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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Best King's Indian attack book? (Read 22073 times)
Nickajack
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #36 - 03/10/17 at 04:10:59
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 03/09/17 at 11:10:13:
Nickajack wrote on 03/08/17 at 02:22:59:
TD wrote on 03/07/17 at 07:16:22:
Why is this posted under "King's Indian"?

Why not? It has a lot in common with the KID, albeit with reversed colors.


A lot of openings are similar to other ones with reversed colors. But if we lumped them all together then you'd have the English with the Sicilian, the Caro-Kann exchange variation with the Queen's Gambit exchange, the Nimzo-Larsen Attack with the Queen's Indian, the Colle with the Semi-Slav, the Catalan with the Grunfeld, etc.



Fair enough. Smiley
  

Dubious, therefore playable Undecided
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #35 - 03/09/17 at 14:36:08
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JEH wrote on 03/24/07 at 17:01:47:
OK, fair point, Jenny and Ptero.

Well from the White games of Fisher in Mega 2007, there are less than 20 with him going Nf3 and into a KIA, and all but a couple of simul games are from 56-57.

There are only 3 total from him using the KIA vs the French after that period, '66 vs Durao, '67 vs Myagmurson and '68 vs Geller. Superb displays of his skill though they are, that is it.

There are more examples of him using it against the Caro-Kann, but still single digits.

So my point is that after his teens, Fisher didn't emply the KIA except as a very occasional surprise weapon.


The explanation is that in his early career Fischer opened with 1 Nf3. he then switched to 1 e4, after which he used the KIA only as an occasional weapon against 1...e6, 1...c5 2 Nf3 e6 and 1...c6.

Dvoretsky's article is a great introduction, covering a wide range of thematic ideas.

BTW I rate highly the book on the KIA by IM Eric Tangborn (for Kindle), which has a great collection of games and pretty good annotations.
  
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BobbyDigital80
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #34 - 03/09/17 at 11:10:13
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Nickajack wrote on 03/08/17 at 02:22:59:
TD wrote on 03/07/17 at 07:16:22:
Why is this posted under "King's Indian"?

Why not? It has a lot in common with the KID, albeit with reversed colors.


A lot of openings are similar to other ones with reversed colors. But if we lumped them all together then you'd have the English with the Sicilian, the Caro-Kann exchange variation with the Queen's Gambit exchange, the Nimzo-Larsen Attack with the Queen's Indian, the Colle with the Semi-Slav, the Catalan with the Grunfeld, etc.
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #33 - 03/08/17 at 18:55:13
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There have been more responses on which forum the topic should be in than responses on the actual topic.

ps: I think it should be in Flank openings.
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #32 - 03/08/17 at 15:39:48
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Nickajack wrote on 03/08/17 at 02:22:59:
TD wrote on 03/07/17 at 07:16:22:
Why is this posted under "King's Indian"?

Why not? It has a lot in common with the KID, albeit with reversed colors.



Because it is not a King's Indian defense, that is why.

It is a completely different opening that does not even come out of 1.d4 systems.

The Flank Openings section should be slightly expanded to include offbeat, miscellaneous openings and it should be sent there.
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #31 - 03/08/17 at 13:49:10
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I propose that for the time being and for practical reasons (searches etc.), this thread is moved to the flank openings, since most threads discussing KIA can be found there.
  

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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #30 - 03/08/17 at 02:22:59
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TD wrote on 03/07/17 at 07:16:22:
Why is this posted under "King's Indian"?

Why not? It has a lot in common with the KID, albeit with reversed colors.
  

Dubious, therefore playable Undecided
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TN
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #29 - 03/07/17 at 13:43:17
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AcuWill wrote on 02/03/07 at 13:56:07:
I'm looking for a book for someone new to the opening but willing to work and isn't shy of heavy reading and thinking.  I would rank my skill level as a sharply rising lower to mid club level player.  I would like a book heavy in explanations to the thought process rather than heavy on variations.  Thanks.


It depends what interpretation you're going for; are you starting with e4, going for Nf3/g3/Bg2/0-0/d3/e4/Nbd2, Nf3/g3/Bg2/c4 or lines with d4?

There have already been some good book recommendations, so I'll propose looking through Amin's games - he's been playing the KIA the 'system opening' way for nearly his whole life. Kramnik's games are great value too, if you're willing to transpose into certain English/d4 systems with c4/d4, although you'll probably find them a bit nuanced for your current level.
  

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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #28 - 03/07/17 at 11:07:08
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Most KIA lines are best thought of as arising from 1 Nf3, I agree, but a few aren't. And with (anti-)French lines, for example, I guess you could make arguments both ways. Does the table below (showing most of the 'Reversed' lines first) help?

