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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Books Covering the Ideas Behind the Berlin ? (Read 20303 times)
Justinhorton
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Re: Books Covering the Ideas Behind the Berlin ?
Reply #19 - 03/23/07 at 14:43:26
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Mind you if the game really only lasted two minutes he may have had some inkling that this was going to happen, otherwise you'd have expected him to stop and think about whether he really wanted to do that.
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Books Covering the Ideas Behind the Berlin ?
Reply #18 - 03/23/07 at 12:34:16
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Do you mean Parker or Nunn? Parker did it because this line is incredibly dull and equal unless Black wants to grab the pawn and probably lose. Nunn did it, I suppose, because he hoped Parker would be desperate to win and would avoid the draw, giving Nunn his chance.

Also I think Parker probably wanted to send the message 'F*ck you, we both know I'm a good player and I'm going to be a GM anyway, so if you don't want to give me my chance today that doesn't bother me. And by the way this is no way for a GM to be playing with the white pieces.'

Which I think he accomplished.
  
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Justinhorton
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Re: Books Covering the Ideas Behind the Berlin ?
Reply #17 - 03/23/07 at 11:47:29
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I don't know if I'm being particularly stupid (I am not seated at a chessboard, which is where I usually express my stupidity) but why did Parker do that?
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Books Covering the Ideas Behind the Berlin ?
Reply #16 - 03/23/07 at 11:15:58
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Yeah, but equally the situation and type of player who's going to want to make a draw with White can be foreseen in advance and avoided as well.

As to the Four Knights, the only White player I've ever seen do this sort of thing was John Nunn himself. A 4NCL game against Jon Parker where the latter needed to win with Black to become a GM. One can see the plan, but he chose the wrong customer: 4...Nd4 5 Nxd4 exd4 6 e5 dxc3 7 exf6 Qxf6 8 dxc3 Qe5+ 9 Qe2 Qxe2+ and Black offers a draw (nice touch, as Jon would say) two minutes into the session. Doc exits right sheepishly. Legend.

7 a4 by itself isn't dull at all; it's only if they later play 10 exd6. You can always try and keep the pawn, of course. I haven't really investigated that yet, but I suspect if it's a must-win game and your opponent is in the frame of mind where he's praying for a draw, it's perfectly acceptable for Black.
  
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Justinhorton
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Re: Books Covering the Ideas Behind the Berlin ?
Reply #15 - 03/23/07 at 10:37:09
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Indeed so, and there's no decent alternative to 3...Nf6.

I think Nunn's old Four Knights book covers the give-me-tedium-or-give-me-death lines like 5.Bxc6. I think you do need to take on c3 or else White stays a pawn up (none of the ways of gambitting the pawn looks particularly promising). Horrid.

I'd say though that there's a difference between there being an annoying line in the Four Knights and there being one in the Spanish, which is that the former is a sideline that you won't often meet. So if you have to either play the position or do something risky, once in a blue moon, then that's chess.

With your main line, though, the line you're expecting to be able to play over and again for years, do you really want to be sitting there every time thinking "Oh God, I hope they don't play 7.a4"? If anybody's OK with that, then that's fine. I have a friend who plays the bishop sacrifice line in the 6.Ne5 Slav, where White has a drawing line: his view is that the line is rarely played at club level anyway and even if it comes up, the chances of the opponent both knowing the line and wishing to play it are slim. Which is a point of view, but I tend to think I'd want to have an alternative available for when it really matters. (As it happens, the one time I've seen him play the bishop sacrifice was in a vital London League promotion match against a much lower-graded opponent. The opponent didn't play the drawing line, though the game was drawn!)

In the league I play in, you know several days in advance who opponents are going to be and which colour you will have. This does make it possible for people to prepare drawing lines.....
  
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Re: Books Covering the Ideas Behind the Berlin ?
Reply #14 - 03/23/07 at 10:14:36
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Just 4...Nxe4, Laramonet.

Gosh, Justin, I dunno. 5 Bxc6 - never heard of such a thing. It doesn't look too threatening, certainly. Do I play 6...Bxc3 then? And if dc I exchange queens and claim his king gets in the way? And if bc we just carry on?

