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Normal Topic C25 C30: Building an f5 Counter-Gambit Repertoire (Read 11648 times)
Markovich
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Re: Building an f5 Counter-Gambit Repertoire
Reply #8 - 03/21/07 at 12:52:08
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urusov wrote on 03/20/07 at 21:35:45:


Good luck with your repertoire.


Yeah, you'll need it.
  
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urusov
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Re: Building an f5 Counter-Gambit Repertoire
Reply #7 - 03/20/07 at 21:35:45
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The King's Counter-Gambit or Adelaide Counter-Gambit is fully playable.  I've put together a bibliography on it here and may eventually get around to some analysis:
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian/2007/03/adelaide-counter-gambit...

And 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 f5 is rather playable if you transpose to the Philidor Counter-Gambit after 3.Nf3 d6!  The recent Philidor Files book suggests this is not so good, but then offers analysis showing Black is fine.  You can find more on these lines here:
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~goeller/urusov/bishops/f5.htm
Lately I think White's best response may be 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 f5 3.Nc3! Nf6 4.d3 followed by a quick f4!  You gotta fight fire with fire.

Good luck with your repertoire.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Building an f5 Counter-Gambit Repertoire
Reply #6 - 03/19/07 at 12:41:01
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Looks like a bad case of Gambit Psychosis.  Personally I like to win, so I would never consider 3...f5? after 1. e4 e5  2. Nf3 Nc6  3. Nc3 or 3. Bc4.

I played it against 3. Bb5 for a long time, but I came to the conclusion that it's unsound.

There are already enough reasonably sound, active defenses after 1...e5, why play these unsound ones?  My opinion.
  
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Re: Building an f5 Counter-Gambit Repertoire
Reply #5 - 03/18/07 at 10:42:30
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In the Amber tm, the Schliemann has been played twice so far...  Smiley

F Vallejo Pons (2679)
L Aronian (2744)

Amber Rapid (1)
Monte Carlo MNC, 2007

1. e4 e5 2. Sf3 Sc6 3. Lb5 f5 4. Lxc6 dxc6 5. Sc3 fxe4 6. Sxe4 Sf6 7. De2 Lg4 8. h3 Lh5 9. d3 Dd5 10. g4 Lf7 11. Sc3 Lb4 12. O-O Lxc3 13. bxc3 e4 14. dxe4 Dxe4 15. Dxe4+ Sxe4 16. Te1 O-O 17. Txe4 Ld5 18. Sd2 Lxe4 19. Sxe4 Tae8 20. Sc5 Te1+ 21. Kg2 Td8 22. Sd3 Td1 23. Sb2 Te1 24. Sd3 Td1 25. a4 a5 26. Sb2 Te1 27. Sd3 Td1 28. Kf3 b6 29. Ke2 Tg1 30. Lb2 Te8+ 31. Kf3 Tf8+ 32. Ke2 Te8+ 33. Kf3 Tf8+ 34. Ke3 Te8+ 35. Kd2 Txa1 36. Lxa1 Te4 37. Sb2 b5 38. f3 Te6 39. c4 bxa4 40. Sxa4 Th6 41. Le5 Txh3 42. f4 Tg3 43. g5 h5 44. gxh6 gxh6 45. Sc3 h5 46. Se4 Tg2+ 47. Ke3 h4 48. Kf3 Tg1 49. Kf2 Td1 50. f5 a4 51. Ke2 Td8 52. Lxc7 Tf8 53. f6 a3 54. Kf3 a2 55. Le5 Kf7 56. Kg4 Kg6 57. Lc3 Ta8 58. Kxh4 a1=D 59. Lxa1 Txa1 60. Kg4 Tf1 61. c3 Tf5 62. Kg3 Kh5 63. c5 Kg6 64. Kg4 Tf1 65. Kg3 Kf5 66. Sd2 Tg1+ 67. Kf2 Tg6 68. Sf3 Txf6 69. Ke3 Th6 70. Sd4+ Ke5 71. c4 Th3+ 72. Sf3+ Ke6 73. Ke4 Th5 74. Sd4+ Kd7 75. Sf5 Kc7 76. Sd4 Kb7 77. Se6 Ka6 78. Kd4 Ka5 79. Sd8 Th6 80. Kc3 Ka4 81. Sf7 Th5 82. Kd4 Kb4 83. Sd6 Th4+ 84. Se4 Txe4+ 85. Kxe4 Kxc4 86. Ke3 Kxc5 87. Kd3 Kb4 0-1

V Kramnik (2766)
T Radjabov (2729)