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King’s Indian Attack: Defences

Reversed KID, Classical [KID Reversed]

Reversed KID, Seirawan System [Karpov System]

Reversed KID, e3/Nf3 [‘Main Line’ (A08)]

Reversed KID, main-line Fianchetto [KID Reversed]      

Reversed KID, Fianchetto with e3/Ne2 [Kasparov System]

Reversed King’s Indian Attack

Reversed English, Closed (Nc3/Nf3/g3/Bg2/d3)

Reversed English, Botvinnik System (Nc3/Ne2/g3/Bg2/e4)

Reversed English, Bremen System (Nc3/Ne2/g3/Bg2/e3)

Reversed English ((Nc3)/Nf3/e3/Be2)

Reversed English (Nc3/Nf3/e4/Be2) [Czech Benoni line (A04/B30)]

Reversed Pirc, Classical

Reversed Pirc, Fianchetto with Nf3

Reversed Pirc, Fianchetto with Ne2 [Pachman Variation]

Reversed Pirc, Dolmatov System [Dolmatov System]

Reversed Torre Attack [Keres System]

Reversed London System [Lasker System]      

+++++

Caro-Kann/KIA (A04), 1 e4 c6 2 d3 e5 3 Nf3 d6 4 g3 g6 5 Bg2 Bg7 6 0-0 Ne7

Caro-Kann/KIA (A05), 1 e4 c6 2 d3 e5 3 Nf3 d6 4 g3 g6 5 Bg2 Bg7 6 0-0 Nf6

Caro-Kann/Petroff (C42), 1 e4 c6 2 d3 e5 3 Nf3 d6 4 g3 Nf6 5 Bg2 Be7

French/Reversed Philidor, 1 e4 e6 2 d3 d5 3 Nd2 Nc6 4 Ngf3 Nc6 (C00)

French/Reversed Philidor, 1 e4 e6 2 d3 d5 3 Nd2 Nf6 4 Ngf3 (4 g3) b6 (C00)

Hedgehog (...c5/…b6/…e6) (A04)

Hedgehog (...c5/…b6/…g6) (A04)

Queen’s Indian Defence line (…b6/…e6 [RR …c5]) (A05)

Spassky Variation (A05)

  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #27 - 03/07/17 at 11:06:43
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Ptero wrote on 03/24/07 at 15:40:35:
Also not from Fischer's "teens", I recall Fischer-Geller, 1968 (1-0) (that's Uzi Geller, veteran Israeli master and former Israeli Champion - not to be confused with Efim Geller) as a model KIA game.



JEH’s point stands in general even if there are exceptions.

Fischer gave up the KIA because it’s not very good. We know this because we know that chess just isn’t the kind of game where you can succeed by  playing the same thing over and over regardless of how the opponent plays.

That it’s not very good (objectively) doesn’t mean we shouldn’t play it, of course. I suspect most of us are more equivalent to Fischer in his teens than Fischer in his later life in terms of our chess development.

Anyway, I wonder if the OP is still around and still playing the KIA.
  

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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #26 - 03/07/17 at 09:45:12
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ArKheiN wrote on 03/07/17 at 09:05:42:
It should be under 1.Nf3 because many KIA come from the Reti with e4 instead of c4.


I agree, it should come under flank openings as most of the Sicilian and French lines can transpose from 1. Nf3
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #25 - 03/07/17 at 09:05:42
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It should be under 1.Nf3 because many KIA come from the Reti with e4 instead of c4.
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #24 - 03/07/17 at 08:57:37
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Hello.
TD wrote on 03/07/17 at 07:16:22:
Why is this posted under "King's Indian"?
GMTonyKosten wrote on 03/07/17 at 08:37:25:
Yes, it obviously shouldn't be, but where should I move it to? It can arise from a French, ...e6 Sicilian, Réti, and many other openings. Maybe I should start a new sub-section under the French or Anti-Sicilians?
Suggestions are welcome!

French section subforum sounds mot natural to me.

Many Anti-Sicilian KIA's would be able to be discussed in the Closed Sicilian forum. Non-c5 KIA's shouldn't really be discussed on a Sicilian forum on the other hand; therefore French forum seems more reasonable.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #23 - 03/07/17 at 08:54:26
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 03/07/17 at 08:37:25:
TD wrote on 03/07/17 at 07:16:22:
Why is this posted under "King's Indian"?


Yes, it obviously shouldn't be, but where should I move it to? It can arise from a French, ...e6 Sicilian, Réti, and many other openings. Maybe I should start a new sub-section under the French or Anti-Sicilians?
Suggestions are welcome!

Yes, that's a difficult one... Maybe a sub-section under 1. e4 ...?
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #22 - 03/07/17 at 08:37:25
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TD wrote on 03/07/17 at 07:16:22:
Why is this posted under "King's Indian"?


