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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Petroff 5. Nc3!? - Safe System Against??? (Read 7078 times)
pawneater
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Re: Petroff 5. Nc3!? - Safe System Against???
Reply #10 - 02/23/07 at 23:17:01
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J-dog wrote on 02/16/07 at 01:39:36:
After thinking about it, I think your best bet to steer the game into relatively safe waters is to go for the queenside castling plan. Adams and Anand have used it in some games and have not lost with it (to my knowledge).  It's a fairly simple set up: Be7,Nc6,a6,Be6,Qd7,0-0-0, if a piece (usually knight) lands on g5, you swap it off, then play f6. Then you centralize your rooks on e8 and d8 and swap pieces down the open file. Also sometimes the move h5 comes into play.


What about white's plan with playing c3-c4, transferring the queen to a3 via c3 or d3 and playing c5 at the opportune moment? Black's queen is on d7 so there is a threat of cxd6 winning a d6 pawn (white bishops developed to f4 and e2 and a rook is on d1). Also there is a threat of bishop sacrifice B:a6 with attack, for example after black plays d6-d5 in response to c4-c5. I think there was a game of Kramnik (with white) against someone, featuring this plan. Any ideas how black should play against this?

As a whole this 5.Nc3 variation of Petroff gives an impression that white has very easy to understand strategic plans (which may or may not work) but black's defense/counterplay is based mostly on tactical nuances.

J-dog wrote on 02/16/07 at 01:39:36:

In the kinside castling formations, the Rb8,b5 plan is from Rublevsky-Shirov, Sochi 2006. 
Random thoughts: the queen can usually enter the q-side via d7-c6(a4), or occasionally if the d file is sufficiently cluttered or abandoned (so your weak d6 pawn doesn't get picked on), you could open the back door with c6 to get the queen on a5.  I think I saw an old Marshall or Pillsbury game with that idea.


Stormcrow, if you have those games handy could you please post them here (especially Shirov's game, my database seems too old).
It would be useful to compile a collection of (classical) games with various game plans in this variation for white or black.

By the way there is a recent Shirov's Chessbase DVD on Petroff defense, does he explain the 0-0, Bf6, Rb8, b7-b5-b4 plan on it?
  
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Re: Petroff 5. Nc3!? - Safe System Against???
Reply #9 - 02/16/07 at 05:43:38
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Hi. I may be interested in this line as White. What are the plans for white?  Grin
  

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J-dog
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Re: Petroff 5. Nc3!? - Safe System Against???
Reply #8 - 02/16/07 at 01:45:59
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What do you think about 5.c4  and 6.Nc3..., is this an improved 5.Nc3 system? I think that after 5.c4 white has a better control of the center. 
 
Thx


I think the 5.c4,6.Nc3 system is interesting.  It has slightly better central control, but is one move slower in development.  Sometimes black takes advantage of this and avoids Nxc3 and instead plays Ng5, something that's not available in 5.Nc3 (there's no Be7 yet). Not sure which system is better, but they are my two favorite ways of meeting the Petroff, both fairly interesting to play.
  
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J-dog
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Re: Petroff 5. Nc3!? - Safe System Against???
Reply #7 - 02/16/07 at 01:39:36
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After thinking about it, I think your best bet to steer the game into relatively safe waters is to go for the queenside castling plan. Adams and Anand have used it in some games and have not lost with it (to my knowledge).  It's a fairly simple set up: Be7,Nc6,a6,Be6,Qd7,0-0-0, if a piece (usually knight) lands on g5, you swap it off, then play f6. Then you centralize your rooks on e8 and d8 and swap pieces down the open file. Also sometimes the move h5 comes into play.

In the kinside castling formations, the Rb8,b5 plan is from Rublevsky-Shirov, Sochi 2006. 

