:52
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Ah, thanks, I reached that position with the moves ...c5 and O-O already played. That makes a huge difference. In that case Black simply can avoid the combination by answering a timely ...h6.
In your sequence 12.O-O might be better, claiming compensation in the form of central dominance after Bxd3 13.Qxd3 h6 14.a4.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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zoo
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #56 - 01/18/12 at 21:15:22
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I had this theme as a variation in a game, indeed White must have played f3-f4-e4-e5 and Black b6-Ba6-Nc6-Na5. 
The quickest route may be 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.f3 0-0 5.a3 Bxc3 6.bxc3 Ne8 7.e4 b6 8.Bd3 Ba6 9.f4 Nc6 10.Nf3 Na5 11.e5 (see diagram).  
* * * * * * * *
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*
Now 11...Bxc4 12.Bxh7+ Kxh7 13.Ng5+ Kg8 14.Qh5 Bd3 is the theme. Here it should work, as Black seems to defend after 15.f5 Bxf5 16.0-0 Bg6 17.Qh4 f6 18.Rf3 fxg5 19.Rxf8+ Kxf8 20.Bxg5 Qc8 21.Rf1+ Kg8 22.Be7 Bf5 23.g4 d6 (by following chessok.com online opening tree, Black lost horribly in Brasket-Bisguier, Puerto Rico 1968, by playing 20...Qxg5, perhaps somebody can post the game). 
All in all, a risky but useful theme to remember, methinks.
« Last Edit: 01/18/12 at 22:28:23 by »  
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MNb
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #55 - 01/18/12 at 00:20:50
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Quote:
..... and sometimes allows for Bxh7+ Kxh7 Ng5+ Kg8 Qh5 Bd3 (a funny theme).

What line exactly are you thinking of? If there is a pawn on f3 then Qh5 is impossible. If there is a pawn on f4 then ...Bd3 is answered with f4-f5. If the pawn is on f2 then it's not the 4.f3 or 6.f3 variation.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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zoo
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #54 - 01/17/12 at 22:29:28
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as for (b), I don't know if a theoretical verdict can be found, but it's popular for good reason, since White gives a pawn and (more importantly) Black's  ...Bxc4 attacks the bishop and sometimes allows for Bxh7+ Kxh7 Ng5+ Kg8 Qh5 Bd3 (a funny theme). Still it's pawn vs attack, perhaps easier to play for Black between same-strength players, but not easy to draw a conclusion.
If you want to play with f3 and a3, isn't it better to start with f3 ? you typically wait for Black to castle or play d5, and then you can play a3, now Bg5 is a threat and Black often has to play Nh5 or Ne8, in fact Black's ...0-0 is good for your attack. Just practical tips, certainly Vass or other people will have more accurate views.
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #53 - 01/17/12 at 13:33:24
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I have played Saemisch with f3 for a long time. People know this now and prepare against me: that's why I've been looking at other variations. In general I've done good shop with the f3 line since quite a lot of blacks go 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bc3:+ 5.bc3: c5 6.f3 d5 7.cd5: Nd5: 8.dc5: (Keres) which is a variation where theoretically black should be OK but practically white is doing fine. Some blacks go 7. ... ed5: which is the Botvinnik variation and clearly better for white. The critical lines as far as I'm concerned are:
(a) 6. ... Nc6 7.e4 d6 8.Be3
(b) 5. ... b6 6.e4 Nc6 followed by Ba6 (very popular)
I do wonder about these lines though - are things really bleak for white? What's the current theoretical verdict? 
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #52 - 01/17/12 at 09:18:53
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Spot on again Vass - 8. ... e5! is a very good move. In several variations the rook an a2 is seriously exposed after this. So my conclusion is that this variation is not very good for white.
« Last Edit: 01/17/12 at 13:20:05 by NeverGiveUp »  
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Vass
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #51 - 01/13/12 at 12:06:32
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Hi, NeverGiveUp! I'm glad you're back after a long absense.  Smiley
And it seems you Never Give Up..  Grin
As for 8.Ra2 (after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bc3+ 5.bxc3 c5 6.e3 Nc6 7.Bd3 0-0) here..I won't play "the natural" 8....b6. The somehow unnatural 8.Ra2 will be met by the unnatural 8....e5!? with the idea of e5-e4 (and even d7-d5) or b7-b6 if d4xc5..  Wink
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #50 - 01/12/12 at 14:55:31
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 09/19/11 at 09:49:41:
One more line for you guys which I've been looking at - strange looking but very interesting and challenging:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bc3:+ 5.bc3: c5 6.e3 Nc6 7.Bd3 0-0 8.Rb1!?
This looks like a beginner's move but is mentioned by Emms in his easy guide. He says "This stange move has some hidden points and is not to be taken lightly."
The point of Rb1 becomes clear in the main line 8. ... b6 9.e4! Now 9. ... cd4: 10.cd4: Nd4:?? loses a piece to 11.e5 Ne8 12.Be4. So black will probably go 9. ... Ne8 after which white can go 10.Nf3 Ba6 11.e5 (threatening Bh7:+) and may be slightly better because the knight on f3 (rather than e2) gives him other possibilities not present in the main line. The knight may go to g5, and to e5 or d2 to support the c4 pawn. I suppose after 8. ... d6!? the best continuation is 9.Ne2 e5 10.e4 steering the game back into mainstream Saemisch.  