It's probably an unhealthy paranoia on my part, but I've always found the main Scotch Four Knights line really really dull. Every game I ever see with it ends in a draw. But as you say White has a few ways of making 1 e4 e5 quite tedious. You can sometimes see this kind of player coming, but otherwise you just have to put up with it, I guess.

I'm afraid I'm just going to say 4 Nc3 gives a Four Knights and you should buy Mihail Marin's fine book on the subject. After all whatever line of the Ruy you play he might go 3 Nc3.
  
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Justinhorton
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Re: Books Covering the Ideas Behind the Berlin ?
Reply #13 - 03/23/07 at 08:58:41
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IMJohnCox wrote on 03/22/07 at 15:16:57:
Do you think? 4...Bb4 is perfectly interesting and competitive, I'd say.


I'd like to agree but aren't lines with 5.Bxc6 and 6.Nxe5 more than a little grim?

It's pertinent to the Berlin of course because 4.Nc3 gives us a Four Knights.

IMJohnCox wrote on 03/22/07 at 15:16:57:
Now an interesting line against 4 d4 really would be handy.


At club level I find the 5...Bb4 lines serviceable enough but higher up the food chain this may not be the case...
  
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Laramonet
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Re: Books Covering the Ideas Behind the Berlin ?
Reply #12 - 03/22/07 at 18:27:26
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Hello John / all,
           Will the book just cover 4.0-0 Ne4 or will you cover 4...., Bc5 as well ?
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Books Covering the Ideas Behind the Berlin ?
Reply #11 - 03/22/07 at 15:16:57
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Do you think? 4...Bb4 is perfectly interesting and competitive, I'd say.

Now an interesting line against 4 d4 really would be handy.
  
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Justinhorton
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Re: Books Covering the Ideas Behind the Berlin ?
Reply #10 - 03/22/07 at 15:14:33
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IMJohnCox wrote on 03/22/07 at 12:18:11:
Haven't done that line yet. But it's always a mistake to worry about a specific equalising line White has. Like people obsessing about the French Exchange - absurd.


I don't quite agree John. It depends on the equalising line. Of course it's true that unless it's a forced draw it's not a draw and of course there are a lot of lines in any opening by which White can make it hard for Black to play for a win (as, for instance, any experienced 1...e5 player will find out). And of course what's a likely draw when players are rated 2500+ FIDE isn't so likely when they're 150 ECF.  Nevertheless it's helpful to find something which makes previously pain-in-the-backside lines a bit, shall we say, richer in content.

(A good specific example would be 4...Bd6 in the Four Knights.)
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Books Covering the Ideas Behind the Berlin ?
Reply #9 - 03/22/07 at 12:18:11
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Haven't done that line yet. But it's always a mistake to worry about a specific equalising line White has. Like people obsessing about the French Exchange - absurd.

Just the Berlin Wall line.
  
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Justinhorton
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Re: Books Covering the Ideas Behind the Berlin ?
Reply #8 - 03/22/07 at 09:33:39
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In Kaufman's book he finds it difficult to come up with a line against (if I recall rightly) 7.a4 that gives Black any winning chances. Have you had any more luck?

Are you just covering the Berlin Wall line or are you also doing 5....Be7? 4...d6?
  
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Re: Books Covering the Ideas Behind the Berlin ?
Reply #7 - 03/15/07 at 14:40:18
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Due to be delivered at the end of May, ano. I suppose it would be out three months or so after that.
  
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Re: Books Covering the Ideas Behind the Berlin ?
Reply #6 - 03/14/07 at 23:44:13
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When is John's book on the Berlin wall out?
  
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dsanchez
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Re: Books Covering the Ideas Behind the Berlin ?
Reply #5 - 02/17/07 at 16:20:16
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I've always thought it would be an interesting experiment if the author of one of these books would teame up with someone in his target audience read the book before it goes to final proof just to make sure he's on the mark.  Of course, that would inevitably cause a delay, and perhaps increase the cost of production. But the final result might be interesting.
  
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