Amber Rapid (1)
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1. e4 e5 2. Sf3 Sc6 3. Lb5 f5 4. Sc3 fxe4 5. Sxe4 Sf6 6. Sxf6+ Dxf6 7. De2 Le7 8. Lxc6 dxc6 9. Sxe5 Lf5 10. O-O O-O 11. d4 Ld6 12. c3 Le6 13. f4 Tae8 14. Le3 Df5 15. b3 a5 16. Tae1 a4 17. c4 axb3 18. axb3 h5 19. h3 Dh7 20. g4 hxg4 21. hxg4 Lxe5 22. dxe5 Dg6 23. Tf2 Dxg4+ 24. Dxg4 Lxg4 25. Ta2 Kf7 26. Ta7 Lc8 27. Kf2 Th8 28. Tg1 g6 29. b4 Td8 30. b5 cxb5 31. cxb5 Th2+ 32. Tg2 Txg2+ 33. Kxg2 Le6 34. Kf2 Ld5 35. b6 cxb6 36. Lxb6 Tc8 37. Ta5 Ke6 38. Lc5 Tc6 39. Tb5 Kf5 40. Ld6 Tc2+ 41. Ke3 Lc6 42. Ta5 Tc4 43. Ta8 Te4+ 44. Kd3 Txf4 45. Tf8+ Kg4 46. Txf4+ Kxf4 47. e6+ Kf3 48. e7 g5 49. Kd2 g4 50. Ke1 Lb5 51. Lc7 g3 52. Lb6 Kg2 53. Lc7 Le8 54. Ld6 Lh5 55. Lc7 Lf7 56. Ld6 Le8 57. Lc7 b5 58. Ld6 Lh5 59. Le5 Kh3 60. Kf1 b4 61. Kg1 b3 62. Lb2 Le8 63. Lc3 Lc6 64. Lb2 Kg4 65. Lc3 Kf3 66. Lb2 Ke2 67. e8=D+ Lxe8 68. Kg2 1/2-1/2
  
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Jonathan Tait
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Re: Building an f5 Counter-Gambit Repertoire
Reply #4 - 03/17/07 at 10:22:25
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I've played all these:

1 e4 e5 2 Bc4 f5
1 e4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 Bc4 f5
1 e4 e5 2 f4 Nc6 3 Nf3 f5
1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Bc4 f5
1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Nf3 f5
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 f5
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 f5
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 f5

Smiley
  
blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: Building an f5 Counter-Gambit Repertoire
Reply #3 - 03/15/07 at 13:26:05
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FusterCluck wrote on 03/15/07 at 02:41:09:
Indeed, getting "creative" is the entire purpose of such an unorthodox repertoire.  Regarding the game you posted... i definitely prefer the 4...Nf6 move order.  The same attack theme doesn't work for white:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 f5 4.d4 Nf6 aiming to castle asap 5.Nxe5 [5.Bc4 d6] 5...Nxe5 6.dxe5 Nxe4 7.Bc4 Qh4.  White must find other means of attack and black is not without counterplay.

What mess is there after 7.Nxe4 fxe4 8.Qd4 (or anything else sensible). Looks to me that you prolly lose a pawn or get into a bad position.
Quote:

The Gothic defense is obviously a tactical mess... but could be a lot of fun!   Does your gut instinct tell you that it is any worse than the Colorado Gambit?  One thing worth noting is that if go with my "PLAN A" gambits, i don't think i'll have to face this nearly as often as the Ruy Lopez / Italian formations, whereas the Colorado practically begs white to play the best variant early on.

If your opinion is that all these gambits are garbage...  i would really appreciate any ideas you have for an alternative "agressive yet unorthodox" system or two vs. Nf3 and Nc3 that doesn't require reams of theoretical knowledge.

I think most are "garbage", though prolly playable, but the f5-version against the Giuoco is one of the worst versions.
If you are focused on the move f5, you may want to check into various lines with d6 (iso Nc6) and f5 such as in the Philidor (though of course you lose the Jaenisch option which is one of the best lines with f5). These are usually also "garbage", but are a bit more safe. Plus of course you have the Falkbeer against the KG and a similar line against the Vienna.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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FusterCluck
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Re: Building an f5 Counter-Gambit Repertoire
Reply #2 - 03/15/07 at 02:41:09
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Indeed, getting "creative" is the entire purpose of such an unorthodox repertoire.  Regarding the game you posted... i definitely prefer the 4...Nf6 move order.  The same attack theme doesn't work for white:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 f5 4.d4 Nf6 aiming to castle asap 5.Nxe5 [5.Bc4 d6] 5...Nxe5 6.dxe5 Nxe4 7.Bc4 Qh4.  White must find other means of attack and black is not without counterplay.

The Gothic defense is obviously a tactical mess... but could be a lot of fun!   Does your gut instinct tell you that it is any worse than the Colorado Gambit?  One thing worth noting is that if go with my "PLAN A" gambits, i don't think i'll have to face this nearly as often as the Ruy Lopez / Italian formations, whereas the Colorado practically begs white to play the best variant early on.

If your opinion is that all these gambits are garbage...  i would really appreciate any ideas you have for an alternative "agressive yet unorthodox" system or two vs. Nf3 and Nc3 that doesn't require reams of theoretical knowledge.
  