Random thoughts: the queen can usually enter the q-side via d7-c6(a4), or occasionally if the d file is sufficiently cluttered or abandoned (so your weak d6 pawn doesn't get picked on), you could open the back door with c6 to get the queen on a5.  I think I saw an old Marshall or Pillsbury game with that idea.
« Last Edit: 02/16/07 at 19:52:10 by J-dog »  
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Re: Petroff 5. Nc3!? - Safe System Against???
Reply #6 - 02/15/07 at 12:52:20
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Wow...

Con you suggest some players/games to learcn such intersting ideas ?? (Rb8 - b5 - Bf6 and Bf6 - Qa5 plans)
I've found no such games!!

PS about c4 and Nc3 i think it's a very different game because white central pawns get the game into
a "normal" Petroff way after a well timed d5.
  
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Re: Petroff 5. Nc3!? - Safe System Against???
Reply #5 - 02/15/07 at 07:59:24
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What do you think about 5.c4  and 6.Nc3..., is this an improved 5.Nc3 system? I think that after 5.c4 white has a better control of the center.

Thx
  

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Re: Petroff 5. Nc3!? - Safe System Against???
Reply #4 - 02/15/07 at 02:51:46
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Kramnik's recent effort vs. Karjakin seemed smooth: short castle, h6, the Bishop didn't go to f6, but instead he traded it on g5.  I think his maneuver Qd7-c6 was a good idea.

I think both castling short and going queenie are viable, just decide which suits yer taste.

Shirov's short castling idea seems exciting, as noted above: Rb8 and b5, etc.  That's getting that rook into the game.  Most games I've won in this line I've looked over and seen the queen rook sittin on a8 almost 100% of time until it was way too late.
  
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Re: Petroff 5. Nc3!? - Safe System Against???
Reply #3 - 02/15/07 at 00:31:05
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I've played this with white, and I can definitely say that you must get the Bishop to f6.  That's a big deal.  On the whole, I would agree with Inn2's strategy.  Most wins that I've gotten out of this position have come from one or both of the following factors: 1) bad defence of a ...0-0 position, usually including or resulting from risky pawn grabs on the k-side that open lines. 2) insufficiently active Queen and Rook(s). This is what I play against when I don't have a free attack on the king. Usually the white pieces have the chance to be much more active than their counterparts.   

If you can get the black queen to a5 or c6 or b4, you have good chances to cause some disruption, veritcally (vs. a,b pawns) and laterally (defending important central and k-side squares).

Trying too hard to win is definitely a common sin for the white player in this position.  I've eaten dirt several times trying to force things.  I can see how many white players lose on time.  Work out your black defensive setups and blitz away, putting white under the gun.   

As for White, I think the best way to go is to play for the attack as much is allowed, but always have the eagle eye on opportunities to shift the play into a favourable ending.  I remember seeing some high level encounters (I forget which) that featured exactly that.  I was really impressed by that and it made me want to keep playing this line.

I'll post again if I can figure out some of those games that were instructive to me (for white and black).   

Good Luck.
  
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Re: Petroff 5. Nc3!? - Safe System Against???
Reply #2 - 02/14/07 at 15:03:47
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hello, i play the petroff occasionally in blitz. normally i go 5... Nxc3. follow White by castling queenside too, and trade all the major pieces on the e-file, usually Whites try too hard to win , and end up losing on time =)   

The Black king is fairly safe on the queenside, but not always.. (think there was a Gelfand game in recent NIC yearbook where White attacked successfully)
  
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Re: Petroff 5. Nc3!? - Safe System Against???
Reply #1 - 02/14/07 at 14:57:25
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check some Shirov games as Black - especially a nice attacking win - dont ask me to remember it but basically the plan is take on c3, put a bishop on f6, a rook on b8 and push the b-pawn.
  
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Petroff 5. Nc3!? - Safe System Against???
02/14/07 at 14:15:24
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Hi. Im a Petroff player.

My problem is that after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 d6 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Nc3 i dont know 
a safe system to play against...

I've tried systems with 5...Nf6 but white has iniziative without any kind of counterplay...
So i tried the principal variation with 5...Nxc3 6. dxc3 but i cant play it very well...
Maybe i didnt understand very well black ideas, but im often brutalized...

Can you help me???
  
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