Yes, it obviously shouldn't be, but where should I move it to? It can arise from a French, ...e6 Sicilian, Réti, and many other openings. Maybe I should start a new sub-section under the French or Anti-Sicilians?
Suggestions are welcome!
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #21 - 03/07/17 at 07:16:22
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Why is this posted under "King's Indian"?
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #20 - 03/07/17 at 06:02:38
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Hello.

"how to beat the Sicilian defence" by Gawain Jones (Everyman Chess 2011) has a couple of fairly nice King's Indian attack chapters (he recommends 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d3). Nice reading if you happen to come across the book somewhere.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #19 - 03/06/17 at 20:51:50
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Neil McDonald's KIA Move By Move is the first choice.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #18 - 03/06/17 at 20:19:09
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Resurrecting an old thread, what is the current state of KIA books and which are the top 1 or 2 a newbie to this opening should pick up?
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #17 - 03/28/07 at 18:41:52
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Yussupov wrote some interesting about an opening repertoire behind the KIA in Yussupov/Dvoretzky 'Effektives Eröffnungstraining'.

Regards.
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #16 - 03/28/07 at 18:26:36
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I have the books mentioned previously, other then Emms' and would add KIA by Henley and Maddox as my favourite. I enjoyed about 5 years playing the KIA, first from 1.Nf3 and then after 1.e4, as I built up my e4 repertoire.
After 1.Nf3 the most annoying line I encountered was the symmetrical which is difficult to get anything against. I guess d4 going into the White side of a fianchetto KID is best.
Playing the KIA after e4 lets you build from e.g. an open game and KIA against the rest, adding lines against each semi-open game as you become interested in them.
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #15 - 03/24/07 at 19:16:48
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He still has good annotations to a KIA game in 60 memorable, which you should own anyway.
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #14 - 03/24/07 at 17:01:47
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OK, fair point, Jenny and Ptero.

Well from the White games of Fisher in Mega 2007, there are less than 20 with him going Nf3 and into a KIA, and all but a couple of simul games are from 56-57.

There are only 3 total from him using the KIA vs the French after that period, '66 vs Durao, '67 vs Myagmurson and '68 vs Geller. Superb displays of his skill though they are, that is it.

There are more examples of him using it against the Caro-Kann, but still single digits.

So my point is that after his teens, Fisher didn't emply the KIA except as a very occasional surprise weapon.



  

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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #13 - 03/24/07 at 15:40:35
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Also not from Fischer's "teens", I recall Fischer-Geller, 1968 (1-0) (that's Uzi Geller, veteran Israeli master and former Israeli Champion - not to be confused with Efim Geller) as a model KIA game.
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #12 - 03/24/07 at 11:10:52
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JEH wrote on 03/23/07 at 21:57:01:
Jenny wrote on 03/23/07 at 17:12:43:
So the best way to learn how to play this opening is to study the games of those strong GMs that had used this opening before. (Fischer is one of them)


All the books quote the Fischer games, and excellent though they we're, he played the KIA in his teens and then abandoned it which to me says a lot more about the opening and what he though of it.


Well, Fischer-Miagmasuren was played in 1967 and he definitely wasn't a teen in 1967. Besides, there can be many reasons for a player to play another opening/line. With players like Fischer, playing something else instead of the KIA could only mean that he has found another opening/line which gives him more chances to obtain the advantage than the KIA has to offer. Not to mention the question of suitability.
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #11 - 03/23/07 at 21:57:01
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Jenny wrote on 03/23/07 at 17:12:43:
So the best way to learn how to play this opening is to study the games of those strong GMs that had used this opening before. (Fischer is one of them)


All the books quote the Fischer games, and excellent though they we're, he played the KIA in his teens and then abandoned it which to me says a lot more about the opening and what he though of it.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #10 - 03/23/07 at 17:12:43
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Thr problem with the KIA, as pointed out by others above, is that there are so many different variations and plans that it is not easy to find a source that explains all the available ideas of the opening well. Especially given the fact that the KIA can be played against virtually every opening. So the best way to learn how to play this opening is to study the games of those strong GMs that had used this opening before. (Fischer is one of them) Instead of variations, concentrate on understanding the general pawn structures of the different setups, which square is best for which piece and why and the common ideas that are frequently used in this opening. (Eg. a4 combined with Nc4, Nh2 and f4/Ng4, h4-h5 followed by Ng5 and Qh5 after e5, the tactical idea Bf4 followed by Nxd5 exd5 e6 when the black queen is on c7, etc...) Last but not least, also have a look at which setup is the KIA least effective against and why. (It's least effective against the Caro-Kann setup with an early e5, for example...while it is quite effective against the French setup because white can play e5, etc...)
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #9 - 03/18/07 at 22:02:28
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I only play at freechess.org.  Is there anyone there that I should try to observe?  I am interested in learning how to play both King's Indian Attack and KID.