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Re: Building an f5 Counter-Gambit Repertoire
Reply #1 - 03/15/07 at 01:40:06
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GM Ludek Pachmann in Moderne Schachtheorie I, Offene Spiele (1980) and Euwe/Samarian in De Opening 11C, Open Spelen III give this line:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 f5? (way too risky, E/S) 4.d4 fxe4 5.Nxe5 Nf6 6.Bc4 d5 (better Qe7 according to P) 7.Nxd5! Nxd5 8.Qh5+ g6 9.Nxg6 hxg6 (Nf6 loses immediately because of 10.Bf7+) 10.Qxg6+ (according to the Bilguer 10.Qxh8 Qf6 11.Qxf6 is also good for White) Kd7 11.Bxd5 and White has a very strong attack: Qe8? 12.Bf7 Qe7 13.Bg5 Ne5 14.Qf5+ 1-0, Breyer-Balla, Bad Pistyan 1912.
If you want to make this look decent, you will have to show some creativity, I am afraid.
  
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C25 C30: Building an f5 Counter-Gambit Repertoire
03/14/07 at 22:10:20
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I'm looking to expand my repertoire with some gamibts for those times i'm up against weaker opposition or otherwise just in the mood for an exciting game.  This 2nd string "agressive repertoire" is based around the Nimzowitch defense (1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 e5).  It dawned on me that the forcing nature of f pawn counter gambits could make for a relatively compact repertoire vs. 2.Nf3, 2.Nc3 and 2.f4.  I have a few questions:


Q1:   Are these lines playable up to say the 2200 level?

1. e4 Nc6 2. f4 e5 3. Nf3 f5     King's Counter Gambit (recommended by Tony Miles)
1. e4 Nc6 2. f4 e5 3. Nc3 f5     Vienna Counter Gambit (slightly more risky)
1. e4 Nc6 2. f4 e5 3. Bc4 f5     Bishop's Counter Gambit (Fritz seems to think it's quite sound)


Q2:  When white plays 2. Nf3 I have two systems i'm considering.  The first option is a group of counter gambits that are backed by some theory.  The 2nd option is the highly unorthodox Colorado counter gambit, which dictates play very early on. There seems to be more logic in thrusting the e pawn first, since it justifies the early Nc6 move.  Which plan would you choose to unsettle your opponent?

PLAN A
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nf3 e5 3. Bb5 f5     Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez (probably the most sound gambit of the whole lot)
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nf3 e5 3. Bc4 f5     Rousseau Conter Gambit (possibly dubious, but unlikely to be refuted over the board)
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nf3 e5 3. c3 f5     Ponziani Counter Gambit (maybee not quite as sound as 3... d5, but good annoyance value)

PLAN B
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nc3 (or d3) fxe     Colorado Gambit Declined (black gets a dominant center)
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nf3 f5 3. e5 d6     Colorado Gambit Advance (black is cramped but may win a pawn)
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nf3 f5 3. exf d5     Colorado Gambit Accepted (white can build up some pressure)


Q3:  When white plays 2. Nc3 I will want to offer transposition into whichever system i'm using against Nf3.  With Plan A, the response which is most troublesome is 3.Nf3, which invites the boring italian/4 knights game.  3... f5 looks very interesting, but I can't find any theory anywhere on this so called "Gothic Defense".  If i choose to play the Colorado defense vs. Nf3, I certainly don't want to play 2... e5 here, forcing me to learn more theory.  But, suprisingly the Colorado response 2... f5 looks almost playable.  And again, white has few playable options.   Do either of these look decent?
 
PLAN A
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nc3 e5 3. f4 f5     Vienna Counter Gambit
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nc3 e5 3. Nf3 f5 4. Bb5 Nf6     Schliemann Defense (modern treatment)
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nc3 e5 3. Nf3 f5 4. Bc4 fxe     Rousseau Counter Gambit (an excellent variant for black)
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nc3 e5 3. Nf3 f5 4. d4 Nf6     Gothic Defense (chaotic but looks playable)
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nc3 e5 3. Nf3 f5 4. exf Nf6     Gothic Gambit Accepted (black should castle quickly) 
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nc3 e5 3. Bc4 f5     Gothic Vienna (intending Nf6 followed by d5 with a gain of tempo)
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nc3 e5 3. g3 f5     Gothic Paulsen (again intending Nf6 followed by d5 and a strong center)

PLAN B
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nc3 f5 3. Nf3 fxe4     Colorado Vienna Classical (again black gets a big center if white develops casually)
1. e4 Nc5 2. Nc3 f5 3. d4 fxe4     Colorado Vienna Declined (tricky knight play)
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nc3 f5 3. exf Nf6     Colorado Vienna Accepted (the most testing try)
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nc3 f5 3. e5 Nxe5     Colorado Vienna Advance (white looses a pawn)
« Last Edit: 07/27/11 at 15:38:49 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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