Further on this guys - a club mate of mine has now suggested the clever 8.Ra2!? instead of Rb1. At first sight this looks like an even more nonsense move than Rb1 - but consider that Ra2 is a perfectly normal move in the Saemisch: to mobilse the Ra1 and to be able to transfer it to the center or kings side. Again after the natural 9. ...b6 white continues 10.e4! Ne8 (cd4: 11.cd4: Nd4:?? 12.e5 Ne8 13.Be4 +-) 11.Nf3! and white is well placed with the knight on f3. After, say 11. ... d6 play may continue either with 12.e5!? or 12.Be3 e5 13.d5, when the natural Na5 can be met with Nd2.
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #49 - 09/22/11 at 13:47:49
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I can hardly wait!  Cheesy

Ivan Sokolov should write more books because he is a great writer and a great player.
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #48 - 09/22/11 at 03:02:14
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According to Amazon, coming in March 2012:

The Strategic Nimzo-Indian:  A Complete Guide to the Rubinstein and Saemisch Variation by Ivan Sokolov

You just need to be patient.   Cheesy
  
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Vass
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #47 - 09/21/11 at 08:19:35
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 09/20/11 at 10:10:07:
Thanks for this Vass. What do you consider a good source for this interesting line?

The best books for this variation seem to be:
Angus Dunnington "The Nimzo-Indian Rubinstein, The Ever-Popular Main Lines With 4.e3" (2003) and
Carsten Hansen "The Nimzo-Indian, 4.e3" (2002)
But my advice is: Don't rely on books only!.. A good database and a silicon brain will be of invaluable help. My experience is that relying on statistics is wrong, too.. And sometimes even players with ratings below 2500 can hit the best moves (by accident).  Wink
Aaah...and one more thing - even when the silicon tells you 0.00 don't trust it completely and prolong the line if you have a feeling that something has to be there!  In fact, the most exciting "novelties" come that way. Cool
Edit: I forgot to recommend Reinaldo Vera's "The Nimzo-Indian" (2008). And all because of my age.. Eeeh!
  
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Vass
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #46 - 09/21/11 at 07:37:18
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Lee Roth wrote:
[/quote]
In that Saidy-Unzicker line, what do you do after 7..Nxd5?
[/quote]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e3 O-O 5. Nge2 d5 6. a3 Be7 7. cxd5..
Good question! This 7...Nxd5!? is a very serious try for equality. I myself played it with black in four or five of my OTB games. And I never played it with white.. Anyway, it seems one of my opponents knowing that I play Nimzo has been prepared a line in which I struggled very much. This game which is not pleasant for me to remember continued: 8.Bd2! Nd7 9.Qc2! (my marks) not trying to expand with e3-e4 or playing g2-g3 and Bf1-g2 right away. In my analysis after the game I've found I made a dubious move 9...N5f6?! which was the main move at that time. There are several moves for black here, of course.. I suppose 9...N7f6!? is the most appealing. But my feeling that something is not quite good for black here stayed for a long time. After that game I never played 7...Nd5 anymore. Not because it's not good, but because it's difficult to handle in an OTB game. All I can say for this line is that after 8.Bd2, 9.Qc2, Rc1 or Rd1 (if c7-c5) and e3-e4 in the right time white is having at least a minimal edge. One thing I'm sure of is that 9....N5f6 is not good.  Wink
Edit: I remember Angus Dunnington in his excellent "The Nimzo-Indian Rubinstein - The Ever-Popular Main Lines With 4.e3" (2003) explained very well all the problems that white and black can face after 7....Nxd5. I think he recomended this 8.Bd2, too..
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #45 - 09/21/11 at 02:16:50
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Vass wrote on 09/20/11 at 08:49:05:
Yes, Rubinstein with Ne2 was my suggestion (with Qd3 as an improvement). Very subtle line! Of course, it is popular because it's one of the very few lines where white can pretend for more than equality.
You already mentioned you were to read carefully Sokolov's "Winning Chess Middlegames".. He tried several setups for white against Nimzo too.. Maybe you can choose one of these...which can help you to find some chances for your beloved attacking chess.  Wink



In that Saidy-Unzicker line, what do you do after 7..Nxd5?

  
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Re: Saemisch Variation
Reply #44 - 09/20/11 at 19:58:21
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Markovich wrote on 09/20/11 at 16:49:16:
NeverGiveUp wrote on 09/19/11 at 16:09:23:
Yes Dink, 8.Rb1 looks like a beginners move. This may be an advantage in an OTB game, because black may feel he's better already. Actually it's much more subtle than that.


Rb1 is total crap.  Black wants to play ...b6 anyway, for crying out loud. 


You may be right.  But, I have wonder about the following very common sequence:

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 e3 c5 5 Bd3 Nc6 6 Nf3 Bxc3 7 bxc3 d6 8 0-0 e5 9 Nd2 0-0 and now 10 Rb1 b6 is pretty much the main line.

NeverGiveUp's line has lost a tempo with a3, but on the plus side he can happily play Ne2 instead of Nf3 which is supposed to be good vs the Huebner.  But I confess this line isn't in my repertoire for either side, so I don't know all the subtleties...
  
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