I've ordered Emm's book as well as Gallagher's books on KID.  Hopefully in a few weeks I'll have a better idea about what I'm trying to accomplish and how to properly react.

Thanks
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #8 - 02/05/07 at 20:13:38
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Jorg Hickl's handle on ICC is hickl and Norwood's is DaveNogood.

Take a look at their finger notes while you're at it, especially Norwood's, its hilarious.

Top Smiley
  

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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #7 - 02/05/07 at 19:35:44
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TopNotch wrote on 02/05/07 at 00:38:14:
AcuWill wrote on 02/03/07 at 13:56:07:
I'm looking for a book for someone new to the opening but willing to work and isn't shy of heavy reading and thinking.  I would rank my skill level as a sharply rising lower to mid club level player.  I would like a book heavy in explanations to the thought process rather than heavy on variations.  Thanks.


I think this query really belongs in the Flank Openings section, as this section is devoted to the Kings Indian Defence.

Nevertheless one way to tackle your problem is to choose a strong player that uses the Kings Indian Attack often and try to model your repertoire accordingly. Two such players I believe are (GM) Jorg Hickl and retired(GM) David Norwood but there are many others to choose from.

Hope that helps.

Tops Smiley



Yes, that is good advice, and it is becoming my preferred method of becoming acquainted with an opening.  Does anyone know Hickl's or Norwood's alias on ICC, or any other FM/IM/GM on ICC with a KIA based repertoire?  (Because it's so amorphous, I haven't found a good way to do ECO searches on the KIA.)

Also, Morozevic has a few KIA games to his credit (some of which can be found on this site).  Also, Chigorin played it in his match against Tarrasch.  Don't know if it was part of his repertoire throughout his career.

I also see references to Dvoretsky's book on opening training whenever the KIA comes up.  Apparently he has a good chapter on opening preparation or something and he uses the KIA as an example.  I don't have this book, but maybe someone else can comment on it.
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #6 - 02/05/07 at 16:01:46
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I went to chessgames.com and couldn't find any games with Emms in which he started with the King's Indian Attack.
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #5 - 02/05/07 at 12:26:09
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You might want to take a look at some of Fischer and Stein's games as well !

Emms is probably the best.  He also recommend it in his attacking with 1e4 repertoire book v French !

Good luck

Andrew Brett
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #4 - 02/05/07 at 04:49:27
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Thank you tops.  I didn't think of that and it's a great suggestion.  It really helps a lot.   Smiley
  
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #3 - 02/05/07 at 00:38:14
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AcuWill wrote on 02/03/07 at 13:56:07:
I'm looking for a book for someone new to the opening but willing to work and isn't shy of heavy reading and thinking.  I would rank my skill level as a sharply rising lower to mid club level player.  I would like a book heavy in explanations to the thought process rather than heavy on variations.  Thanks.


I think this query really belongs in the Flank Openings section, as this section is devoted to the Kings Indian Defence.

Nevertheless one way to tackle your problem is to choose a strong player that uses the Kings Indian Attack often and try to model your repertoire accordingly. Two such players I believe are (GM) Jorg Hickl and retired(GM) David Norwood but there are many others to choose from.

Hope that helps.

Tops Smiley
« Last Edit: 02/05/07 at 17:32:43 by TopNotch »  

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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #2 - 02/04/07 at 14:07:34
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Thank you for the suggestions.  I will look into them.
  
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dsanchez
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Re: Best King's Indian attack book?
Reply #1 - 02/04/07 at 13:36:49
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Starting Out: King's Indian Attack by Emms.
King's Indian Attack by Smith & Hall
Ultimate King's Indian Attack by Angus Dunnington

In my opinion, none provides a very good systematic basis for playing this "system opening."  In part this is due to the nature of the opening itself -- after the first 7 moves (which many consider to be a "system") the options for either side are still endless and there is no really clear objective for either side.  In all 3 books, a lot of the analysis is to the effect of  "Also interesting is 8.c3, while 8.b3 has had some success.  8.c4 is an aggressive attempt to gain space, and 8.Nc3 is passive but sound."

Of the three, I think I would lean towards Dunnington's as providing the best explanation of ideas, although none really stands out over the others.
  
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AcuWill
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Best King's Indian attack book?
02/03/07 at 13:56:07
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I'm looking for a book for someone new to the opening but willing to work and isn't shy of heavy reading and thinking.  I would rank my skill level as a sharply rising lower to mid club level player.  I would like a book heavy in explanations to the thought process rather than heavy on variations.  Thanks.
  
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